Copper Damage from Oxyclean

[Picobrew]

I haven't heard this "it hurts copper" stuff before, just aluminum. The standard answer for any mess in my house has become "oxyclean". Hell we even put it in our laundry. Maybe I can get it setup so it comes out premixed from my shower head, and I can add a third tap to my kitchen sink that emits the sweet nectar.

After I clean my chiller , I soak it in star san for a minute and it comes out shiny as hell. Is this the oxidized layer being munched?

 

[Clayton]

that is what i have understood too, was that the oxiclean made the top layer of copper easly dissolveable in to the wort, you will not see a change in your copper it will stay shiny .
just like the lead pipes used in the past looked the same after wort, beer, ect traved in them ,, but the lead dissolved in to the solution.

shiney copper is copper that does not have a protetive cote of oxid
copper water pipe quicky turn black on the inside, this is an oxide that keeps the copper out of your water. copper poison is a real deal and long term mild over exposures effect is a destroyed liver. its not your IC you should worry about but your health ,shiny copper is bad copper let it turn brown and just clean it with water

here is a snip it from a medical site
"Copper is a heavy metal that is toxic in its unbound form. Almost all of the copper in the body is bound to proteins, thereby reducing the concentration of unbound copper ions to almost zero. Since copper and zinc compete with each other for absorption in the gut, copper toxicity has been the subject of greater concern in recent years. This is primarily due to reduced zinc in the diet and the switch from galvanized to copper water pipes. Acidic water such as rain water, left standing in copper plumbing pipes, can be a source of toxicity when consumed. In prolonged contact with copper cooking utensils, an acidic food or beverage (wort) can dissolve milligram quantities of copper, sufficient to cause acute toxicity symptoms such as self-limited nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. High copper levels, especially when associated with low zinc levels, have been linked to a variety of symptoms and conditions"

 

[The Pol]

So, the argument that it harms copper is false (from the looks of it) But now the argument is that it is unhealthy? Well, now that will be harder for me to quantify, for any of us to quantify one way or another.

I have heard that shiney copper is bad... but that is the thing, my copper in my kettle did NOT turn shiney, it looks like it always has, oxidized.

 

[Clayton]

use oxiclean all the time its great, but i dont use it on copper
i dont want to poison the people who drink my beer

thoes boys a coors that invented pbw may know more that you think

 

[The Pol]

use oxiclean all the time its great, but i dont use it on copper
i dont want to poison the people who drink my beer

thoes boys a coors that invented pbw may know more that you think

Yah, how to make money even if you are selling crap beer

 

[The Pol]

Okay, I hear that boiling wort in aluminum will give me alzheimers.

That myth was perpetuated for YEARS... where was the proof. There wasnt any, it was based on the fact that too much aluminum could be linked to alzheimers. But did boiling in aluminum give you a large enough dose?

This is the same... so yeah copper in large enough ammounts is bad for you. But now the question is, is there proof that OxiClean will cause the release of all of this copper into your wort?

What is the difference between Oxi and PBW? Doesnt PBW contain sodium metasilicate, and that is the only real difference between the two? This strong base?

So then the question becomes, does the inclusion of sodium metasilicate make the difference between the supposed safety of PBW and the danger in using Oxi?

I am still awaiting my death from botulism... this is my point.

 

[Picobrew]

Well hold on now, what is making the copper shiny? For me, I believe its the star san, not the oxy. I should skip the shiny step, I suppose.

 

[bob1852]

I am trying to STOP the perpetuating of bad information being passed off as fact.

everyone knows soaking copper in oxiclean will lead to hot side aeration and oxidation of your beer

 

[The Pol]

Well hold on now, what is making the copper shiny? For me, I believe its the star san, not the oxy. I should skip the shiny step, I suppose.

My Oxi is not making my copper shiney...

Here is what sodium metasilicate (sodium silicate) does. This is the difference between Oxi and PBW.

Corrosion Inhibition
Sodium silicate can be used as a corrosion inhibitor in potable and industrial water. Sodium silicate inhibits corrosion by forming a protective film on metal surfaces that isolates the metal from further corrosive attack. Because soluble silicates are alkaline, moreover, they bring the further benefit of increasing the pH of water. Sodium silicate can be used to inhibit corrosion of cast iron pipes, service lines, and fixtures—to protect the infrastructure and to help water utilities meet the requirements of the lead/copper rule. Selection of silicate for this application depends on the pH and alkalinity of the untreated water.

