critique my lager recipe please

[fluketamer]

5.5 gallons

9.5 lbs of briess pilsner
1 lb of vienna
4 oz of acid malt


1.5 oz of halertau mittelfreu 2.8 % at 60
1 oz saaz 2.2% at 10

34/70 one pack warm fermented at 72 and 12 psi. dry pitch

(last time i did this it ran a 1055 wort to 1008 in 4 days! with no off flavors. )

 

[tracer bullet]

It'll make a lager! Assuming tap water with minimal minerals and some Na-Meta to remove chlorine / chloramine?

Are you going for any style in particular? Or just ensuring you aren't missing anything?

I might consider just 1 hop throughout, and then making it again with another hop the next time? Almost SMASH like but not exactly.

 

[jdauria]

It looks good, though as a traditional lager brewer, I shudder at seeing lager yeast at 72! What style of lager are you aiming for? You may need more hops though if say you are shooting for a German Pils, per my calculations with the low alpha acid in those hops, you will only be around 18 IBUs when that style calls for closer to 40. If it's supposed to be an American Lager, then you are good, though if it were me I would add flaked rice or flaked corn. If a Helles, maybe up the Hallertau to 2 ounces and cut the Vienna back to 1/2 lb.

 

[AlexKay]

One thing to think about is replacing some more (or even all of the) Pilsner with Vienna. No statement about tradition or authenticity, but I find that even for pale lager, the audience I brew for (myself, friends, homebrew club members, BJCP judges) like the taste of Vienna a lot better.

 

[fluketamer]

It'll make a lager! Assuming tap water with minimal minerals and some Na-Meta to remove chlorine / chloramine?

Are you going for any style in particular? Or just ensuring you aren't missing anything?

I might consider just 1 hop throughout, and then making it again with another hop the next time? Almost SMASH like but not exactly.

filtered tap to remove chlorine. i just like to make sure i make a balanced beer . i have done the one hop ( sounds like a dance) i like the 2 better.

It looks good, though as a traditional lager brewer, I shudder at seeing lager yeast at 72! What style of lager are you aiming for? You may need more hops though if say you are shooting for a German Pils, per my calculations with the low alpha acid in those hops, you will only be around 18 IBUs when that style calls for closer to 40. If it's supposed to be an American Lager, then you are good, though if it were me I would add flaked rice or flaked corn. If a Helles, maybe up the Hallertau to 2 ounces and cut the Vienna back to 1/2 lb.

once the fall starts my cellar says a steady 71-72 degrees for the next 2 months. i tried a warm pressure fermented 34/70 and it was cleaner than most of my lagers at 50's. so this doesnt scare me. and this frees up ferm chamber space etc.
i prefer german lagers and will add more bittering hops. i can make an american corn or rice lager but prefer the maltier lagers now that i can make them decent.

One thing to think about is replacing some more (or even all of the) Pilsner with Vienna. No statement about tradition or authenticity, but I find that even for pale lager, the audience I brew for (myself, friends, homebrew club members, BJCP judges) like the taste of Vienna a lot better.

i use the vienna to make the lager golden instead of straw and find that its easier to make a good golden lager than a good straw pilsner. ( no surprise)

will adding more vienna like 80 / 20 or 70/ 30 not make it significantly darker? (i dont like drinking amber colored beers)

thanks for all the replies this really helps

 

[AlexKay]

I use 80/20 Vienna/wheat for lager, and 80/20 Vienna/corn for cream ale, and would still characterize them as “golden.” Not pale, but definitely well short of amber. YMMV.

 

[J.Miller]

Yeah, vienna, great tasting malt and I like your grist and ferment recipe. Since these other details were not provided, you might want to try decoction (one or two), and a 2 week condition rest at 48° before lagering with or without decoction.

