Counter Flow Chiller Needs

[ancientmariner52]

OMG. I may just have to pick up two of these. If they really do work for brewing as well as you say they do this is perfect. the question I still have is wort coming out of the CFC. would I use a pump to pull the wort out, or am I using gravity. Am I still using the pumps you mention to do that? Am I forever burdened to use a hop spider or hop bags to keep the pump and CFC clear of debris?



I think the point augiedoggy is making is that with an IC you have to sit there with a spoon to oxidize the wort (which i disagree with) vs a CFC which will oxidize the wort for you.

The reason I disagree with having to use a spoon to oxidize is that when the wort goes from kettle to fermenter (in my case, because I use buckets) the wort is passing through a strainer before hitting the bucket. That is going to oxidize the wort.

This had been an interesting discussion. It's clear that ere are A TON of people that prefer IC's...I still may go with a CFC though.

I think we should define some terms. Oxidizing is a bad thing, which harms the beer, especially for long term storage. Oxidation happens when you vigorously stir or otherwise whip air into HOT wort. Don't do that.

Oxygenation, or aeration, on the other hand, is a good thing. This happens when you stir, shake, splash, pump air or oxygen through CHILLED wort. This is beneficial for rapid yeast growth. You should do this. One time only, just before or just after you pitch the yeast.

Tl;dr: Oxygen + hot wort = bad, oxygen + cold wort + yeast = good.

It's much more complicated than this, but this is good enough to go on with.

 

[schematix]

Tl;dr: Oxygen + hot wort = bad, oxygen + cold wort + yeast = good.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Thanks, I fixed it above. Someday I'll learn to proofread carefully. But it is not this day.

 

[augiedoggy]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

 

[ancientmariner52]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

I use leftover sparge water to push the last of the wort out. Just pour it in the boil kettle and run the pump until the wort out of the CFC changes color.

Dang. I just realized I could connect the hose to the pump directly out of the HLT, and avoid disturbing the trub pile in the BK. I've done this dozens of times the hard way!

 

[schematix]

my point was also that when I had my IC chiller I had to manually keep stirring the wort or it didnt cool anything except the wort in direct contact by the coils... it seemed like a never ending process and I was blown away by how much more effective the plate chiller was when I got it.
at the end I do have to manually drain the last bit of wort stuck in my chiller and lines which I do with a measuring cup under the bottom camlock port on the chiller to catch it once I pop the camlock off.

I still recirculate the BK even with my IC. As you said, it's pretty much obligatory unless you want to constantly stir it.

I'm finding the same thing with my glycol+conical too. Gotta recirculate during the initial chill or it takes forever and stratifies.

 

[MX1]

I just account for the chiller loss......my time is worth more than the grain it cost to make up for the cup or so, lol

also, to be clear, my plate chiller will one pass chill, and if I dont keep an eye one it, I will have to wait for the wort to warm up to pitch....lastly, the 2nd or 3rd thing i do when I start clean-up is back flush the plate, and keep it back flush mode the entire time I clean, and the last thing I do is run a clean water rinse in the correct flow direction.

Still, my new rig will be set up to recirculate, and I think the IC will make me much happier.

T

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm finding the same thing with my glycol+conical too. Gotta recirculate during the initial chill or it takes forever and stratifies.

I actually dont have that issue so much. Probably because I use the discharge hose jacketing to cool the entire sidewalls of the conical on 3 of my four conicals vs the cooling coil? I have one ss brewtech with the coil but have only use it a couple of times as the coil is kind of a pain in the ass to clean especially with cooling lines going to it without quick disconnects.

 

[augiedoggy]

I just account for the chiller loss......my time is worth more than the grain it cost to make up for the cup or so, lol

also, to be clear, my plate chiller will one pass chill, and if I dont keep an eye one it, I will have to wait for the wort to warm up to pitch....lastly, the 2nd or 3rd thing i do when I start clean-up is back flush the plate, and keep it back flush mode the entire time I clean, and the last thing I do is run a clean water rinse in the correct flow direction.

