Correlation between recirculating and head retention?

[ba-brewer]

This has largely been my approach too. SMB often supplies all or some of the sulfate content that I want and other chloride sources supplement the water. When I first started using SMB for oxygen reduction, I didn't account for its sulfate contribution and quickly found that beers can be too dry with that sulfate content.

Do you have plans to enhance Bru'n water to account for SMB additions?

 

[day_trippr]

Do you have plans to enhance Bru'n water to account for SMB additions?

I've been hoping that would happen - even asked a month or so ago when the LODO thread was raging...

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

I've been hoping that would happen - even asked a month or so ago when the LODO thread was raging...



Cheers!

Martin has said in a few threads now that it will be incorporated in the next update.

 

[Bilsch]

wow I seem to be caught in some kind of a mad scientist vortex

This thread is quite information dense. Might have to reread it all to be sure and not miss anything.

 

[MSK_Chess]

This thread is quite information dense. Might have to reread it all to be sure and not miss anything.

We are quite fortunate to be in the company of so many learned gentlemen for sure. Sometimes I find myself having to read the text numerous times and even after having done so only partially grasping its import. Its not that the concepts are in themselves difficult, sometimes language especially if its technical can veil the meaning and sometimes it requires a degree of background knowledge which is sometimes assumed. But yeah, great thread!

 

[MSK_Chess]

My first experience of attempting a LODO.

Pre boiling water was easy. I have a 2.5Kw concealed element in the mash tun and the same in the kettle both @240V It was remarkable how quickly the temperature dropped by chilling. Followed the recommended mash schedule, 30min 61-63C, 30min 70-72C and 10 min 75C for mashout.

The additions of Sodium Metabisulphite were entirely minimal, a measly 0.35g for mash targeting 26ppm and 0.15g for sparge targeting 5ppm.

I extended my circulation pipework below the surface and there was hardly a ripple, so much so that I wondered if it was actually working. The sparge water was also piped below the surface and it was almost identical to doing a full volume mash. Wort was underlet into the kettle and all was good.

The problem that I did have and could not really surmount was circulating during cold break. I have an immersion chiller and normally I do a manual whirlpool with my paddle. Ground water is pretty cold and I can get to about 20-25 Celsius in 15-20 minutes. The problem with this though is that it creates surface tension that we are seeking to avoid. Perhaps installing an automated whirlpool and pumping the wort around the chiller would be better? Either way I don't see how breaking surface tension can be avoided. Any suggestions most appreciated.

Finally I did notice a reduced aroma. Normally when I brew a Porter its quite pungent. I thought it was simply my imagination but I asked my wife and she confirmed it. hopefully all that malty roast coffee and chocolate goodness is where it should be, in the wort. Wort is now chilling to facilitate the precipitation of hot/cold break material into trub after which it will be transferred for immediate fermentation.

I remain optimistic that little by little I can reduce the dissolved oxygen content of my beers by making some minor adjustments.

 

[dyqik]

Installing a whirlpool inlet will make your chilling a whole lot easier on your arm, and probably a little more efficient. I can thoroughly recommended the Brew Hardware Spin Cycle for that, particularly if you only do one size of batches, as it means you don't need a valve on it.

 

[ba-brewer]

Followed the recommended mash schedule, 30min 61-63C, 30min 70-72C and 10 min 75C for mashout.

What sort of body do you expect to get from that mash schedule?

 

[MSK_Chess]

What sort of body do you expect to get from that mash schedule?

medium with awesome head retention.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Installing a whirlpool inlet will make your chilling a whole lot easier on your arm, and probably a little more efficient. I can thoroughly recommended the Brew Hardware Spin Cycle for that, particularly if you only do one size of batches, as it means you don't need a valve on it.

Actually I don't really need to whirlpool for very long. I am more concerned with oxygen ingress which occurs primarily when we create surface tension. Yes the brew hardware spin cycle looks awesome, dunno if you can get it in the UK. Thanks for the recommendation, will search around.

 

[ba-brewer]

medium with awesome head retention.

Thanks. Any chance you monitor your conversion, if so how far how close to completion was it when you stepped from 61 to 70?

 

[MSK_Chess]

Thanks. Any chance you monitor your conversion, if so how far how close to completion was it when you stepped from 61 to 70?

I did not monitor it except to do an iodine test after schedule was complete. I slightly overstepped my intended original gravity by a few points though making my brewhouse efficiency slightly above 70%. It is my understanding though that a beta amylase enzyme is not long for this world and 30 min is adequate enough time for a maltose rest. There is a graph on page 2 of this thread showing the life of a beta amalyse enzyme at various temperatures. At 70C he has less then two minutes of a half life left.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=632676&page=2

 

[rabeb25]

Congrats.