 

[fluketamer]

decoction seems easy enough but i read a few threads that kind of said it doesnt do much on a homebrew scale. i think i saw a brulosohpy also where the difference was not discernable.

what do you mean by a 2 week condition rest at 48?

also the acid amount is a guess. i figured 4- 6 oz of acid malt would get me to around pH 5.2 ish from my tap water which is 7. i have seen most recipes call for about 4 oz.
but i have only rough ph measurement with strips

 

[JohnDBrewer]

What temp you going to mash at?

 

[fluketamer]

low like 148 for 75 mins
i like my beers dry (especially my lagers) and it seems like when i mash lower they dry out better.

 

[AZ Maverick]

That's very similar to my 5.4 gallon Munich Helles BIAB beer recipe.
Here's mine:
9 lb German Pilsner 2row
1 lb Vienna
4 oz Victory
I use lactic acid to run the pH down to 5.3 and mash at 152°F for 90 minutes
1.5 oz Hallertau 60 minutes
.5 oz Hallertau 20 minutes
OG 1.050
34/70 fermented at 52°F then raised to 68°F for diacetyl rest, total fermentation time is 10 days
FG 1.010
Lager at 38°F for 4 weeks then cold crash at 32°F and keg.

​

 

[Willy]

low like 148 for 75 mins
i like my beers dry (especially my lagers) and it seems like when i mash lower they dry out better.

When I want a dry batch... I will do a 3 step mash. 138 mash in, 10 min, 144 15 min, and 152.5 for 40, mash out at 167, sparge. This seems to release more fermentables into "the good stuff".

 

[wepeeler]

When I want a dry batch... I will do a 3 step mash. 138 mash in, 10 min, 144 15 min, and 152.5 for 40, mash out at 167, sparge. This seems to release more fermentables into "the good stuff".

I do a 131 15 min, 145 45 min, 158 15 min. Same idea. Super fermentable wort!

 

[Willy]

I do a 131 15 min, 145 45 min, 158 15 min. Same idea. Super fermentable wort!

It does the job. Different fermentables at a wider mash range. Brutzyme is an additional tweek for brut dry.

 

[hottpeper13]

I use 4 oz of acidulated malt with RO water to get a 5.2 pH on that malt bill.

 

[fluketamer]

this is cool how there so many ways to achieve similar results. looks like my next batch will be my first step mash.

thanks for all the replies

 

[Beermeister32]

i prefer german lagers and will add more bittering hops. i can make an american corn or rice lager but prefer the maltier lagers now that i can make them decent.

For a maltier lager, I’d remove the 10 minute Saaz addition and maybe move it to 30 minutes. Malty lagers don’t use a lot of late hop additions. Also, I’d use some purchased bottled spring water, best seven bucks you’ll spend.

German lagers are malt only, don’t be tempted to ‘Muricanize’ it with corn or rice! Put your fermenter in a tub and ice bath, wet T-shirt or whatever you can figure to get that temp down. Try doing a starter for your yeast if possible. Prost!

 

[J.Miller]

decoction seems easy enough but i read a few threads that kind of said it doesnt do much on a homebrew scale. i think i saw a brulosohpy also where the difference was not discernable.

what do you mean by a 2 week condition rest at 48?

also the acid amount is a guess. i figured 4- 6 oz of acid malt would get me to around pH 5.2 ish from my tap water which is 7. i have seen most recipes call for about 4 oz.
but i have only rough ph measurement with strips

fluketamer, decoction is not needed with the modern, highly modified malts, per what others have said. In my experience, and also others have said, decoction helps with more malty taste, head foam, and longer beer shelf storage stability.
The conditioning 48° rest is after your diacetyl rest and before your cold crash. I read somewhere the conditioning is optional only for conventional lager yeast, and not for lutra, not for warm fermenting 34/70 yeast, and not for California lager yeast. I read its to condition the beer when yeast is still active for smoothing out flavors.
When I used pH strips, I had difficulty testing dark wort that affected the color of the strip. I bought a pH meter after that. Water profile calculators have the weight of acid malt needed to get to desired pH based on the malts used for the recipe.
All this optional stuff is fun for me to do; I understand that other homebrewers won't need to do the optional stuff. Hey, the best beer is always the beer you brewed yourself.
Have fun!

