Cost of 240v 30a outlet

[reynolds5520]

Yup, you've got it.

It would be worth checking first to be sure your local code is the same as the 2014 NEC. You may be able to avoid the extra expense.

 

[h22lude]

Yup, you've got it.

It would be worth checking first to be sure your local code is the same as the 2014 NEC. You may be able to avoid the extra expense.

Right, I was just using bedroom as an example. I think the newest coding says to install them in dwelling areas which is pretty much the whole house lol

I think I'm going to go the tandem with AFCI outlet route. Now I just need to figure out if I want to save the $150 in labor and do it myself. I'm leaning towards have a pro do it but I do want to learn how. I have learned a lot just from research this and you guys helping me. Thanks

 

[bbohanon]

There are other things to consider... For example if your house has enough juice in its service to support another 50a load...my old house for example has a 100amp main service ...I also have a 60a hot tub and a large reef tank that draws a lot of power.... I don't think I can add a 50a circuit if I wanted to and still be safe or meet code... I'm sure there are others in the same boat.

100% agreed on this note..make sure your main can handle the additional service no matter what size circuit you are adding especially in older homes..
Newer homes usually get 200amp service to the main..mine does.

 

[kal]

Anyway, You can easily get 12000 watts with 240v 30a if you run three phase power. Just use three phase heating elements and forget about it.

You can't get three phase in most residential neighborhoods. The transformers in suburban area aren't tapped that anyway in North America (or most other places in the world for that matter).

Residential homes are (relatively speaking) very lower power so they tap for nominal single-phase supply voltages. Not three phase or industrial. There would be no point in offering it as nobody uses anything that would run on three phase in their house.

You can in some isolated cases, but it's extremely rare.

Kal

 

[podz]

You can't get three phase in most residential neighborhoods. The transformers in suburban area aren't tapped that anyway in North America (or most other places in the world for that matter).

Residential homes are (relatively speaking) very lower power so they tap for nominal single-phase supply voltages. Not three phase or industrial. There would be no point in offering it as nobody uses anything that would run on three phase in their house.

You can in some isolated cases, but it's extremely rare.

Kal

The rest of the world? ;-)

Every residence in Finland, and probably most of the EU as well, has 3 phase power. All european stove-oven combos are 3 phase.

I have 3x25A 230 volt phases coming to my house through 3 big porcelain fuses. Other choices would be 3x35 or 3x63. 3x35 is actually very common, but I live in an old house.

We all run 3 phases from the main panel to the stove/oven (integrated components accept all 3 phases - otherwise 1 phase to the oven and 2 phases to the cooktop). I have a wood burning stove in my sauna, but all apartments and even a lot of single dwellings have electric heaters in the sauna - those are all 3 phase. I have an oil burner to heat my house - it heats water which circulates through my radiators. It's got a backup electric heater in case I run out of oil - that's 3 phase, too.

I am designing a new electric system for my house now where the main panel will have 3 live buses - 1 for each incoming phase. Then I balance out my circuits so the load is more or less evenly distributed across the phases. Properly balanced, 3x25A will allow me to run everything at once especially since I have now switched every lamp in my house to LED.

 

[h22lude]

100% agreed on this note..make sure your main can handle the additional service no matter what size circuit you are adding especially in older homes..
Newer homes usually get 200amp service to the main..mine does.

It was built in the late 80s. The only heavy loads on the panel are two wall AC units, dryer and stove. Everything else is pretty low amps.

 

[Hello]

WTF? I can walk into nearly any store and buy a 40a GFCI switch for 30 euro. Here, we put them in the panel and wire them between the breaker and the load.

Anyway, You can easily get 12000 watts with 240v 30a if you run three phase power. Just use three phase heating elements and forget about it.

It's just a quote from an electrician. I haven't hired them yet.
I had to look into three phase power and I don't think I can get away with that here.

If you are putting in a sub panel, you want the GFCI to live at the connection point of the brewery for the GFCI protection. In this case its the spa panel that is the last stop before the brewery gets plugged in so the GFCI in the main panel is not needed as the spa panel with the GFCI would get tripped before it even got to the main panel if there was an issue.