Still, my new rig will be set up to recirculate, and I think the IC will make me much happier.

T

I must have a larger chiller, with the lines and chiller it almost fills my 4 cup measuring cup.. I also chill in one pas but use the pwm speed controller on my dc pump to dial in the temp I want.
The sparge water technique mentioned above by Ancientmariner52 sounds like it would work for me and I may give it a try.

 

[schematix]

I actually dont have that issue so much. Probably because I use the discharge hose jacketing to cool the entire sidewalls of the conical on 3 of my four conicals vs the cooling coil? I have one ss brewtech with the coil but have only use it a couple of times as the coil is kind of a pain in the ass to clean especially with cooling lines going to it without quick disconnects.

How big are your conicals? Do you have a pic?

I've got the Stout and the coil actually sits really low (it's about half in the cone). It's good in a sense that i bet you could do a 5 gallon batch in the 16.2 G fermenter, but the top doesn't cool quickly when you're doing a fast drop.

 

[augiedoggy]

How big are your conicals? Do you have a pic?

I've got the Stout and the coil actually sits really low (it's about half in the cone). It's good in a sense that i bet you could do a 5 gallon batch in the 16.2 G fermenter, but the top doesn't cool quickly when you're doing a fast drop.

there are some pictures towards the middle/end of my build thread in my signature. I also have a stout 12.5 which still uses a coolzone carboy cooling jacket instead of the coiled discharge hose and a generic 7.3g version as well as the older spike 12.5g clone from american brewer who used to sell them on ebay. and then theres the 14gallon ssbrewing conical with the jacket and coil but I dont have pics of that one... it actually belongs to my business partner that im opening the brewpub with but we keep it at my place for pilot brewing.

the temps drop fastest in my discharge wrapped conicals and the temp probes come in from the top and at centered or close to it.

EDIT Sorry OP I know off topic..

 

[DocDriza]

This is great conversation. I'm learning a lot, even with the off topic conversation.

I should be able to do a single pass cooling with the CFC right? Especially if I use a pre chiller?

I'm still curious about going from CFC to ferm bucket. How high would I need my BK to be in order to gravity feed? Can/should I use a pump to pull out my wort from the BK?

 

[ancientmariner52]

My CFC is home made. 50 feet of 3/8 inch soft copper tubing inside two sections of high temp garden hose. The first hose section (30 feet) is for tap water, the shorter section is for ice water. In the winter I connect the two sections with a jumper hose and run tap water in both.

One pass takes boiling wort to pitching temp. I recirculate boiling wort for 15 minutes or so to sanitize the chiller, then cut in the cooling water and move the outlet to the fermenter. Adjusting water flow and pump speed gives the outlet temp I want. Less than 10 minutes for a 5 gallon batch.

I've never tried a gravity flow setup, but as long as the boil kettle is on top and the fermenter is on the bottom, it has to work. Eventually. I don't have any idea how long it would take by gravity alone. If I wanted to go that way, I believe I'd mock it up with cold water and give it a try, knowing I might end up buying a pump.

 

[DocDriza]

My CFC is home made. 50 feet of 3/8 inch soft copper tubing inside two sections of high temp garden hose. The first hose section (30 feet) is for tap water, the shorter section is for ice water. In the winter I connect the two sections with a jumper hose and run tap water in both.

One pass takes boiling wort to pitching temp. I recirculate boiling wort for 15 minutes or so to sanitize the chiller, then cut in the cooling water and move the outlet to the fermenter. Adjusting water flow and pump speed gives the outlet temp I want. Less than 10 minutes for a 5 gallon batch.

I've never tried a gravity flow setup, but as long as the boil kettle is on top and the fermenter is on the bottom, it has to work. Eventually. I don't have any idea how long it would take by gravity alone. If I wanted to go that way, I believe I'd mock it up with cold water and give it a try, knowing I might end up buying a pump.

Pictures or it didn't happen!!!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Here ya go. Jumper in place.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Pump and speed control, power cord removed. That's all, it's 98°F and starting to rain.