 

[tracer bullet]

I think decoction could be fine, but I might do it the 2nd or 3rd time I made a recipe. 1st brew to see if it's alright, 2nd brew to tweak the recipe a little, 3rd brew try decoction as the only change to see if it's any better or worth it.

 

[ntempleton]

5.5 gallons

9.5 lbs of briess pilsner
1 lb of vienna
4 oz of acid malt


1.5 oz of halertau mittelfreu 2.8 % at 60
1 oz saaz 2.2% at 10

34/70 one pack warm fermented at 72 and 12 psi. dry pitch

(last time i did this it ran a 1055 wort to 1008 in 4 days! with no off flavors. )

Depending on where the IBUs land, this sounds like a fine Helles inspired lager. I haven't used Briess Pils in a very long time, and while I'm sure it's a fine malt, it isn't German. If you're trying for a accurate German style lager, you'll really need to start using German malts. If you're not fussy about such things, I'm sure this grain bill will make a fine beer. Please forgive my digression, I'm a life long German brewer.

I'd keep the 2 hop additions. That little touch of Saaz in the finish is really going to shine with this beer. Speaking of hops, have you calculated IBUs? The 60min addition seems a bit low to me.

Concerning step mashing. A single infusion at 146-148f for 45-60mins is going to be just fine. Many national and international awards have been gained with lagerbier that was made this way. However, if you really want to step mash, and I certainly don't blame you, I'd recommend the Hochkurz schedule. Step mashing is going to really dry this beer out, so you may want to account for that in the recipe. I wouldn't be surprised that your see a final gravity of 1.005-1.006 using this step mash schedule.

• Beta amylase rest: 144°F (62°C) for 30 to 45 minutes
• Alpha amylase rest: 160°F (71°C) for 30 to 45 minutes
• Mash out: 170°F (77°C) for 10 to 15 minutes

Happy brewing Friend. Lagers for life!

 

[crazyjake19]

Grain bill looks good. I'd remove the Saaz altogther, get the fermentation temperature down at least 10º, and do a 90-minute boil unless that was implied. Personally, I'd do a single decoction, but not necessary if you don't have a means to decoct.

 

[Broothru]

Grain bill looks good. I'd remove the Saaz altogther, get the fermentation temperature down at least 10º, and do a 90-minute boil unless that was implied. Personally, I'd do a single decoction, but not necessary if you don't have a means to decoct.

Two to 4 oz of melanoidin malt in a 5 gallon batch grist bill is a good hack to ‘simulate’ a detoction mash. It really enhances the malt profile without the extra mess or effort, but is very easy to overshoot the desired effect if you overdo the amount. Six oz. would be too much for the average 5 gallon batch.

 

[crazyjake19]

Two to 4 oz of melanoidin malt in a 5 gallon batch grist bill is a good hack to ‘simulate’ a detoction mash. It really enhances the malt profile without the extra mess or effort, but is very easy to overshoot the desired effect if you overdo the amount. Six oz. would be too much for the average 5 gallon batch.

It can add some more character to a simple grain bill but it won't replace a decoction.

 

[Broothru]

It can add some more character to a simple grain bill but it won't replace a decoction.

Didn’t mean to imply that it would replace a detoction mash, only that it was a “hack” to mimic the effects. But in the final analysis, when you perform a detoction, what exactly are you accomplishing?

You are creating melanoidins.

A short cut to achieving this in your finished beer is to add a small amount of malt that has already been ‘processed’ to produce this desired outcome.

Case in point: I recently entered a Kolsch and a Helles in a local competition, Kolsch was “Bitter European Beer” and the Helles was “Malty European Beer” by BJCP classification. The Kolsch was detoction mashed, the Helles had 4 oz. of melanoidin. Both won 1st Place in their category, but the Helles won Best of Show.