Okay that makes sense. That is what I intended to have. GFCI is in the spa panel and not in the main panel.

a 50a gfci breaker is $60 if you buy a complete 50a spa panel at the home depot with the breaker installed otherwise they are about $100 separately... sounds like who ever quoted you marked the price up 400% or so...

if you use a regular 30A 2 pole breaker ($10) for the main box and use a 50a gfci spa panel mounted by the outlet (makes a great master kill switch) you still get the gfci protection from the 50a breaker and the overcurrent protection from the main 30a breaker...(This is what I did). the ground fault protection is independent and will work correctly regardless... I was also told its best to have the gfci breaker closest to the load like they are in a kitchen/bathroom or hot tub...

By the way I think 6 guage is required for 50 or 60 amps and 8 is only good for like 40-45amps... could be wrong but thats what I thought I was told when I bought my 10g. I know I needed #6 wire for my hot tub but that is 60a too...

I am not surprised that an electrician's quote is 400% higher than all materials. They get $100-$200 per hour for their work around here.

What I don't understand is how I could only need a 30a two-pole breaker in the main box if I want a 50a panel mounted by the outlet. Wouldn't the main panel need 50a and not 30a? What if I want a 60a panel?

Regardless for me, the spa panel will have a GFCI breaker no matter what on the 240 side. I will have 120 in there as well for other things like a chest freezer, fan and light.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's just a quote from an electrician. I haven't hired them yet.
I had to look into three phase power and I don't think I can get away with that here.

Okay that makes sense. That is what I intended to have. GFCI is in the spa panel and not in the main panel.

I am not surprised that an electrician's quote is 400% higher than all materials. They get $100-$200 per hour for their work around here.

What I don't understand is how I could only need a 30a two-pole breaker in the main box if I want a 50a panel mounted by the outlet. Wouldn't the main panel need 50a and not 30a? What if I want a 60a panel?

Regardless for me, the spa panel will have a GFCI breaker no matter what on the 240 side. I will have 120 in there as well for other things like a chest freezer, fan and light.

you would only be using the GFCI functionality of the 50a spa panel and the breaker as an on off disconnect these features work regardless of the amperage as long as it matches or is below the breakers max rating so no you cant try to pull 60 amps through a 50a breaker but you can put the 50a spa panel inline between a 60a circuit and a 50a outlet and still be safe... the spa panel breaker would just pop before the main 60a one would be likely to if you were drawing over 50 amps...
Ideally you want to match everything up but using a spa panel for gfci function only works just as well in a smaller circuit

 

[augiedoggy]

You can't get three phase in most residential neighborhoods. The transformers in suburban area aren't tapped that anyway in North America (or most other places in the world for that matter).

Residential homes are (relatively speaking) very lower power so they tap for nominal single-phase supply voltages. Not three phase or industrial. There would be no point in offering it as nobody uses anything that would run on three phase in their house.

You can in some isolated cases, but it's extremely rare.

Kal

you can with a phase generator.... We use them on certian intallations with these restrictions for some of our equipment that requires it along with buck/boost transformers... basically you have a mini powerstation

 

[Hello]

you would only be using the GFCI functionality of the 50a spa panel and the breaker as an on off disconnect these features work regardless of the amperage as long as it matches or is below the breakers max rating so no you cant try to pull 60 amps through a 50a breaker but you can put the 50a spa panel inline between a 60a circuit and a 50a outlet and still be safe... the spa panel breaker would just pop before the main 60a one would be likely to if you were drawing over 50 amps...
Ideally you want to match everything up but using a spa panel for gfci function only works just as well in a smaller circuit

I may have to read this a few times, but I am confused now.
How can you use a 30a breaker in the main box that runs to a 50a spa panel? Let's ditch the 60a idea for now.

 

[augiedoggy]

I may have to read this a few times, but I am confused now.
How can you use a 30a breaker in the main box that runs to a 50a spa panel? Let's ditch the 60a idea for now.

its still a 30a line and 30a circuit.... you are just using the 50a spa panel FOR ITS GFCI functionality. coming out of the spa panel would be more 10G wire with a 30a outlet or load wired to it... this works regardless of the amount of amps passing thorough it as long as its less than 50a... Many who do this put a sticker or write "30A service" in case someone else is using the outlet in their house I suppose...

 

[homebrew57]

I may have to read this a few times, but I am confused now.
How can you use a 30a breaker in the main box that runs to a 50a spa panel? Let's ditch the 60a idea for now.

Assuming all the wiring is appropriately sized for 30 amps or higher, the 50 amp spa panel is only used inline between the main and your system for ground fault protection. The 30 amp breaker in the main protects your wiring if your system tries to draw over 30 amps.

