Bucket fermenter lid not sealing

[ncbrewer]

I’ve scaled down from 5 gallons to 2.5 gallon batches (up to 3 gallons) and bought a 5 gallon bucket from Lowes for my fermenter. It has a lid with an O-ring seal. It sealed very well, but I had a really hard time removing the O-ring to clean it - I ruined the O-ring in the process. Asked about it on the Lowes website, and a company rep couldn’t help - said it isn’t intended to be removed. I bought another lid and cut out a notch in the outside of the rim so that I could reach the O-ring to remove it. That sealed very well and allowed me to remove the O-ring, but I’m concerned about the hand-cut notch having any nicks that might harbor microbes.

Then I found a lid at Askews that claims to be airtight, but doesn’t have a gasket or O-ring. I tried it, and I’m not at all happy with the seal - very few bubbles in the airlock.

I’ve checked on the internet and can’t find anything that looks like what I want, so I’m hoping someone knows how to find something that will work. Here are the options I have thought about along with the perceived problems:

• Find a lid (5 gallon) with an O-ring that can be removed without damaging it. Haven’t found one.
• Find a lid (5 gallon) with a soft built-in seal that is not removable. Haven’t found one.
• Use existing lid without O-ring. Poor seal and possible oxidation.
• Use Lowes lid with O-ring and notch cut out. Possible infections due to hand-cut notch.
• Use my existing 7.9 gallon fermenter. Maybe too much headspace/oxidation.
• Buy 6 or 6.5 gallon bucket fermenter. Maybe too much headspace/oxidation
• Buy new bucket with Gamma seal lid. Hopefully get a good seal - Difficult to open and get sample. I use a swamp cooler, so grabbing the bucket would be difficult.
• Use the lid with O-ring, but don’t cut the notch out. Just clean the lid without removing the O-ring. Seems like a really bad idea for cleaning - possible infections.
• Try a fermonster or similar fermenter. A bucket is really much better when using a swamp cooler - the handle is very helpful.

Any suggestions?

 

[Broken Crow]

Use Lowes lid with O-ring and notch cut out. Possible infections due to hand-cut notch.

That's what I would go with.

That sealed very well and allowed me to remove the O-ring,

As long as you properly sanitized all the bits before sealing and it does indeed stay sealed, any microbe growth will be on the outside..just handle carfully when removing but sealed is sealed and you could grow an inch of mold on the outside but it won't get in if it's truly tight.
Do you have or have you considered CO2 gear or a spigot in the bucket?

 

[Deadalus]

Did you consider anything smaller like a 3 gallon Fermonster with spigot?

 

[mac_1103]

What did you ferment in when you were doing five gallon batches?

 

[IslandLizard]

Use Lowes lid with O-ring and notch cut out. Possible infections due to hand-cut notch.

Is that a screw-on lid perhaps?
Can you post a link to that lid, and a picture of the area with the notch?

The past few years I've gone to brewing many "half batches," using 3.5-4 gallon "half-size" buckets with screw-on lids that contain a narrow channel with a skinny o-ring.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Any chance you could go with a 5 gallon corny keg with a floating dip tube? You can vent through the gas post to a bottle of starsan for a bubbler, take samples through the liquid post, and even bottle from it if that’s what you want to do. It’s fairly easy to pick up used equipment on Craigslist if you need it.

 

[ncbrewer]

That's what I would go with.

As long as you properly sanitized all the bits before sealing and it does indeed stay sealed, any microbe growth will be on the outside..just handle carfully when removing but sealed is sealed and you could grow an inch of mold on the outside but it won't get in if it's truly tight.
Do you have or have you considered CO2 gear or a spigot in the bucket?

I wouldn't feel 100% about an infection on the outside of the fermenter, but that might be the best option.
I wouldn't use a fermenter with a spigot because I control temperature with a swamp cooler. No CO2 in my future - cramped brewing space and trying to keep it simple.

 

[ncbrewer]

Did you consider anything smaller like a 3 gallon Fermonster with spigot?

I thought about a fermonster, but no spigot. But my fermenter is in a bedroom closet, so dripping wouldn't be allowed. Lifting a fermonster out of the swamp cooler without a handle would probably mean using a lifting harness - I think it would be messy.