The judging panel was comprised of professional brewers. I brewed both beers about a week apart on the same equipment using very similar grist bills and German hops, though different yeasts. If the pro brewers think the melanoidin produced the superior beer, I’ll bow to their judgement.

 

[fluketamer]

so i went with
8 lbs of pilsner
2 lbs of vienna
.25 lbs acid malt

mashed at 148 for 60 mins. mash out 168 for 15 mins. sparged with 170

90 min boil
2 ounces of HM at 60
1 oz saaz at 10

i got 5.5 gallons at 1.051

chilled to 70.
i pitched 1 pack of cellar science german its already got kreusen i am going to put the spund on and set to 12 psi and keep it at 70.

this one should be good.

 

[ntempleton]

so i went with
8 lbs of pilsner
2 lbs of vienna
.25 lbs acid malt

mashed at 148 for 60 mins. mash out 168 for 15 mins. sparged with 170

90 min boil
2 ounces of HM at 60
1 oz saaz at 10

i got 5.5 gallons at 1.051

chilled to 70.
i pitched 1 pack of cellar science german its already got kreusen i am going to put the spund on and set to 12 psi and keep it at 70.

this one should be good.

Did you calculate ibu? Also, if you can bring the fermentation temp down a few degrees, I'd recommend it. I find there's a noticeable difference between 68f and 70f, even under pressure. 65f is even better, but not worth stressing over.

 

[fluketamer]

my hops AA was really low ( that seems to be a trend lately) brewers friend had it come out to 24 ibus i think.

i can bring it down. ill drop it down to 68. i wanted to run it on the warmer side to speed it up since it worked last time. about an hour after i capped it the kreusen immediatly started to get smaller.

i am excited for this one. i started serving from the FV and it helps retain hops aroma and flavor. im thinking the spund might also help with aroma and flavor.

 

[ntempleton]

my hops AA was really low ( that seems to be a trend lately) brewers friend had it come out to 24 ibus i think.

i can bring it down. ill drop it down to 68. i wanted to run it on the warmer side to speed it up since it worked last time. about an hour after i capped it the kreusen immediatly started to get smaller.

i am excited for this one. i started serving from the FV and it helps retain hops aroma and flavor. im thinking the spund might also help with aroma and flavor.

Generally speaking, hop fields are not irrigated in Europe. Less rain directly equates to lower alpha acids. It's a safe assumption that any European grown hops are going to continue to be lower (and likely continue to decrease) alpha acids.

 

[G_robertus]

Generally speaking, hop fields are not irrigated in Europe. Less rain directly equates to lower alpha acids. It's a safe assumption that any European grown hops are going to continue to be lower (and likely continue to decrease) alpha acids.

Why wouldn't we irrigate our hop fields? These things take enormous amounts of water to grow so I'm fairly certain they are irrigated. There is a protocol from Czechia that says to irrigate as well when necessary. Perhaps when there is enough rain they won't. Or when it will endanger the drink water supply due to drought, but that goes for most crops. Irregular weather definitely influences (European) hop and grain cultivation, but usually that is in combination with severe drought and/or heavy rainfall. There have been certain hops that have had as little as 1.7% AA due to this, but we've been hit with droughts for the past couple of summers. This year we've also been hit with severe rainfall and flooding in some areas. I'm afraid European grain and hops will be terrible this season as well.

 

[fluketamer]

early tastings hint at a very good lager.

cellar science german at 68 degrees and 12 psi tastes great. and it ripped through my 1.051 wort in just 6 days. fg 1.010 for abv of 5.3.

slow crashing it now. i stopped adding finnings to my beers since i started serving from the FV. so this may take a little longer to clear but it will be worth it.

i have to figure a decent way to add finnings without opening.

thanks for the help on this (warm, pressure fermented) lager ,