Coors banquet

[Miraculix]

I don't undestand why additional enzymes pop up so often when Coors light recipes are discussed. I do not think that Coors uses them. Also their beer does not taste like they would use them. The German Version seems to be a different recipe btw. as there is only malt listed as fermentables.

But just to make sure i've had some of the British ones which should be the same us the USian version.

 

[Broothru]

I don't undestand why additional enzymes pop up so often when Coors light recipes are discussed. I do not think that Coors uses them. Also their beer does not taste like they would use them. The German Version seems to be a different recipe btw. as there is only malt listed as fermentables.

But just to make sure i've had some of the British ones which should be the same us the USian version.

I wouldn't generally feel the need to use them. But 4~5 years ago I was playing around with amyloglucosidaise in an attempt to brew the then, in vogue, style of Brut beers. Since amylo can chop certain glucosidic bonds (1,6 and 1,4) it can allow terminal gravities to reach values below S.G. 1.000. I was routinely getting final gravities around 0.996-0.998. Since I had obtained a 1 liter volume while only using a few ml in any given batch, I had a lot to play around with. Lighter, less alcohol and low carb beers were a test-bed for my experiments. My adaptation of Coor's Banquet into a Coor's Light was such a venture. It actually proved to be quite effective. I'll probably revisit the method as I wade into the realm of Low Alcohol/No alcohol beers that I'm now starting to try.

 

[tderanleau]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Imagine my surprise in finding that indeed I had also used Chinook in my most recent recipe for Coor's Banquet. Anyway, here's the most recent iteration from about four years ago:

4# Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner
3# Rahr Pale Ale malt
2# Flaked Rice
8 oz CaraHell
8 oz acidulated

0.15 oz Hallertau Magnum FWH (5.3 IBU)
0.50 oz Chinook :05 min boil (8.3 IBU)
1.00 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh :20 min steep/whirlpool @ 90C/195F (1.5 IBU)
0.50 oz Chinook :20 min steep/whirlpool @ 90C/195F (5.1 IBU)

9.00 gallons distilled water (total: mash, sparge and top-off)
3.00 ml lactic acid (mash)
2.00 gr "Trifecta" (mash; BrewTan B, ascorbic acid, Sodium metabisulfate)
1.00 gr "Trifecta" (late boil)
1.00 gr Calcium sulfate (mash)
0.75 gr Calcium chloride (mash)
0.25 gr MgSO4 (Epsom)(mash)

Wyeast 2105-PC Rocky Mountain Lager (or other Andechs strain German lager yeast)

O.G. 1.042
F.G. 1.008
ABV 4.5%
SRM 3.5
IBU 20.2
BU/GU 0.493
SO4/Cl 1.8 (slightly bitter)

My notes indicate that the finished beer was very tasty and was a very good approximation of Coor's Banquet Beer. The calculated values for the hopping rates are a little higher (20.2 IBU) than normal, the sulfate:cloride ratio is slightly above "balanced" or "slightly malty", and yet the bitterness:gravity ratio of 0.493 is near the bottom range for lagers. I could probably delete the Epsom salt next time. As for the bitterness values, I can't explain it other than to say the AA% of both the Magnum and Chinook hops I used were listed on the high side and may have skewed the calculated values. I don't recall, and my tasting notes don't indicate, that the beer was in any way too hoppy however.

So there's the recipe and the numbers. I wouldn't call it a clone, but it was a close approximation, as well as a worthy tribute beer. Now you've gotten me all excited to brew it again! Cheers!

Whirlpool for an American lager/coors? Interesting

 

[Broothru]

Why would you not whirlpool?

 

[tderanleau]

Why would you not whirlpool?

Coors is not a hoppy beer at all, if anything just a light clean bitterness with hardly any noticeable hop character

 

[Broothru]

Coors is not a hoppy beer at all, if anything just a light clean bitterness with hardly any noticeable hop character

True, but 2%AA Mittelfruh in a :20 flameout hop stand at 160-170F is going to give much more flavor/aroma than bitterness.

 

[day_trippr]

But...is that flavor in The Real Thing?
Admittedly it's been awhile since I enjoyed a Banquet but I don't recall "much more flavor" being part of its nature...

Cheers!

 

[Miraculix]

But...is that flavor in The Real Thing?
Admittedly it's been awhile since I enjoyed a Banquet but I don't recall "much more flavor" being part of its nature...

Cheers!

There is literally zero hop flavour in Coors light and very very little bitterness. I do not know about banquet as I never had one.