 

[Genuine]

Testing mine out for the first time and I freaking love this thing! Goes in 210 degrees, coming out a balmy 65!

 

[DocDriza]

Testing mine out for the first time and I freaking love this thing! Goes in 210 degrees, coming out a balmy 65!

This is after a single pass? Do you have pumps pumping the hot liquid through the CFC?

 

[Genuine]

This is after a single pass? Do you have pumps pumping the hot liquid through the CFC?

After a single pass, throttling my pump back so it comes out as a gentle stream (lol). Actually, when I did shut off my pump and left valves open, it did create one hell of a siphon so I would imagine it'll work without a pump.

 

[tnlandsailor]

Got in a bit late on this discussion. A gravity fed CFC works fine. Your wort outflow in 3/8" OD tubing is going to be about 3 minutes per gallon if you set it up correctly. No pumps needed. Summer brewing requires a pre-chiller, but a decently designed CFC should be able to get you within about 5-8 degrees F of your chill water temp in one pass. I think an important thing to keep in mind is minimizing the vertical height of your chiller. If you make your own CFC, wind the chiller in large diameter loops so that you can fit the same length in a shorter height. My chiller is about 20" diameter and has about 6 turns (about 30') but only sits 6" tall. With it this short it's easier to fit between the outlet of the kettle and the top of the fermentation vessel. You can construct a very simple stand to set the chiller on to keep it at the right height. Some plate chillers save even more height than 6"and are are even more efficient. It sounds like time is important to you and in-line chilling is the fastest method since you are draining and chilling in the same step.

 

[DocDriza]

Got in a bit late on this discussion. A gravity fed CFC works fine. Your wort outflow in 3/8" OD tubing is going to be about 3 minutes per gallon if you set it up correctly. No pumps needed. Summer brewing requires a pre-chiller, but a decently designed CFC should be able to get you within about 5-8 degrees F of your chill water temp in one pass. I think an important thing to keep in mind is minimizing the vertical height of your chiller. If you make your own CFC, wind the chiller in large diameter loops so that you can fit the same length in a shorter height. My chiller is about 20" diameter and has about 6 turns (about 30') but only sits 6" tall. With it this short it's easier to fit between the outlet of the kettle and the top of the fermentation vessel. You can construct a very simple stand to set the chiller on to keep it at the right height. Some plate chillers save even more height than 6"and are are even more efficient. It sounds like time is important to you and in-line chilling is the fastest method since you are draining and chilling in the same step.

Thanks. I don't plan on making my own chiller. I made my own immersion chiller and now it has problems. I'll pay more for convenience with a CFC.

How high up is your burner? Trying to think what my setup should look like. I'm wondering if I need to build/buy a stand for my burner

I bought 2 12V pumps that were suggested by another poster.

I'm thinking I'll just buy the chiller and figure everything out as I go along. Waiting for answers from people and trying to avoid risk is keeping me from brewing beer. Not brewing beer is a problem.

Thanks for the tips thus far.

 

[tnlandsailor]

The stand that came with my burner was only about 15" high or so. I just built a riser for it. I started with the fermenter sitting on the ground, measured up 6" for the height of the chiller, then built the riser so the outlet of the kettle was an inch or so above that. Then I built a simple stand for my CFC out of PVC pipe to put it at the right position. The outlet of the kettle sits right at 26" off the ground.

Building your brewery from scratch is fun, but daunting as well. I find it easiest to start at the end point and work backwards. If you plan to pump out of the kettle, then you can put your kettle as low as you want. If you gravity feed (like me) then start at the end and work backwards. I do utilize a pump in my process, but only for mashing and sparging. Gravity from mash tun to kettle, gravity from kettle to fermenter. You might want to lay out your basic design and then select components that best fit your process flow. There are plenty of chillers out there that work really well, one design might fit your layout better than others. Layout before you buy. I would take a hard look at plate chillers since they work the best and are very compact. If you lean toward plate chillers, consider a really good kettle screen (I have some suggestions on this too, contact me privately).

