Crazy Idea...Centrifuge Fermenter

[Dr_Jeff3]

So I just dry hoped an IPA I’m working on and obviously my beer is hazy with hop matter. Now I expect this to mostly settle in a week or so, plus I will filter before bottling. BUT what if your carboy was on a turntable with a speed control? When you were ready to bottle, regardless of what’s in suspension, you could turn it on and, just like a blood centrifuge, all the particulate would cling to the sides of the carboy and you could rack crystal clear beer from the center! If this has already been thought up please direct me to the thread. Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Rotating the fermenter will cause motion (i.e. agitation), which will increase the turbidity.

Welcome to HBT!

 

[bracconiere]

damn i've got my box fans going listening to them....and started laughing about a stir plate for a mega yeast starter..

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Centrifuges are used in commercial brewing as a way to filter particulates out of the beer. I have read about these in several brewing books, most memorably in “Brew Like A Monk” on Trappist beers. You should make a homebrew version.

 

[cgriffith]

@Dr_Jeff3, I too have had this same idea. One issue would be to counter balance the weight of one fermenter on opposite side of rotating disc with another. The next obvious issue would be how fast would you need to spin the fermenter to make it worth the effort and do so safely. Typical centrifuges run at 7500 to 10k rpms for 15-30 min.

 

[mongoose33]

Centrifuges are used in commercial brewing as a way to filter particulates out of the beer. I have read about these in several brewing books, most memorably in “Brew Like A Monk” on Trappist beers. You should make a homebrew version.

I agree 100 percent. Plus, then post a detailed set of plans and a parts list complete with links to vendors selling them.

*******

I have a Spike CF10 unitank. I'm still trying to visualize spinning that thing and wondering what happens when it is imbalanced by the ports on one side.

A traditional carboy would work better, nothing sticking out. But having said that, one answer is to make a hazy IPA, and thus the cloudiness is not a bug, it's a feature!

 

[mongoose33]

Rotating the fermenter will cause motion (i.e. agitation), which will increase the turbidity.

Welcome to HBT!

It will initially, but as speed picks up, wouldn't all that stuff be essentially plated against the side of the fermenter?

Wonder what would happen to the stuff on the side of the fermenter when spinning stopped. Would it stay there or would some of it start to settle, creating more turbidity?

 

[Jayjay1976]

A cheaper, easier, and safer way to clear beer is to use finings. To spin 5 gallons of beer up to 10k rpm safely would require a pretty robust vessel, support structure, and properly designed bearings to handle the dynamic loads. IMHO, sourcing a suitable vessel would be the hardest part, it also needs to maintain a seal to prevent oxidation.

An easier method would be to build a much smaller centrifuge, out of a high speed juicer perhaps, and slowly pump the beer through it and into a receiving vessel like a keg or something that can be purged with CO2.

You also might find a used lab centrifuge on ebay, I've seen them before.

 

[kh54s10]

I can't imagine the equipment necessary to spin a carboy fast enough for that to work. Then you would need to keep it going while transferring for kegging or bottling. Once the level is low enough the sediment slung to the wall of the fermenter would start to fall back into the cleared liquid. I can't imagine that you could get the same amount out cleanly, so you would have to stop when the beer started getting cloudy again. You would be losing quite a lot of beer.

If you stopped the spin, what was on the sides would fall back in

 

[Yesfan]

I agree 100 percent. Plus, then post a detailed set of plans and a parts list complete with links to vendors selling them.

*******

I have a Spike CF10 unitank. I'm still trying to visualize spinning that thing and wondering what happens when it is imbalanced by the ports on one side. ..............

What about using the motor out of an electric ice cream maker? The old school ones stirred from the top, so I figured you could make it to where it sits on the 4" port of the conical. One drawback is they are noisy, but I have no idea how hard it would be to retrofit one to a conical.

 

[Jayjay1976]

What about using the motor out of an electric ice cream maker? The old school ones stirred from the top, so I figured you could make it to where it sits on the 4" port of the conical. One drawback is they are noisy, but I have no idea how hard it would be to retrofit one to a conical.

Ice cream makers are extremely slow. You're not churning ice cream here, you're attempting to generate several hundred Gs to pull heavier solids out of suspension. As stated previously, this will be several thousand RPM.

This is a bad idea. Unless you have an engineering background, access to some high-precision machinery, and some deep pockets, you'll soon find yourself in a dead end.

Edit: sarcasm detected...

 

[Dr_Jeff3]

I’m going to put together some tests and find out for myself. I will post my setup and findings, both objective and subjective, here!
Wish me luck!

 

[RPh_Guy]

It will initially, but as speed picks up, wouldn't all that stuff be essentially plated against the side of the fermenter?

Wonder what would happen to the stuff on the side of the fermenter when spinning stopped. Would it stay there or would some of it start to settle, creating more turbidity?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_paradox
Spinning the carboy along the vertical axis works nothing like a centrifuge because of the motion of the fluid.

 

[Dr_Jeff3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_paradox
Spinning the carboy along the vertical axis works nothing like a centrifuge because of the motion of the fluid.

Right just like whirlpooling! But the article you shared cites that this phenomenon occurs when there is friction with the teacup. Implying that the teacup is motionless and the liquid is stirred. I’m suggesting spining the vessel with the liquid eliminating that friction.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Here’s what a commercial one looks like. $100,000. A bargain at twice the price. Brew series

 

[kh54s10]

Just a thought. You spin the carboy. The glass turns and the liquid doesn't.........