 

[augiedoggy]

Assuming all the wiring is appropriately sized for 30 amps or higher, the 50 amp spa panel is only used inline between the main and your system for ground fault protection. The 30 amp breaker in the main protects your wiring if your system tries to draw over 30 amps.

yes exactly what I'm trying to say... it also makes a great kill switch near the control panel or brewery if theres an issue.

 

[kal]

Every residence in Finland, and probably most of the EU as well, has 3 phase power. All european stove-oven combos are 3 phase.

Possibly. However, Wikipedia tells is that "In most countries, household power is single-phase electric power, with two or three wired contacts at each outlet." (source)

Regardless, the original poster is from the US and 3-phase isn't normally offered for residences in North America. It may be available if he lives on a farm that has big machinery or is in a previously industrial part of town / living in a renovated loft / or similar. Having 3 phase in residential in North America is extremely unlikely.

Kal

 

[h22lude]

I may have to read this a few times, but I am confused now.
How can you use a 30a breaker in the main box that runs to a 50a spa panel? Let's ditch the 60a idea for now.

Don't think of the 50A breaker as an actual breaker. Think of it as just a ground fault interrupter. The circuit is a 30A circuit.

 

[augiedoggy]

Possibly. However, Wikipedia tells is that "In most countries, household power is single-phase electric power, with two or three wired contacts at each outlet." (source)

Regardless, the original poster is from the US and 3-phase isn't normally offered for residences in North America. It may be available if he lives on a farm that has big machinery or is in a previously industrial part of town / living in a renovated loft / or similar. Having 3 phase in residential in North America is extremely unlikely.

Kal

did you notice that wikipedia did mention that my area (Niagara falls/buffalo) is still using "True two phase" power in some areas.... I remember the power company forcing use to rewire the restaurant I worked for as the maint dept because we were on this "Old work system" We also had aluminum wire mains which they forced us to convert to copper (my house still uses copper clad aluminum mains)

 

[Hello]

Assuming all the wiring is appropriately sized for 30 amps or higher, the 50 amp spa panel is only used inline between the main and your system for ground fault protection. The 30 amp breaker in the main protects your wiring if your system tries to draw over 30 amps.

yes exactly what I'm trying to say... it also makes a great kill switch near the control panel or brewery if theres an issue.

Yeah it does. That was my hope. Between you two, I get it a bit more now. I guess I thought a 50a spa panel was pulling 50a and with that, how would that happen if the breaker is 30a on the main panel? That is where I got lost.

Don't think of the 50A breaker as an actual breaker. Think of it as just a ground fault interrupter. The circuit is a 30A circuit.

Well this makes me think you can do this on your own!

But my control panel is 50a. I intend to run two 5500w heat sticks together. I think my main panel needs to have something that will run that, no? You're looking at only 30a, so I get why you'd need 30.

 

[homebrew57]

yes you would need a 50 amp breaker in your main panel and the correct size wiring. For the spa panel, you could use a 50 amp spa panel or a 60 amp spa panel with the same theory as above with the 30 amp example. The spa panel doesn't "pull" any amperage. It is only a door for the electrical power to go through. You panel is what pulls the amps.

 

[bbohanon]

But my control panel is 50a. I intend to run two 5500w heat sticks together. I think my main panel needs to have something that will run that, no? You're looking at only 30a, so I get why you'd need 30.

If you intend on running 2 5500watt elements at the same time(meaning more than one element actively on at the same time), you will need full 50amp service for your brewery.
30amp service will not be enough to safely run them both unless your plan is to only run them as a "only one element actively on at a time" configuration in which 30amp service to the brewery would be sufficient.

This was my whole argument for just going full out on a 50amp service from main to sub(if your main can handle 50amp service to a sub).
Future proofs you if you ever need it.

 

[h22lude]

Well this makes me think you can do this on your own!

Doing some research and understanding is different than doing lol


Just out of curiosity, would plugging this into my dryer outlet work? It is either a 30A or 50A breaker. Probably not GFCI though.

 

[augiedoggy]

Doing some research and understanding is different than doing lol


Just out of curiosity, would plugging this into my dryer outlet work? It is either a 30A or 50A breaker. Probably not GFCI though.