 

[guyg]

I made my own cfc after using an immersion chiller for years. Immersion chiller sanitization is easy, just dip it in the boil for 15 minutes...done. CFC not so much, I run boiling water through it after chilling the wort, yes, it takes 1 pass about 10-12 minutes to gravity drain to the fermenter, but it's done and the water use (which is my most important consideration) is cut by at least half.

I'm gonna look at that pump, though.

 

[EDF713]

One note I'll add, I have the same hot groundwater issue here in Houston, and I haven't seen any posts in this thread about pumping ice-water through the chiller. I use an IC, when I bought it I used a pre-chiller and it took forever. Now I use a harbor freight pond pump to recirculate ice water through the IC, after using tap water to get it down to about 110. I put the pond pump at the bottom of an ice chest full of ice and a little water, hook it up to the IC, stir the wort, and I down into the 50s in no time. I'll harvest the ice from my freezer if I plan ahead enough, or I'll clean out the icemakers at work.

Whether you stick with your IC or buy a CFC, I recommend pumping ice water through it rather than using a pre-chiller.

 

[DocDriza]

I made my own cfc after using an immersion chiller for years. Immersion chiller sanitization is easy, just dip it in the boil for 15 minutes...done. CFC not so much, I run boiling water through it after chilling the wort, yes, it takes 1 pass about 10-12 minutes to gravity drain to the fermenter, but it's done and the water use (which is my most important consideration) is cut by at least half.

I'm gonna look at that pump, though.

I just bought the pumps, but I haven't had a chance to test them. I got the 12 V version. I just need to buy a CFC and I'll be good. One reason I would like to stop using the IC is water consumption. Water is more expensive in TX than when i lived in OH.

One note I'll add, I have the same hot groundwater issue here in Houston, and I haven't seen any posts in this thread about pumping ice-water through the chiller. I use an IC, when I bought it I used a pre-chiller and it took forever. Now I use a harbor freight pond pump to recirculate ice water through the IC, after using tap water to get it down to about 110. I put the pond pump at the bottom of an ice chest full of ice and a little water, hook it up to the IC, stir the wort, and I down into the 50s in no time. I'll harvest the ice from my freezer if I plan ahead enough, or I'll clean out the icemakers at work.

Whether you stick with your IC or buy a CFC, I recommend pumping ice water through it rather than using a pre-chiller.

It may not be in the thread, but in some DM chats we talked about pre-chillers. My plan is to use a pre-chiller. I have a small frozen bucket of water that I will put on top of the IC you see in the picture below. When I have time, I'll test this as well to see how well it works.

 

[MX1]

pumpd made it in

 

[brewgar]

Have you considered recirculating your cooling water, using your existing IC?

I use an inexpensive water transfer pump to first recirculate from a 5gal bucket of water (the resulting hot water gets saved for use during cleanup). When the wort/water temp equalizes, I move the hoses to a cooler filled with ice water (I get 20lb of ice for a little more than $2 at a local grocery store). The resulting warm water in the cooler is saved for rinsing during cleanup.

I can chill a 5gal batch in 15 minutes or less. Sometimes I stir the wort a little, sometimes not.

There's no worries of clogs, no cleaning of hoses or pump, since you're only pumping clean water. There's no waste of water, since the cooling water gets re-used for post-brew cleanup of your kettle and other gear. Cleaning the IC is easy, it just gets dunked a few times in the now warm water that's in the cooler.

View attachment 574936 View attachment 574937 View attachment 574938

Thank you Little River (Post 27 of this Thread). This is the best re-circulation system I have seen.

 

[DocDriza]

Mine made it in too. I got two of them.

 

[DU99]

i have a grainfather counterflow chiller and pump is used

 

[LittleRiver]

Thank you Little River (Post 27 of this Thread). This is the best re-circulation system I have seen.

Thanks Brewgar, I can only take credit for refining some ideas I've learned from the great community here on HBT.