Crazy yeast bag idea?

[hugenjapan]

I'm making a single vessel system (BIAB) and was also hoping on fermenting in the same vessel until I just read about sludge that builds up in the bottom of the fermenter. I've never actually brewed beer before but I work at a place that makes craft brewing systems. Since I'm doing BIAB I don't think I would get too much particles of grains and whatnot and I'm also using a very fine mesh hop canon type of thing that I made for my hops so I don't think I'll get hops particles building up. What I'm wondering about is the yeast building up at the bottom. Would it be possible to have a fine mesh bag for the yeast to sit in or would that just make it not able to spread around in the wort. I know I'm kinda crazy but I like to simplify things.

 

[Yooper]

I'm making a single vessel system (BIAB) and was also hoping on fermenting in the same vessel until I just read about sludge that builds up in the bottom of the fermenter. I've never actually brewed beer before but I work at a place that makes craft brewing systems. Since I'm doing BIAB I don't think I would get too much particles of grains and whatnot and I'm also using a very fine mesh hop canon type of thing that I made for my hops so I don't think I'll get hops particles building up. What I'm wondering about is the yeast building up at the bottom. Would it be possible to have a fine mesh bag for the yeast to sit in or would that just make it not able to spread around in the wort. I know I'm kinda crazy but I like to simplify things.

Yeast is microscopic, so I'm not sure what a mesh bag would do.

You want to mash, boil, and ferment in the same vessel as a goal?

 

[hugenjapan]

I just don't see a point in changing to a different vessel just for fermenting. I like to simplify and I don't have a lot of room to brew

 

[day_trippr]

Running with the idea a bit further, what's the problem with "particles" piling up during fermentation? It happens - every time - regardless of anything one does, so trying to eliminate that is pointless. If you want to mash, boil, cool and then ferment in the same vessel, go for it.

Of course, unless you're going to chill the beer and serve it from the same vessel (!) you'll have to rack the beer off the trub/yeast/hop debris to whatever package you're planning on using...

Cheers!

 

[kjackson82]

Will you be able to lock the top down on the vessel and create some kind of airlock to let the co2 escape without letting oxygen in?

I have only been brewing since feb but I did learn that poor sanitation (including not sealing w/airlock) was the one big mistake that leads to having to dump a batch. I have yet to have to dump one but I recommend spending the $9 on a fermenting bucket and finding a space for the 1.5' x 2.5' (guessing) bucket to sit quietly, cool and out of the light. But if you can airlock your kettle then by all means have at it. The stuff at the bottom won't hurt anything as my first two batches didn't siphon very well and I dumped EVERYTHING in the primary and left it. Both were great beers!

 

[kjackson82]

Oh.. And get ready! If your anything like me, once you get your feet wet there is no looking back! Awesome hobby/fetish if you don't mind tasting a lot of great beers, making some great beers and just flat out enjoying the sweet smell of wort in the morning (I like to brew in the morning)!

 

[hugenjapan]

Thanks everyone. I was actually planning on bottling straight from the mash/kettle/fermenter so yes the trub will be a problem and I heard that letting the wort ferment on the trub for too long will be bad for it. Yes I will be making the lid screw down. I'm choosing to do this instead of buying a plastic bucket because it's 36 gallons so I'll need multiple buckets. Here's a pic of what I've done so far (the ring around the top and bottom edges is to have an inch and a half between the inner shell and the outer clad for the insulation to go in between).

 

[feinbera]

36 gallons? That's gonna be, like, 50-100 lbs. of *DRY* grain per batch, easily two or three times that weight wet... I hope you have some idea how you're going to lift that in and out of the kettle and suspend it to let it drain.

If you're bottling straight from the vessel, you're either going to have inconsistent carbonation (from not mixing your bottling sugar well enough) or cloudy, yeasty beer (from kicking up the trub when you stir enough to get that bottling sugar mixed in). The latter is fine, if you don't mind cloudy, yeasty beer, or if you don't mind leaving the bottles in the fridge for a week or two to let the suspended yeast settle into a compact cake on the bottom.

Finally, with healthy modern yeast and a good understanding of fermentation temperatures and pitching rates, leaving your beer on the yeast isn't nearly as much of an issue as it used to be, or as it is in commercial breweries, where the yeast is sitting in the pointy end of a conical fermenter with hundreds and hundreds of gallons of beer pressing down on it. If you're bulk-aging for multiple months, you have to worry, but a few weeks of fermentation and dry-hopping, you'll be fine.

 

[ThatOneGuy]

This is nuts. Subscribed!

 

[kjackson82]

Like feinbera said, the bottling straight out of that is gonna be hit or miss. Even the cloudiness, that really isn't much of a problem as it mainly effects appearance, will be worse in some bottles than others and could possibly be so bad in some bottles that it will effect taste. Seems you need to find a food grade 50 gallon plastic drum to bottle from. That way you can pull it off the trub and mix the appropriate primer before you bottle which will give you more consistency throughout the 400+ bottles. Not to mention you don't want to take shortcuts and have to sort through 400+ bottles because some just plain taste bad!