 

[bwible]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Imagine my surprise in finding that indeed I had also used Chinook in my most recent recipe for Coor's Banquet. Anyway, here's the most recent iteration from about four years ago:

4# Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner
3# Rahr Pale Ale malt
2# Flaked Rice
8 oz CaraHell
8 oz acidulated

0.15 oz Hallertau Magnum FWH (5.3 IBU)
0.50 oz Chinook :05 min boil (8.3 IBU)
1.00 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh :20 min steep/whirlpool @ 90C/195F (1.5 IBU)
0.50 oz Chinook :20 min steep/whirlpool @ 90C/195F (5.1 IBU)

9.00 gallons distilled water (total: mash, sparge and top-off)
3.00 ml lactic acid (mash)
2.00 gr "Trifecta" (mash; BrewTan B, ascorbic acid, Sodium metabisulfate)
1.00 gr "Trifecta" (late boil)
1.00 gr Calcium sulfate (mash)
0.75 gr Calcium chloride (mash)
0.25 gr MgSO4 (Epsom)(mash)

Wyeast 2105-PC Rocky Mountain Lager (or other Andechs strain German lager yeast)

O.G. 1.042
F.G. 1.008
ABV 4.5%
SRM 3.5
IBU 20.2
BU/GU 0.493
SO4/Cl 1.8 (slightly bitter)

My notes indicate that the finished beer was very tasty and was a very good approximation of Coor's Banquet Beer. The calculated values for the hopping rates are a little higher (20.2 IBU) than normal, the sulfate:cloride ratio is slightly above "balanced" or "slightly malty", and yet the bitterness:gravity ratio of 0.493 is near the bottom range for lagers. I could probably delete the Epsom salt next time. As for the bitterness values, I can't explain it other than to say the AA% of both the Magnum and Chinook hops I used were listed on the high side and may have skewed the calculated values. I don't recall, and my tasting notes don't indicate, that the beer was in any way too hoppy however.

So there's the recipe and the numbers. I wouldn't call it a clone, but it was a close approximation, as well as a worthy tribute beer. Now you've gotten me all excited to brew it again! Cheers!

You needed half a pound of acid malt AND lactic acid? What is your starting ph, 16?

 

[Broothru]

You needed half a pound of acid malt AND lactic acid? What is your starting ph, 16?

Good point. My normal well water chemistry is highly buffered so I have to acidify quite a lot to get pH down. I like to mash around 4.9-5.0, but I used distilled water for this brew. I’m at a loss to explain it. A quarter to half a pound of acid malt isn’t unusual for me if I use filtered well water however.

Might have been a case of ‘either or’ and I selected “both” acid and acidulated. I doubt that I actually did though since I check pH during early mash, pre-boil, post boil and before packaging. Assuming a pH of 7.0 for distilled water and little buffering, I can’t imagine needing to add 5ml lactic to the mash to bring the pH down much with that grist bill.

Guess I’ll reverse engineer the recipe with Bru’in Water to see if the beer was actually battery acid. I’ve brewed some in the past that probably tasted worse than that!

 

[bwible]

Good point. My normal well water chemistry is highly buffered so I have to acidify quite a lot to get pH down. I like to mash around 4.9-5.0, but I used distilled water for this brew. I’m at a loss to explain it. A quarter to half a pound of acid malt isn’t unusual for me if I use filtered well water however.

Might have been a case of ‘either or’ and I selected “both” acid and acidulated. I doubt that I actually did though since I check pH during early mash, pre-boil, post boil and before packaging. Assuming a pH of 7.0 for distilled water and little buffering, I can’t imagine needing to add 5ml lactic to the mash to bring the pH down much with that grist bill.

Guess I’ll reverse engineer the recipe with Bru’in Water to see if the beer was actually battery acid. I’ve brewed some in the past that probably tasted worse than that!

I generally use one or the other. I had been using acid malt because I originally didn’t like the idea of handling the acid solution. The more I read about it said it was no big deal so I tried it and everybody was right. It wasn’t as big a deal as I first thought.

I brew 3 gallon batches most of the time. If I use acid malt for a light beer lke a lager with no dark grains then it usually ends up being 2.5 or 3 ounces which usually pushes the 3% they tell you to keep it under. If I use 88% lactic acid then its usually 2.5 or 3 ml. I guess yours seems like more because you’re making a bigger batch than I make.

I will say this too - my efficiency really went up once I started using the acid or acid malt. Like from 74% to something like 82% just from that one little change.

 

[Broothru]

I generally use one or the other. I had been using acid malt because I originally didn’t like the idea of handling the acid solution. The more I read about it said it was no big deal so I tried it and everybody was right. It wasn’t as big a deal as I first thought.