Now if I owned a big expen sive brewery Id LOVE to have this additive in my cleaner to protect my millions of dollars of plumbing from corrosion. Now, IMHO this does not mean that NOT using PBW and using Oxi or any other cleaner will cause me harm.

 

[The Pol]

everyone knows soaking copper in oxiclean will lead to hot side aeration and oxidation of your beer

Well, I wont argue that, that has been proven!

 

[Ryan_PA]

I am still awaiting my death from botulism... this is my point.

As are the makers of PBW.

If enough attention is given to this topic it will turn into another HSA or aluminum deal.

 

[conpewter]

I was listening to Brewing Network and they talked to a guy who uses copper brewing kettles (commercial brewing) and his kettles are always bright and shiny. The government wanted to make them change to SS which they didn't want to do. The copper kettles gave them some carmelization they wanted. Anyway they tested the beer and could detect no copper, 0 ppm. The reason is that the yeast scrub it all out during fermentation. Brew on

 

[The Pol]

I was listening to Brewing Network and they talked to a guy who uses copper brewing kettles (commercial brewing) and his kettles are always bright and shiny. The government wanted to make them change to SS which they didn't want to do. The copper kettles gave them some carmelization they wanted. Anyway they tested the beer and could detect no copper, 0 ppm. The reason is that the yeast scrub it all out during fermentation. Brew on

Excellent research Conpewter... this is what I pay you for. By the way, I am broke, please email the POTUS for your check

 

[Clayton]

My Oxi is not making my copper shiney...

Here is what sodium metasilicate (sodium silicate) does. This is the difference between Oxi and PBW.

Corrosion Inhibition
Sodium silicate can be used as a corrosion inhibitor in potable and industrial water. Sodium silicate inhibits corrosion by forming a protective film on metal surfaces that isolates the metal from further corrosive attack. Because soluble silicates are alkaline, moreover, they bring the further benefit of increasing the pH of water. Sodium silicate can be used to inhibit corrosion of cast iron pipes, service lines, and fixtures—to protect the infrastructure and to help water utilities meet the requirements of the lead/copper rule. Selection of silicate for this application depends on the pH and alkalinity of the untreated water.

Now if I owned a big expen sive brewery Id LOVE to have this additive in my cleaner to protect my millions of dollars of plumbing from corrosion. Now, IMHO this does not mean that NOT using PBW and using Oxi or any other cleaner will cause me harm.

you are missing the boat, thay arnt protecting the pipes
thay are protecting the people drinking from the pipes
the copper rule it spoke of a cap on copper in the water.
the protective film keeps the copper out of the water.

 

[purechaos]

maybe you should go the myth busters route and soak it in a solution with a higher concentration than you would normally use to clean your BK,

 

[conpewter]

Excellent research Conpewter... this is what I pay you for. By the way, I am broke, please email the POTUS for your check

Anything for my country.... and beer

This was the episode
The Brewing Network.com - :

Jamil and John Palmer (metallurgist) along with Colin Kaminski who I think has the 17 bbl copper kettles.

 

[Bokonon]

FWIW, I am leaving today for a 5 day campping trip...

I just put a length of copper tubing in a gallon jug of OxyClean mixed at a ratio of .3oz/gallon (the same I used to clean my BK and my fermentor) and I am going to leave it there for 5 days. Took photos of it PRE-soak and will take pictures of it POST soak when I return on Friday.

Maybe, if there is a problem, it is with LONG term soaking. As I said, 45 minutes in my BK at 150+F didnt do a darn thing to the copper tubing...

If it doenst eat holes in this stuff after 5 days, some people will have a lot of splaining to do about what they "know" about this cleaner

If you have a scale that is sensitive enough it might be interesting to take a pre soak weight and a post soak weight to see if there is any difference

 

[olllllo]

Well, I have heard a hundred times that Oxyclean will damage copper.

Where have you heard this?

 

[kladue]

For those that are concerned about copper in oxyclean and dont want to wait review this thread from 5-1-09 "What happened to my wort chiller? ".

 

[MattHollingsworth]

So, now it's that we're worried about copper being leeched into the wort? What's the level that is unhealthy for humans?