 

[Doongie]

I hope you have some idea how you're going to lift that in and out of the kettle and suspend it to let it drain.

This^^^^^

However, a smaller vessel solves that problem.

Bottling from the fermentation chamber is actually probably possible, without too much trouble, the worry would be oxidation.

Think about making the bottom of the vessel conical, with a drain, so the trub can be removed BEFORE bottling. Placement of the drain for bottling will affect how much waste you have. Again, the troublesome part is how to stir in the sugar without stirring in oxygen.

The first most obvious answer is to use something like these Fizz Drops from Northern Brewer. http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/nb-fizz-drops-8-oz.html , or find another way to ACCURATELY measure and add sugar to each bottle before filling. There are several brands of tablets, and while the ones I linked to are 1 per bottle forcing consistent carb levels from batch to batch, I believe there are other tablets and also liquid drops available, which may allow variable carbonation levels according to style.

Next best would be to add the sugar to water, then add the water to the vessel, but the stirring required for proper distribution of the sugar solution in the beer will be difficult without introducing oxygen, which is your enemy at this stage of the process.

Good luck!

 

[kombat]

I just don't see a point in changing to a different vessel just for fermenting.

Maybe you should ask every brewery everywhere and see why they waste their time doing it?

 

[broadbill]

The reason most people ferment in a separate container than the one they brew in is they typically do not want to tie up their brewing container for as long as it takes wort to ferment.

IF that does not concern you then go for it.

I remember seeing old beer recipes where they boiled extract, let it cool then fermented right in the kettle. You aren't the first person run with this idea.

 

[Skep18]

This is nuts. Subscribed!

36 gallon BIAB! I'm in. Please record video(s)!!!

Subscribed!

 

[Doongie]

they typically do not want to tie up their brewing container for as long as it takes wort to ferment.

I wasn't thinking, this is the biggest reason. You can only brew as much as you have space for in your fermenters. It's not very economical to have a separate set of brewing equipment for each fermenter, which is effectively what the op is proposing.

The other challenges have several possible solutions.

 

[fuzzy2133]

I have to see where this goes.

 

[BlackGoat]

very curious. As far as some sanitation concerns raised earlier, keep in mind that for hundreds of years beer was fermented in open vessels with no cover on top at all. In fact, some of the best beers in the world in Belgium still do this. Definitely subscribed to see how the issues of grain weight are dealt with.

 

[Ramitt]

Starting out with that big of batches is crazy. It takes practice to make good beer, I am glad my first dozen were small. Not to mention bottling that much, good lord 5 gallon batches led me to kegging.

 

[Seven]

I'm making a single vessel system (BIAB) and was also hoping on fermenting in the same vessel until I just read about sludge that builds up in the bottom of the fermenter. I've never actually brewed beer before but I work at a place that makes craft brewing systems. Since I'm doing BIAB I don't think I would get too much particles of grains and whatnot and I'm also using a very fine mesh hop canon type of thing that I made for my hops so I don't think I'll get hops particles building up. What I'm wondering about is the yeast building up at the bottom. Would it be possible to have a fine mesh bag for the yeast to sit in or would that just make it not able to spread around in the wort. I know I'm kinda crazy but I like to simplify things.

Thanks everyone. I was actually planning on bottling straight from the mash/kettle/fermenter so yes the trub will be a problem and I heard that letting the wort ferment on the trub for too long will be bad for it. Yes I will be making the lid screw down. I'm choosing to do this instead of buying a plastic bucket because it's 36 gallons so I'll need multiple buckets. Here's a pic of what I've done so far (the ring around the top and bottom edges is to have an inch and a half between the inner shell and the outer clad for the insulation to go in between).

Why 36 gallons? Seems odd for someone who has never brewed before?

 

[BigFloyd]

Maybe you should ask every brewery everywhere and see why they waste their time doing it?

That's what I was wondering.

How do you plan on sealing this all-in-one vessel after you've pitched yeast so that it doesn't get infected? How is CO2 going to get out without letting micro-bugs in? Where will this thing sit while the beer ferments? What's the temp there?

 

[hugenjapan]

36 gallons? That's gonna be, like, 50-100 lbs. of *DRY* grain per batch, easily two or three times that weight wet... I hope you have some idea how you're going to lift that in and out of the kettle and suspend it to let it drain. If you're bottling straight from the vessel, you're either going to have inconsistent carbonation (from not mixing your bottling sugar well enough) or cloudy, yeasty beer (from kicking up the trub when you stir enough to get that bottling sugar mixed in). The latter is fine, if you don't mind cloudy, yeasty beer, or if you don't mind leaving the bottles in the fridge for a week or two to let the suspended yeast settle into a compact cake on the bottom. Finally, with healthy modern yeast and a good understanding of fermentation temperatures and pitching rates, leaving your beer on the yeast isn't nearly as much of an issue as it used to be, or as it is in commercial breweries, where the yeast is sitting in the pointy end of a conical fermenter with hundreds and hundreds of gallons of beer pressing down on it. If you're bulk-aging for multiple months, you have to worry, but a few weeks of fermentation and dry-hopping, you'll be fine.