I brew 3 gallon batches most of the time. If I use acid malt for a light beer lke a lager with no dark grains then it usually ends up being 2.5 or 3 ounces which usually pushes the 3% they tell you to keep it under. If I use 88% lactic acid then its usually 2.5 or 3 ml. I guess yours seems like more because you’re making a bigger batch than I make.

I will say this too - my efficiency really went up once I started using the acid or acid malt. Like from 74% to something like 82% just from that one little change.

Yeah, there’s that, plus the buffering and residual alkalinity in my well water. The taste and overall quality of my well water is pretty good, plus it is double filtered before it ever reaches the tap. But, it is stubbornly alkaline, though oddly not overly alkaline. It just takes a bit more acidification to get the needle moving towards pH 5.0 for mashing.

Agree on the efficiency boost as well. My mash efficiencies are almost always in the low to mid 80s range. Acidification in the proper range makes a significant difference.

 

[Broothru]

But...is that flavor in The Real Thing?
Admittedly it's been awhile since I enjoyed a Banquet but I don't recall "much more flavor" being part of its nature...

Cheers!

Emphasis on aroma rather than flavor, and “aroma/flavor” relative to “bitterness”. The floral aromatics in Hallertau (at least my perception of them) is subtle and certainly not overwhelming, kinda’ like a nice Helles on a summer’s day in the Marienplatz in Munchen.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

These huge companies have usually the maltsters create specific malts which closely match their requirements. Which means, we can only try to taste match the beer but the exact malts they really use are unavailable to us. However, we can come usually reasonably close with a good idea about the final product and how each malt affects the result.

Thanx for not bashing him over the head with the "Horse Pee" rhetoric. If someone wants to clone a Macro, feed them well.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Coors malts their own grain, which is grown for them by local farmers with seed supplied by Coors.

To the best of my knowledge, Banquet, which is only brewed in Golden, is their 2 row and rice. No caramel. Back when I worked for them, Dr. Keith Villa told me they did use whole rice and a separate cereal cooker. Currently, I believe they pulled out most of the cereal cookers and are using rice syrup. I see on their web site they state corn syrup.

The Coors yeast is sometimes available as Wyeast 2105-PC Rocky Mountain Lager.

I have been making a Banquet tribute for many years in many brewpubs. I try to use a malt from Root Shoot Malting or Colorado Malting Company, as they both are farmers that used to grow for Coors. I only use flaked rice for the adjunct, but go ahead and try flaked corn. 20% adjunct is what I try for.

Good luck!

I once brewed with Papazian's Cry Havoc at higher temps ~85F, it wasn't a coor's clone but at that temp it had that coor's signature flair for sure. Everyone said "It tastes like Coors" many times on that keg until it was gone, as well as I. It was an Alt and man it made a good one!
I think they rebranded the name of it to "Fist Bump" now?

I know they swear it's Budweiser yeast, but maybe they are covering their ass's when Charlie, who lives in Colorado, got Coors yeast? If it can stand high temps, ergo fast to market, just why wouldn't it be the Coors yeast?

I have brewed with Havoc/Fistbump many times and NEVER has it had any Budweiser signatures, apple and such, -always Coor's every time.

Maybe the name "Cry Havoc" was Charlies reactionary description of Coors threats of legal action when they realized he had thier yeast? So a deflection toward their competition ie. Budweiser was agreed upon by both parties?

JusSayin...

 

[Red over White]

Thanx for not bashing him over the head with the "Horse Pee" rhetoric. If someone wants to clone a Macro, feed them well.

I think coming incredibly close to macro lager is a feather in your cap. It takes dedication, research and perseverance. I've suffered the indignation of wanting to produce clean lagers from other homebrewers for 30 years... I don't care either. With nothing to hide behind, clean macro style lagers are my white whale.

 

[Wayne1]

@AmarikinBrew
Cry Havoc was originally from a keg of Budweiser.

When I was Brewmaster at SandLot Brewery at Coors Field, Charlie came by to visit. He told me the story how he was given a sample of yeast by the former Director of Brewing R&D at Coors, Finn Knudsen. Finn told Charlie that this was a very special yeast and to enjoy brewing with it. Charlie had some numbers memorized that he thought were the Coors reference numbers. I called up my contact at the Coors R&D yeast lab and gave her the numbers. She called me back a short while later to tell me the numbers cross referenced to a keg of Budweiser.