You didn't taste the wort at all?

 

[MSK_Chess]

Congrats.

You didn't taste the wort at all?

yes I did, primarily to see if there was any taste of sulphur and not a drop, no not even a hint. It was fresh and had everything that I hoped for, hints of caramel, roast coffee, dark chocolate.

there are some aspects that I can improve upon, first will be slowly phasing out the copper and brass fittings that I have, secondly fixing the whirlpool and cold break issue with some additional of fittings and gradually getting the system more automated.

What do you guys do for trub removal? I cold crashed my wort but some still made it into the fermenter. Do you have a filter system. I have about three cannister filter housings, I could maybe get a fairly large gauge of filter and filter hot/cold break through that after cold crashing and just before pitching. What do you think?

 

[rabeb25]

Just minimize cold trub. All hot break/trub should be removed, but some cold break is beneficial. A simple sedimentation in the Boil Kettle ( allow break material to settle for a bit). That should leave the adequate amount.

Get yourself some brewtan B to help with the copper/brass you have.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Just minimize cold trub. All hot break/trub should be removed, but some cold break is beneficial. A simple sedimentation in the Boil Kettle ( allow break material to settle for a bit). That should leave the adequate amount.

Get yourself some brewtan B to help with the copper/brass you have.

Hi rabeb25 when you say all hot break/trub are you guys protein skimming or are you referring to any hop debris that is left over? Personally I use a hop spider which limits to a fair degree that amount of hop debris that gets left behind.

brewtan B I like the sound of that!

 

[rabeb25]

Hi rabeb25 when you say all hot break/trub are you guys protein skimming or are you referring to any hop debris that is left over? Personally I use a hop spider which limits to a fair degree that amount of hop debris that gets left behind.

brewtan B I like the sound of that!

Hot break is only formed after about 10 minutes of boiling. Those little (or sometimes big) flecks of "gunk" during boiling, and the hop matter.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Hot break is only formed after about 10 minutes of boiling. Those little (or sometimes big) flecks of "gunk" during boiling, and the hop matter.

You are talking of the coagulation of proteins which occurs as you say about ten minutes into the boil. You are skimming these off?

 

[rabeb25]

No that is whirlpooled at the end of the boil.

 

[MSK_Chess]

No that is whirlpooled at the end of the boil.

ummm I think we are talking about about the same thing. At the beginning of the boil proteins coagulate to form what is generally referred to as the 'hot break'. perhaps a picture shall help.

 

[rabeb25]

No, that is not hot break. That's foam commonly called foop. Hot break forms after the boil has started not before/up too. Cold break only forms after chilling below 20c (I think, it may be a little higher). Check out Kunze v5 chap 3.

Hotbreak
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1502657591.347782.jpg

 

[MSK_Chess]

hmmm I have never actually taken a sample of the boiling wort to look at it. Mostly the wort is pretty clear going into the kettle though and I cannot remember seeing anything quite so murky, then again, I have never pulled a sample. Are you filtering it out in the picture with a fine mesh sieve?

 

[rabeb25]

That's hot break so 10 or so minutes into the boil.

Preboil is crystal clear
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1502659091.636168.jpg


I use a custom mash filter. But after the boil a whirlpool and sedimentation is used to get post boil wort of this into the fermenter.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1502659157.330368.jpg

 

[ba-brewer]

Just minimize cold trub. All hot break/trub should be removed, but some cold break is beneficial. A simple sedimentation in the Boil Kettle ( allow break material to settle for a bit). That should leave the adequate amount.

Get yourself some brewtan B to help with the copper/brass you have.

My wort starts off clear too then turns sort of dull looking during boil, but then as soon as heat is removed big fluffy break clouds form and the surround wort turns clear once again.

Are you saying you need to allow that to settle and rack off of that before chilling?

 

[rabeb25]

No, after chilling.

 

[ba-brewer]

so how do you separate out the hot break and only get cold break?

 

[rabeb25]

I don't. I get hot break and use a whirlpool for that. Then I use sedimentation in the same vessel to get cold break ( not all but what we want).

 

[rabeb25]

FYI my wort never goes dull. It's always glassy and bright.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1502662284.293807.jpg

(That's all hot break and hop trub btw)

 

[MSK_Chess]

I really don't have a problem with beer clarity, mostly my beers are crystal clear. During whirlpool i love it when everything coagulates and falls out. This is probably my favourite part of the process.

 

[ba-brewer]

your wort is clear and chunky like that through the entire boil?