 

[ncbrewer]

What did you ferment in when you were doing five gallon batches?

I used a 7.9 gallon bucket (Ale Pale). The lid had an O-ring. It was designed so that the O-ring could be removed easily.

 

[Yesfan]

If you're wanting to stay with buckets, go to a bakery or bakery dept in your local supermarket and ask them for their cake icing buckets. You should be able to find any size you want, under 5 gallons, as most of these places throw them away or recycle them. The really nice workers may even rinse them out for you. It shouldn't be hard to find a size and style you want based on the brand of ingredients the bakeries use.

I think the gamma lid option might be worth considering. You mentioned getting samples might be a chore, but you could (I'm guessing here, really don't know) maybe drill a hole in the lid and put a 1.5" triclamp as a port for drawing samples, dry hopping, etc. If that works, it would keep you from unscrewing the whole lid to do that.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think the gamma lid option might be worth considering.

Sadly, not for fermenters.
The collar part of the Gamma lid snaps over the bucket rim. That collar is very difficult to remove, which needs to be done to clean and sanitize for each batch.

Now the "icing" buckets are very useful, yes.

 

[Yesfan]

Sadly, not for fermenters.
The collar part of the Gamma lid snaps over the bucket rim. That collar is very difficult to remove, which needs to be done to clean and sanitize for each batch.

I've had some standard lids that were hard to remove, so I could imagine. There's those bucket lid tools that are cheap. He could use one of those I'd think and be somewhat ok. It might not be easy, but better for and easier on your hands. Plus, I liked the idea of being able to add a triclamp port. The gamma lids look beefy compared to the run of the mill standard lids which I had a few in the past crack and spiderweb when trying to drill a hole for a grommet and airlock.

OP, Another option is a Fermonster and carboy harness. Instead of ice water (and the drippy mess), just use frozen bottles of ice and rotate them in/out as needed to keep the temps low. Just keep the cooler part heavily covered to hold the cold in. Chip Walton on Chop & Brew used this and it seemed to work when he made a rice lager in a recent video.

 

[Ramjet]

The bakery at my local grocery store has food grade 5 gallon buckets that frosting comes in with a removable o ring. I get them for free by asking nicely. Or a 3 gallon fermonster without a spigot.

 

[Broken Crow]

I'm throwing in my vote for a 3G Fermonster, but with a disclaimer: I'm biased because in future you could add a modded lid to do O2-free transfers, but since you've been on here for 13 years I'm sure you're already well aware of that so I'll repress my urge to proselytize.. I will though mention another possible alternative offered up by our late mutual sometimes 'out there' freind who found an elegant and practical way to add some Stainless Steel 'bling' to an economical FV; Bracconiere gave us the milk-can:

Here's a 3G one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1265553436...DroA0D30x4+k27/IIt8oeYbEnA==|tkp:BFBMvNqc4bVk
Just a thought,

 

[ncbrewer]

Is that a screw-on lid perhaps?
Can you post a link to that lid, and a picture of the area with the notch?

The past few years I've gone to brewing many "half batches," using 3.5-4 gallon "half-size" buckets with screw-on lids that contain a narrow channel with a skinny o-ring.

Not a screw-on just snap-on. Photos of the lid with the hand-cut notch below:

Where did you find the 4 gallon buckets that seal well? That might be just what I need.

Did the O-ring come out without damage?

 

[ncbrewer]

Any chance you could go with a 5 gallon corny keg with a floating dip tube? You can vent through the gas post to a bottle of starsan for a bubbler, take samples through the liquid post, and even bottle from it if that’s what you want to do. It’s fairly easy to pick up used equipment on Craigslist if you need it.

That's more involved that I'm looking for, but it's something to consider. I think I could put a keg in the swamp cooler.

 

[ncbrewer]

If you're wanting to stay with buckets, go to a bakery or bakery dept in your local supermarket and ask them for their cake icing buckets. You should be able to find any size you want, under 5 gallons, as most of these places throw them away or recycle them. The really nice workers may even rinse them out for you. It shouldn't be hard to find a size and style you want based on the brand of ingredients the bakeries use.