 

[Miraculix]

I think coming incredibly close to macro lager is a feather in your cap. It takes dedication, research and perseverance. I've suffered the indignation of wanting to produce clean lagers from other homebrewers for 30 years... I don't care either. With nothing to hide behind, clean macro style lagers are my white whale.

Just wanted to write something similar. Macro lagers are incredibly difficult to do right so everybody who manages to do that should deserve utmost respect for fulfilling this difficult task.

I regularly buy myself some cans of Kirin Ichiban, man this beer is SO clean, SO well balanced with such a low hopping rate, unbelievable. For me, Kirin is the king of macro lagers but Coors follows closely.

I really like them for what they are.

 

[Broothru]

Just wanted to write something similar. Macro lagers are incredibly difficult to do right so everybody who manages to do that should deserve utmost respect for fulfilling this difficult task.

I regularly buy myself some cans of Kirin Ichiban, man this beer is SO clean, SO well balanced with such a low hopping rate, unbelievable. For me, Kirin is the king of macro lagers but Coors follows closely.

I really like them for what they are.

I’m in whole-hearted agreement. The delicate (not ‘thin’ or ‘watery’) beers are by far the most difficult to brew. Kirin Ichiban is as delicate and intricate as origami or a Japanese watercolor painting. I won’t even attempt to duplicate it.

My other White Whale is crafting a decent Kolsch or a Munich Helles. Those I will attempt, but have yet to find satisfaction.

There’s a reason why macro beers like Coors have survived in the marketplace where so many others have failed, and it’s not simply because of slick marketing or cult-like consumerism. Beer snobs may condescend, but the macros are producing a very high quality beer that is consistently popular with a large segment of the population. Just because a person may prefer something else doesn’t diminish that fact.

 

[couchsending]

North American 2 row
20-30% flaked Corn
Hops no later than 30 left in the boil
Andechs fermented at 68 under 7-10psi

I have no idea what color Coors is but you might need something to get it a bit darker as this malt bill will produce a very light colored beer.

There’s definitely no European malt. Hops are probably all in extract form and all added towards the beginning of the boil maybe last addition with 30 left?

The key ingredient is the yeast and fermenting it under pressure. Andechs produces some isoamyl acetate especially at warmer temps. Coors is full of this ester. I know Coors ferments it at that temp and under pressure but not sure what pressure.

Even then trying to “clone” and industrialized product like this at home is honestly a waste of time. But this should get you something sort of similar.

 

[Broothru]

@AmarikinBrew
Cry Havoc was originally from a keg of Budweiser.

When I was Brewmaster at SandLot Brewery at Coors Field, Charlie came by to visit. He told me the story how he was given a sample of yeast by the former Director of Brewing R&D at Coors, Finn Knudsen. Finn told Charlie that this was a very special yeast and to enjoy brewing with it. Charlie had some numbers memorized that he thought were the Coors reference numbers. I called up my contact at the Coors R&D yeast lab and gave her the numbers. She called me back a short while later to tell me the numbers cross referenced to a keg of Budweiser.

I wonder then if Budweiser’s house strain of yeast is an Andechs isolate or possible descendant strain. The Coors’ yeast is widely assumed to be Andechs. If so, I might have just gained some new respect for Bud, ‘cause I love me some Andechs.

 

[Broothru]

North American 2 row
20-30% flaked Corn
Hops no later than 30 left in the boil
Andechs fermented at 68 under 7-10psi

I have no idea what color Coors is but you might need something to get it a bit darker as this malt bill will produce a very light colored beer.

There’s definitely no European malt. Hops are probably all in extract form and all added towards the beginning of the boil maybe last addition with 30 left?

The key ingredient is the yeast and fermenting it under pressure. Andechs produces some isoamyl acetate especially at warmer temps. Coors is full of this ester. I know Coors ferments it at that temp and under pressure but not sure what pressure.

Even then trying to “clone” and industrialized product like this at home is honestly a waste of time. But this should get you something sort of similar.

Good information to know. I wouldn’t assume that the pressure would have to be all that much to suppress ester production, certainly well under 1 BAR, maybe around 8 psig with an increase near the end of fermentation.

At 68F, the yeast should be active enough to clean up after themselves when their work is completed. I wonder if that “creamed corn” aroma comes from all that adjunct ?

 

[Miraculix]

I’m in whole-hearted agreement. The delicate (not ‘thin’ or ‘watery’) beers are by far the most difficult to brew. Kirin Ichiban is as delicate and intricate as origami or a Japanese watercolor painting. I won’t even attempt to duplicate it.

My other White Whale is crafting a decent Kolsch or a Munich Helles. Those I will attempt, but have yet to find satisfaction.