I'm thinking of using multiple bags if I find that it's too heavy. Is there no filter fine enough to put in the drain to try to keep the trub from draining into the bottle? I know that craft breweries use a tangential to whirlpool their trub to the centre of either their kettle or whirlpool but they don't have any yeast at that point so I don't know if whirlpooling would help me. Thanks for your input btw

 

[hugenjapan]

This^^^^^ However, a smaller vessel solves that problem. Bottling from the fermentation chamber is actually probably possible, without too much trouble, the worry would be oxidation. Think about making the bottom of the vessel conical, with a drain, so the trub can be removed BEFORE bottling. Placement of the drain for bottling will affect how much waste you have. Again, the troublesome part is how to stir in the sugar without stirring in oxygen. The first most obvious answer is to use something like these Fizz Drops from Northern Brewer. http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/nb-fizz-drops-8-oz.html , or find another way to ACCURATELY measure and add sugar to each bottle before filling. There are several brands of tablets, and while the ones I linked to are 1 per bottle forcing consistent carb levels from batch to batch, I believe there are other tablets and also liquid drops available, which may allow variable carbonation levels according to style. Next best would be to add the sugar to water, then add the water to the vessel, but the stirring required for proper distribution of the sugar solution in the beer will be difficult without introducing oxygen, which is your enemy at this stage of the process. Good luck!

Other than a steam jacket, how could I heat a conical kettle/mash tun/fermenter? This could be a stupid question but couldn't I add the sugar straight to the fermenter (Open the lid and add it)? People have open fermenters so wouldn't opening the lid be the same thing just not for as long. Thanks for the tips btw

 

[hugenjapan]

Maybe you should ask every brewery everywhere and see why they waste their time doing it?

Ya I'm actually gunna go out and do that.. I'll be back in a couple years. Thanks but your addition to this thread is not needed

 

[hugenjapan]

Starting out with that big of batches is crazy. It takes practice to make good beer, I am glad my first dozen were small. Not to mention bottling that much, good lord 5 gallon batches led me to kegging.

Just cause my tank is that big doesn't mean I have to start out with batches that fill the whole pot (I think).

 

[hugenjapan]

Why 36 gallons? Seems odd for someone who has never brewed before?

I chose 36 gallons because there's a homebrewer at work that's always saying that his 50L system isn't big enough. I also wanted something as tall as wide. And since I'm making it myself why would I want to start with a small system then wish I made a bigger one after a year or two.. It's not cheap to make these things

 

[hugenjapan]

That's what I was wondering. How do you plan on sealing this all-in-one vessel after you've pitched yeast so that it doesn't get infected? How is CO2 going to get out without letting micro-bugs in? Where will this thing sit while the beer ferments? What's the temp there?

See the rings around the top and bottom edges on the tank? That's not only for the insulation/cladding but on the top one I'll be drilling holes and and welding bolts in with the heads of the bolts in where the insulation will be (the threads will stick up above the top of the tank so I can make the lid match with holes and bolt it down with a gasket between). This is only if I actually decide to seal it (I may open ferment). CO2 would get out with a pressure relief valve. It will sit under the stairs. Not sure the temp but I live in a city where it rains a lot!

 

[Seven]

I chose 36 gallons because there's a homebrewer at work that's always saying that his 50L system isn't big enough. I also wanted something as tall as wide. And since I'm making it myself why would I want to start with a small system then wish I made a bigger one after a year or two.. It's not cheap to make these things

Yes but building too large of a kettle may also be an expensive mistake if you find out later it's too big, or it doesn't work out for whatever reason. Maybe it's just me but it seems you are putting the carriage in front of the horse by building a very large brew kettle and concocting crazy "yeast in a bag" schemes without first understanding the basics of brewing. How do you know your ideas are going to save space and save time if you haven't tried the more traditional methods first?

 

[hugenjapan]

GFY. I was pointing out that every professional brewer ever does it the conventional way (boiling in one vessel, fermenting in another), and so perhaps they know something that hasn't occurred to you.

Sorry when I read it it just sounded uncalled for. I know that they ferment in different vessels so they can start a new batch in the brewhouse. I didn't know there were other reasons. Here's a pic of some of the fermenters I worked on. Too bad they don't explain the process well at my work they just give you the blueprints and say "hey make this".

 

[hugenjapan]

It's going slow cause I'm only working on it on my half an hour lunch break. I have the drain done.

 

[tagz]

I'd agree that your best bet is to drain the trub. If you could make some kind of slant at the bottom that would make it a bit easier. This will also allow you to harvest yeast.