This looks really good. But I'm wondering now why the bakery's buckets seal and mine doesn't. Yours sealed well I assume? Do they have O-ring seals, and if so, are they removable and resusable? The new lid that I got at Askews is called "Leaktite", and the employee told me he was a painter for many years and used these lids. His experience was very good - no leakage and protected the paint from air. Maybe I just got one that isn't quite right. I've checked it a few times, and I'm confident it's on securely.

 

[ncbrewer]

The bakery at my local grocery store has food grade 5 gallon buckets that frosting comes in with a removable o ring. I get them for free by asking nicely. Or a 3 gallon fermonster without a spigot.

You answered my question about the O-ring. So that might be my answer, assuming I can get the right size from our bakery. As I said, the issue with the lid from Lowes is that the O-ring really isn't removable - I ruined it when I removed it. Do they give you a good seal, with the normal bubbles in the airlock?

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm throwing in my vote for a 3G Fermonster, but with a disclaimer: I'm biased because in future you could add a modded lid to do O2-free transfers, but since you've been on here for 13 years I'm sure you're already well aware of that so I'll repress my urge to proselytize.. I will though mention another possible alternative offered up by our late mutual sometimes 'out there' freind who found an elegant and practical way to add some Stainless Steel 'bling' to an economical FV; Bracconiere gave us the milk-can:
View attachment 856876
Here's a 3G one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/126555343636?_nkw=stainless+steel+milk+can&var=427598913225&itmmeta=01J6Q175MS9C3JQA29YKMYTXCY&hash=item1d77494b14:g:nuMAAOSwT6ldtF0U&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx+KZ9MfhVJKnU0ONeBxpxK+X0DXdw93890YrAP6F+FMdo1Taz/IHbQTADJ0ST2EoZMI0wh1n8ZEBZiXgjThFDRGRGVx3WKHb2rXSPCjcS0MR/6F72MmoK2twLPPnO11S81VKxNLYCs2JWef4Hq7OdyWUfexzpcp2AxufmZDP8gITxmZrVdW6VnTMukXjAfrNhBJQBaiAP8pyzqze+H3+Ak7Srmnbg2cMwTcKH4UUvI+p1fyL2FzTFqppIFtHYMgYdlDq9B6eT2DhJbRcJ49jFhXk4xQH+DroA0D30x4+k27/IIt8oeYbEnA==|tkp:BFBMvNqc4bVk
Just a thought,

I looked for fermonsters. It seems they jump from 3 gallon to 6 gallon. I'm hoping for a 4 or 5 gallon fermenter. But I haven't ruled it out. The milk can isn't in the budget, but it's good to see something that came from Bracconiere - rip.

 

[IslandLizard]

Where did you find the 4 gallon buckets that seal well? That might be just what I need.

Did the O-ring come out without damage?

The ones in the link (below) look exactly like the ones I use, same size. They are actually 3.5 gallons not 4, as I erroneously stated previously:
https://affordablebuckets.com/produ...lastic-bucket-with-plastic-handle-lid-10pack/

Mind, the beige color in the main picture in the link is from poor photography/color correction skills. They are white! The other images on that page are fine, what they look in real life.
A (box of) 10 of these buckets at that place ship for $53 to MD. You may be able to get a better overall price elsewhere. Shipping is still gonna be high, though, given the size.

I got mine years ago, from a guy at our bulk grain buy. They were used as "recovery buckets" for bagged, non-poisonous (analytical and buffer) chemicals. I so wish I had picked up more of them...
I drilled a 1" hole in the lid.

 

[IslandLizard]

Did the O-ring come out without damage?

It takes a little instruction and care to remove and correctly reseat them, without damage. Especially removing them the very first time.

Those (neoprene?) o-rings have a round-ish profile, about 1/8" thick. They're one continuous, seamless piece.
The o-ring lies in a narrow channel that slides over the bucket rim, making the seal, when screwing the lid down.

The inside of the lid has protrusions, I guess for rigidness/stability, forming little 3-sided boxes. You'll need a long-bristle scrub brush to clean into those deep(ish) 90° corners well.

 

[IslandLizard]

I bought another lid and cut out a notch in the outside of the rim so that I could reach the O-ring to remove it. That sealed very well and allowed me to remove the O-ring, but I’m concerned about the hand-cut notch having any nicks that might harbor microbes.