There’s a reason why macro beers like Coors have survived in the marketplace where so many others have failed, and it’s not simply because of slick marketing or cult-like consumerism. Beer snobs may condescend, but the macros are producing a very high quality beer that is consistently popular with a large segment of the population. Just because a person may prefer something else doesn’t diminish that fact.

Try all Pilsner malt for 5%abv, 25 ibus bittering only with Mittelfrüh, Imperial Yeast Harvest for a Helles. Step mash with a hoch kurz schedule, 30min at 62 c, 30 min at 72c, 15 minutes at 77c.

Fermentation temperature is not that important with this strain.

This is really simple and will result in a extremely good result.

Every step is crucial!

 

[Wayne1]

@couchsending I do not believe Coors banquet is fermented under pressure. I could be wrong, it is almost 30 years since I worked for Coors and many things have changed, When I was there, Banquet was fermented in 2000 bbl, glass lined, horizontal, cubical, steel tanks that were built on site. I do not believe these tanks could take much, if any pressure.

Coors and AB both have very advanced yeast labs with thousands of strains in cryo chambers. I believe their house strains are unique to each company. There may be some commercial strains that have some similar properties, but I do not believe Andechs is used by either one of those companies.

In 2014, I won a bronze medal at GABF in the Cream Ale category using a recipe of 20% flaked rice, Colorado Malting Company Lager Malt and 15 IBU of Colorado grown Cascade hops. 1st and 2nd place went to Pabst for Primo and Old Style. This simple recipe, brewed with a lager yeast, should compete well with most all American style lagers.

 

[gorlox18]

Im late to the party but tuning in to see if an extract recipe ends up settled upon. How would one sub for acidulanted malt for extract brewing? Dump lactic?

 

[Miraculix]

Im late to the party but tuning in to see if an extract recipe ends up settled upon. How would one sub for acidulanted malt for extract brewing? Dump lactic?

Why would you want acidulated malt in an extract recipe? Acidulated malt is for optimising the mash ph. You don't need that in an extract recipe as the mash is already done.

 

[gorlox18]

Why would you want acidulated malt in an extract recipe? Acidulated malt is for optimising the mash ph. You don't need that in an extract recipe as the mash is already done.

thanks - i didn’t know, but that makes a lot of sense. I’m new if it wasn’t apparent lol

I saw the grain to extract conversion posted and without digging too deep figured I’d have to account for every ingredient.

 

[Mr. Vern]

This has turned out to be a good thread! Interesting yeast discussion; Cry Havoc / Fist Bump is a good story unleashed from the vaults at Coors and possibly being a harvest from some Budweiser.

I have always been impressed with Coors since learning more about their history and dedication.

 

[Red over White]

I can't speak for banquet beer, but most midsize-large breweries ferment under pressure if they use tall ccv's for their lagers or their ales. I believe pressure is one of the key components in getting really close to cloning macro beer. 50 feet of liquid in a tall macro style ccv will have a static pressure of ~21 psi baked in before any top pressure is applied for carbonation. Personally, I think fermenting under pressure gives a fuller mouthfeel, especially when finishing with the real low final gravities associated with these styles.

On a fresh pitch I natively allow pressure to build, on a repitch I very slowly depressurize the yeast before reusing and will apply pressure with pure oxygen in stages in the first 6-8 hours. These methods have worked exceptionally well for how simple they are. Since nobody has wrote the book on fermenting under pressure at the homebrew level yet, trial and error is what we are left to. The results have been really, really good though.

 

[Broothru]

Try all Pilsner malt for 5%abv, 25 ibus bittering only with Mittelfrüh, Imperial Yeast Harvest for a Helles. Step mash with a hoch kurz schedule, 30min at 62 c, 30 min at 72c, 15 minutes at 77c.

Fermentation temperature is not that important with this strain.

This is really simple and will result in a extremely good result.

Every step is crucial!

This is almost exactly the recipe and process I use. Hoch Kurz dough-in @ 55C, Beta @ 62 for :45, Alpha @ 72C for :30, and mash out @ 77C for :15. Augustiner yeast (WLP-860, L-17, etc). Hops are all Mittelfruh with a small charge of Magnum FWH. 90% or more German pilsner with a light hand on Munich and acidulated. That’s it!

For some reason I can’t brew a Helles that lives up to my expectations. I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Southern Germany in the last 20 years, and consumed more than a few Helleses. The ones I’ve brewed are just ‘O.K.’, but I want to brew ‘great.’ Not quitting till I get it right.