From An Analysis of Brewing Techniques, by George and Laurie Fx:

The copper content of wort is a more subtle issue. It has been clearly shown that copper is toxic to yeast above 10 milligrams per liter. Also, at or above 1 milligram per liter, copper serves as a catalyst of oxidation, leading to permanent haze (Moll 1979)."

So, if it's toxic to yeast at that level, at what level does it harm people? This quote above is from the water section of the book, on page 15, for those who are curious.

 

[purechaos]

well the USEPA sets the MCL (maximum contamination limit) at 1.3 mg/L (approx ppm)

source

So, now it's that we're worried about copper being leeched into the wort? What's the level that is unhealthy for humans?

From An Analysis of Brewing Techniques, by George and Laurie Fx:



So, if it's toxic to yeast at that level, at what level does it harm people? This quote above is from the water section of the book, on page 15, for those who are curious.

 

[FlyingHorse]

So the yeast can't be our coalmine canaries (1.3 mg/l does us in, but the little buggers can handle up to 10 mg/l).

How about a real scientific test? Send 4 samples to Ward for the $6 copper test:

1) The source water you use for brewing
2) Unfermented wort from a batch in which you used your OC-soaked chiller
3) Unfermented wort (ideally, same recipe) in which you used your (or another) non-OC-soaked chiller
4) A fermented sample of #2 (to test conpewter's finding that the yeast will scrub out the copper.

We got enough people interested in The Truth to pony up a couple bucks each and subsidize this exercise?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

maybe you should go the myth busters route and soak it in a solution with a higher concentration than you would normally use to clean your BK,

And then blow it up with a crapload of TNT

 

[purechaos]

I work for an environmental company, and we have a close relationship with a lab that used to be our sister company.

I could probably get 4 copper samples ran for nothing without an official report. I use a copper as a drop tube in my keggle and for my CFC.

the bummer is that our sample size is 500ml per sample i dont want to part with 1500ml of mothers milk

So the yeast can't be our coalmine canaries (1.3 mg/l does us in, but the little buggers can handle up to 10 mg/l).

How about a real scientific test? Send 4 samples to Ward for the $6 copper test:

1) The source water you use for brewing
2) Unfermented wort from a batch in which you used your OC-soaked chiller
3) Unfermented wort (ideally, same recipe) in which you used your (or another) non-OC-soaked chiller
4) A fermented sample of #2 (to test conpewter's finding that the yeast will scrub out the copper.

We got enough people interested in The Truth to pony up a couple bucks each and subsidize this exercise?

 

[malkore]

Hmm, I've never run into someone claiming star san was bad on copper. Gold and Silver..yes...per Charles Tally in that podcast.

But copper is used in many commercial breweries...and that's what star san was designed for...commercial breweries...so I don't think copper is at risk. I know my IC has never been damaged by it. hell it sometimes leaves the star san bath looking shinier.

*edit*
what in the world was I drinking on june 1st that I read 'oxyclean' as 'star san'. Whatever it was, it musta been good, and I need to find more.

 

[purechaos]

this is about oxYclean and debunking its affect on copper

 

[olllllo]

this is about oxYclean and debunking its affect on copper

I'm still looking for where that was bunked.

 

[purechaos]

urban legends are born from fear of the unknown and change

 

[olllllo]

err right. I'm still looking for the premise made in the original argument that Oxyclean damages your copper equipment, an argument that has been supposedly been made one hundred fold and unchallenged. Where is that?

A separate question has been asked as to whether cleaned copper allows the wort to leach copper into the wort. The Ward Labs idea is a good one.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Someone else mentioned listening to the Brewstrong radio show about metals. I'm listening to it now. And the guy from Downtown Joe's in Napa has a copper kettle. And indeed, he said that the state of California came to test their beer to see if it had elevated copper, with an eye towards forcing them to use stainless, and they found 0 copper.

Their basic take on this is that the yeast eat the copper and it's no problem. And John Palmer evidently works at 3M and has some knowledge about metals.

The brewer from Downtown Joe's also goes on to say that they can use caustic to clean their copper (but they don't, from the sounds of it) but that they cannot use anything with chlorine because it has a chemical reaction. He said they use chlorinated caustic for stuff and can't use that for the copper kettle because of the reaction.

They also go on to say on the show that too much copper in the fermented beer leads to staling (the cardboard flavored one) in the beer. So, perhaps if we're not experiencing this then the copper level's just fine.