That cut-out notch is on the outside of the fermenter, there should be no issues with that causing infections since the o-ring should make a (decent) seal.

For good measure you could smooth the edges of that notch. Trim smooth with a sharp knife, or a dremel tool and/or some fine grit sandpaper.

I have not used that exact gasketed lid-type you cut the notch out, but something quite similar (in deep blue), with an even higher outside flange. Those really need to be pressed down hard until you can hear the click, all the way around, in order to make a seal.

That said, I have no sealing issues with the regular ROPAK type snap-on lids that come with regular 6.5 gallon ROPAK brew buckets. Although they don't have a (rubber) seal, I can still pressurize those to around 10 psi, with the lid bulging. I would expect them making a good seal on 5 gallon Lowe's/HD buckets too, the rim looks very similar. But small dimensional deviations can ruin that chance quickly.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I ferment most of my 3 gallon batches in a 5 gallon, food-grade bucket from a hardware store. I don't worry about the lid or any airlock -- just pop the normal lid on, and set a 1-gallon jug of water on top to keep the lid pressed down.

But if you really want to watch bubbles in the airlock, then use a strip of plastic cling wrap around the top edge of your bucket, and then your bucket lid will fit very securely (and then you will need to use the airlock).

 

[Ramjet]

Do they give you a good seal, with the normal bubbles in the airlock?

I have only used them for grain storage so far. I would think they would work as a fermentation bucket. The price is right just drill a hole for a grommet for an air lock. I know someone who makes great beer and mead and uses a sanitized piece of aluminum foil on his fermenter no air lock.

 

[Snuffy]

This is what I use for small batch stuff. Works well. Claims a 3 gallon capacity and I have brewed 3 gallon batches in it, but limited headspace may preclude anything with raucous fermentation. Beats a bucket any day.

https://barproducts.com/products/fe...t-3-gallon?_pos=1&_psq=fermenter&_ss=e&_v=1.0

 

[ncbrewer]

I ferment most of my 3 gallon batches in a 5 gallon, food-grade bucket from a hardware store. I don't worry about the lid or any airlock -- just pop the normal lid on, and set a 1-gallon jug of water on top to keep the lid pressed down.

But if you really want to watch bubbles in the airlock, then use a strip of plastic cling wrap around the top edge of your bucket, and then your bucket lid will fit very securely (and then you will need to use the airlock).

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Naturally, I don't want oxidized beer. But it seems your experience is that you don't get oxidation just because of an imperfect seal - it's probably a matter of degree. I've been lucky enough that my bucket fermenters have always sealed well, so I don't have experience with this. My first batch with this lid (imperfect seal) is still in the fermenter. I'll see how it comes out. If ok, I'll just stay with what I have. (If I was an IPA fanatic, I wouldn't feel quite the same, but I don't brew IPAs.) I know there are lots of brewers doing 2.5 gallon batches, and certainly some must be using bucket fermenters. I've been seriously wondering how they all do it, since I've had such a hard time getting a bucket and lid that I'm satisfied with. Your experience indicates a perfect seal just isn't as critical as I thought.

 

[Yesfan]

That said, I have no sealing issues with the regular ROPAK type snap-on lids that come with regular 6.5 gallon ROPAK brew buckets. Although they don't have a (rubber) seal, I can still pressurize those to around 10 psi, with the lid bulging. I would expect them making a good seal on 5 gallon Lowe's/HD buckets too, the rim looks very similar. But small dimensional deviations can ruin that chance quickly.

@ncbrewer , If Island Lizard can pressurize his buckets to 10psi with lids that have NO seal, then that would be the route I'd take. No seals, no worries about torn gaskets. Truth be told, some of the buckets I had gotten from my supermarket, I didn't worry about the seals. I just washed, rinsed, and sanitized as normal with no issues.

If you can pressurize the bucket just high enough to do transfers to your kegs (2-3psi for me), then you shouldn't have to worry about oxidation. Ropak for the win.

 

[IslandLizard]

These are the ROPAK lids I'm referring to, mounted on regular 6.5 gallon ROPAK type "Ale Pails."
I can pressurize them with my CO2 tank to around 10 psi to purge the headspace after adding dry hops, etc.

 

[ncbrewer]

Many thanks to all for your ideas. I now have a plan in place.