 

[Dr_Jeff3]

Just a thought. You spin the carboy. The glass turns and the liquid doesn't.........

Correct...at first. After continuous spinning the liquid will gain momentum and overcome it’s inertia and will spin at the same velocity as the carboy.

 

[mongoose33]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_paradox
Spinning the carboy along the vertical axis works nothing like a centrifuge because of the motion of the fluid.

Wouldn't the fluid eventually start spinning as well? I'm not trying to be contentious--I don't know a lot about fluid dynamics. It's not going to be a whirlpool, at least I doubt that it would.

 

[mongoose33]

What about using the motor out of an electric ice cream maker? The old school ones stirred from the top, so I figured you could make it to where it sits on the 4" port of the conical. One drawback is they are noisy, but I have no idea how hard it would be to retrofit one to a conical.

To be honest, I think this is killing a fly with a sledgehammer. Or a rocket-propelled grenade.

There are simpler methods that seem to work--using finings, letting things settle out during conditioning. Without knowing OP's brewing setup and processes, hard to say if this is the best place he could be placing his attention.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wouldn't the fluid eventually start spinning as well? I'm not trying to be contentious--I don't know a lot about fluid dynamics. It's not going to be a whirlpool, at least I doubt that it would.

Yes, there will be fluid in motion throughout the proposed process, causing turbulence. The turbulence will increase the amount of suspended solids. Think of a yeast starter on a stir plate.

The centrifuges used in commercial brewing are highly advanced (and expensive), something we can't replicate at home.

 

[bleme]

Something like this might do the trick...

Disclaimer: The above comment was meant in jest.
I would never suggest anyone follow in Mr. Furze's footsteps.
I'm genuinely surprised they guy is still alive!

 

[Cptblamo]

I am not sure the OP exact goals, but I think a used top loaded washer or dryer might be enough. If u were just looking to spin a carboy creating force towards the outside like a whirlpool, one might fit. Even a keg could easily fit. If you were looking to force the particles to the bottom, you could move the beer to smaller fermenters and spin them. Maybe 2 or 3 one or half gallon fixed to the bottom. Of course this is a over simplification. U would need to bypass the lid, the water, the heat, and anything else. But the motor might be strong enough and it wouldnt cost too much.

 

[day_trippr]

Oh yeah, if you could figure out how to get rid of the drive shaft that runs most of the way to the lid of a top-loading washer, it'd surely spin fast enough.

Is there such a thing as a top-loading dryer?

Cheers!

 

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Take it down to the playground and strap it to the merry-go-round!

But, seriously, how fast would we need to spin? If you stir up a lot of sediment, how long does it take to settle under 1G (normal gravity)? Probably several hours? So you probably need to spin fast enough to produce several G’s, if not 20-30.
Centripetal acceleration = v^2/r
Let’s say r=0.1m, so we would need v ~ 1m/s to produce 1G (9.8m/s^2)
If we spin the bucket axially, that’s between 1-2 revolutions per second. If we spin 2x as fast we get 4x the G’s.

 

[Cptblamo]

Oh yeah, if you could figure out how to get rid of the drive shaft that runs most of the way to the lid of a top-loading washer, it'd surely spin fast enough.

Is there such a thing as a top-loading dryer?

Cheers!

Idk about the top loading dryer... now that I think about I havent seen one. Maybe u could put it on it's back. It would already have to be modified to work as a centrifuge.

 

[mongoose33]

Something like this might do the trick...

Disclaimer: The above comment was meant in jest.
I would never suggest anyone follow in Mr. Furze's footsteps.
I'm genuinely surprised they guy is still alive!

Another Darwin Award candidate?

 

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Using a washer or dryer is attractive because it has a bearing and is rugged enough to tolerate a *little* imbalance without spontaneous disassembly. But you still gotta figure out how to center the bucket in the rotating drum.
It sounds kinda like you could hurt yourself trying this

 

[Dinadan]

Maybe a top loading washer would work. We have one and it sure spins up: much more so than a dryer. Then three or four two gallon containers evenly distributed around the axis to balance the load. Or one fifteen gallon container right in the middle . . .

With a little jiggering you could spin up a huge vat and, once the trub is seperated, use the built in drain to get the beer out . . . just like getting the water out of the clothes.

 

[Dr_Jeff3]

Using a washer or dryer is attractive because it has a bearing and is rugged enough to tolerate a *little* imbalance without spontaneous disassembly. But you still gotta figure out how to center the bucket in the rotating drum.
It sounds kinda like you could hurt yourself trying this

My thought was to use a machining dial indicator to center it as best I can. +/-0.05in should be doable depending on how accurate the mould for the glass carboy is.

The top load washer/dryer is a good idea. I hadn’t thought of that. I was thinking of getting a hardtop barstool with free spinning bearings and attaching a high-ish torque motor (~$200) to the bottom either directly or via belt drive. Chop the legs for stability. And secure some type of wooden arms around the stool to hold the carboy.

 

[Argyll Gargoyle]

Skip the carboy all together and ferment in a washer (FIAW). Bonus: after you rack, it’s just one button to clean!

 

[day_trippr]

That's just crazy enough to work!

 

[Cptblamo]

Redneck ingenuity has nothing on homebrewers

 

[Yorkshire lad]

Have you tried a dab of Irish Moss a few minutes before flame out?