YES many use an inline GFCI in the cord or use a spa panel actually wired to the cord between your panel and the outlet. the only drawback is there is no real neutral for running 120v stuff like pumps (Iuse 24v dc pumps in my build so its not an issue... theres a pic of how I have my spa panel in relationship to my brew panel in a spare room in my house... main breaker box is downstairs.. mine is 4 wire but I only use the three since everything runs on 220v or the 12 or 24V made from power supplies running on 220v..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/facelift-my-control-panel-497593/index2.html

 

[h22lude]

YES many use an inline GFCI in the cord or use a spa panel actually wired to the cord between your panel and the outlet. the only drawback is there is no real neutral for running 120v stuff like pumps (Iuse 24v dc pumps in my build so its not an issue... theres a pic of how I have my spa panel in relationship to my brew panel in a spare room in my house... main breaker box is downstairs.. mine is 4 wire but I only use the three since everything runs on 220v or the 12 or 24V made from power supplies running on 220v..

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/facelift-my-control-panel-497593/index2.html

Well my dryer is in my master bathroom so I have the dryer outlet and 120V outlets on a separate circuit. I just don't know if I want to brew in my bathroom lol

 

[augiedoggy]

Well my dryer is in my master bathroom so I have the dryer outlet and 120V outlets on a separate circuit. I just don't know if I want to brew in my bathroom lol

I dont blame you... I have to use my bathroom for my water source and some cleanup sine I have no basement and I brew on the second floor.... Moving later this year to remedy that though...(not only reason but a big one!)

 

[Hello]

yes you would need a 50 amp breaker in your main panel and the correct size wiring. For the spa panel, you could use a 50 amp spa panel or a 60 amp spa panel with the same theory as above with the 30 amp example. The spa panel doesn't "pull" any amperage. It is only a door for the electrical power to go through. You panel is what pulls the amps.

If you intend on running 2 5500watt elements at the same time(meaning more than one element actively on at the same time), you will need full 50amp service for your brewery.
30amp service will not be enough to safely run them both unless your plan is to only run them as a "only one element actively on at a time" configuration in which 30amp service to the brewery would be sufficient.

This was my whole argument for just going full out on a 50amp service from main to sub(if your main can handle 50amp service to a sub).
Future proofs you if you ever need it.

So this works to run my two 5500 elements together and also my chest freezer, floor fan, and TV on the 110?

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Connecticu...Breakers-GFCI-Duplex-CESMPSC55GRHR/100669936/

 

[h22lude]

I do use my shower to clean a lot of stuff. I actually find it easier to wash things in my tub. My hose is in my backyard so it can get muddy if I use it too much.

I may actually check out my dryer outlet and see how that would work. If I'm going to clean stuff there anyway, might as well brew there lol My wife already knows brewing stuff goes in the bathroom.

 

[augiedoggy]

same here...I clean my boil kettle in the shower with the wand after dumping it in the toilet.. some day I'll have a real sink in my brew room.... Sigh..

 

[podz]

Possibly. However, Wikipedia tells is that "In most countries, household power is single-phase electric power, with two or three wired contacts at each outlet." (source)

"In Europe, three-phase 230/400 V is most commonly used. However, 230/460 V, three-wire, single-phase systems are used to run farms and small groups of houses when only one (or sometimes two) of the three-phase high-voltage conductors are available."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power#Europe


"In northern and central Europe, residential electrical supply is commonly 400 V three-phase electric power, which gives 230 V between phase and neutral; house wiring is a mix of three-phase and single-phase circuits. High-power appliances such as kitchen stoves and household power heavy tools like log splitters are very often attached to 400 V three-phase power."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity#Building_wiring

 

[h22lude]

So I was thinking, my bathroom may be better right now. It already has the outlets, it has an exhaust fan, water, place to wash everything and a hook up for my chiller. May try it out and see how it goes for now. Since we are planning to move within a year this may just save money so I can add 240v in my next basement

 

[homebrew57]

So this works to run my two 5500 elements together and also my chest freezer, floor fan, and TV on the 110?

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Connecticu...Breakers-GFCI-Duplex-CESMPSC55GRHR/100669936/

Hard to say. You would need find the amp draw for each component and add them up. Are you going to have pumps as well? You would need to add those in too. I know the amp draw for the elements alone are ~23 amps at 100% so already you are at 46 amps if you plan to use both elements at the same time.

 

[augiedoggy]

So I was thinking, my bathroom may be better right now. It already has the outlets, it has an exhaust fan, water, place to wash everything and a hook up for my chiller. May try it out and see how it goes for now. Since we are planning to move within a year this may just save money so I can add 240v in my next basement

same boat here... I have grand plans for a brewery/basement barroom with space for my projector setup.