Coors banquet

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I saw the grain to extract conversion posted

A couple of additional things to consider as you work on an extract version:

• steeping and mashing may yield slightly different results for various specialty malts. If you get "close" with steeping, a mini/partial mash may get you "closer".
• different brands of DME/LME are made with different source water - so the mineral content across various brands of DME/LME will vary. If you get "close" using a brand of extract (e.g. Briess DME), switching another brand (e.g. Muntons DME or Williams LME) may get you "closer"
• The recipe in AHA homebrewer of the year may also have some ideas on how to move your recipe from "close" to "closer".

 

[Broothru]

I can't speak for banquet beer, but most midsize-large breweries ferment under pressure if they use tall ccv's for their lagers or their ales. I believe pressure is one of the key components in getting really close to cloning macro beer. 50 feet of liquid in a tall macro style ccv will have a static pressure of ~21 psi baked in before any top pressure is applied for carbonation. Personally, I think fermenting under pressure gives a fuller mouthfeel, especially when finishing with the real low final gravities associated with these styles.

On a fresh pitch I natively allow pressure to build, on a repitch I very slowly depressurize the yeast before reusing and will apply pressure with pure oxygen in stages in the first 6-8 hours. These methods have worked exceptionally well for how simple they are. Since nobody has wrote the book on fermenting under pressure at the homebrew level yet, trial and error is what we are left to. The results have been really, really good though.

Excellent analysis on ‘pressure’ brewing with gravity. Although it should be obvious, we don’t always consider the pressure created by the weight of the beer column. I’ve got all the equipment for pressure fermentation but haven’t yet taken the leap. Your process seems interesting enough that I think I’ll give it a try. My Unitank has a 30 psig maximum pressure limit, but normal operating pressure is suggested at 15 psig, so I won’t be going much higher than 1BAR.

 

[Miraculix]

This is almost exactly the recipe and process I use. Hoch Kurz dough-in @ 55C, Beta @ 62 for :45, Alpha @ 72C for :30, and mash out @ 77C for :15. Augustiner yeast (WLP-860, L-17, etc). Hops are all Mittelfruh with a small charge of Magnum FWH. 90% or more German pilsner with a light hand on Munich and acidulated. That’s it!

For some reason I can’t brew a Helles that lives up to my expectations. I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Southern Germany in the last 20 years, and consumed more than a few Helleses. The ones I’ve brewed are just ‘O.K.’, but I want to brew ‘great.’ Not quitting till I get it right.

Have you tried the Augustiner strain? That is imperial yeast harvest. I tried to brew an american lager with it once with some American dry hops... totally tasted like a helles! That yeast can do only one thing, but that one thing it does exceptionally well. Helles.

Now that I am thinking about it, a bock brewed with it would probably also be very nice!

Oh, and please, no Munich malt. Helles is Pilsner only. It is basically a smash by default.

 

[Wayne1]

One more fun fact, Coors Banquet, like most beers brewed in high volume breweries, is brewed as a high gravity beer. Roughly 16P or 1.065. It is fermented at that gravity and then "blended", diluted with de-aerated water inline while tranferring to the filter stage. The blending is closely monitored to hit the exact amount of alcohol in the end product.

 

[Broothru]

Have you tried the Augustiner strain? That is imperial yeast harvest. I tried to brew an american lager with it once with some American dry hops... totally tasted like a helles! That yeast can do only one thing, but that one thing it does exceptionally well. Helles.

Now that I am thinking about it, a bock brewed with it would probably also be very nice!

Oh, and please, no Munich malt. Helles is Pilsner only. It is basically a smash by default.

I’m beginning to think that’s where I’m making my mistake. 100% pilsner only next time. I usually tend to go with Weyermann German Pils, but that has been hard to source lately. Any preferred substitutes you’d recommend?

My hops are authentic Hallertau Mittelfruh, but I think I’ll drop the FWH Magnum in favor of a very small :60 minute charge and all the rest at :05 minutes.

I have used “Harvest” (Augustiner strain), as is WLP-860. Auggie is my second favorite strain, right behind Andechs, for Continental lagers. Both are very reliable as is 34/70.

 

[Miraculix]

I’m beginning to think that’s where I’m making my mistake. 100% pilsner only next time. I usually tend to go with Weyermann German Pils, but that has been hard to source lately. Any preferred substitutes you’d recommend?

My hops are authentic Hallertau Mittelfruh, but I think I’ll drop the FWH Magnum in favor of a very small :60 minute charge and all the rest at :05 minutes.

I have used “Harvest” (Augustiner strain), as is WLP-860. Auggie is my second favorite strain, right behind Andechs, for Continental lagers. Both are very reliable as is 34/70.

Mate, what part of "bittering only" didn't you understand?

Helles is extremely simple. Pilsner only, no dry hops, no late hops, ... 60 minutes only!

 

[Red over White]

One more fun fact, Coors Banquet, like most beers brewed in high volume breweries, is brewed as a high gravity beer. Roughly 16P or 1.065. It is fermented at that gravity and then "blended", diluted with de-aerated water inline while tranferring to the filter stage. The blending is closely monitored to hit the exact amount of alcohol in the end product.

I definitely end up with two distinctly different beers when brewing high gravity wort and either diluting in the fermenter or with deaerated water at package. The malt aroma and flavor are more pronounced in my house helles when diluted in the fermenter and the bitterness is much smoother when diluted into the keg. I last did this in March of 2021, the side by side experiment using the same wort was low oxygen from start to finish so everything was as equal as possible. I prefer the enhanced malt aroma and flavor in a helles and haven't diluted at package since.

 

[Red over White]

Excellent analysis on ‘pressure’ brewing with gravity. Although it should be obvious, we don’t always consider the pressure created by the weight of the beer column. I’ve got all the equipment for pressure fermentation but haven’t yet taken the leap. Your process seems interesting enough that I think I’ll give it a try. My Unitank has a 30 psig maximum pressure limit, but normal operating pressure is suggested at 15 psig, so I won’t be going much higher than 1BAR.

Definitely give it a go. I have had my all rounders up to 36 psi at 64° after high kräusen and have made some great beers. The amazing thing about pressure is that it kicks out a very mature lager so fast. The fermentation time is the same, but the lagers can be in peak condition in just 3 weeks. Almost all my ales are almost clear and ready in just 7-9 days (different pressure schedule though). I don't think I will ever ferment beer again without pressure. This just might get you a little closer your white whale.

 

[huckdavidson]

I've often wondered whether or not NAILs contain artificial coloring albeit in quantities which don't require they be listed with other ingredients. Not referring to things like Sinamar which comply with German purity laws but more to caramel or adjunct type colorings. Old homebrew books like Dave Lines - Brewing Beer Like Those You Buy, make generous use of caramel colorings in their recipes.

My thought was that to attain consistency of color in the end product it might be a necessity but I'm not sure. Does anyone know either way?

https://www.ddwcolor.com
https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an...ing-ingredients-required-be-listed-food-label

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I've often wondered whether or not NAILs contain artificial coloring albeit in quantities which don't require they be listed with other ingredients. Not referring to things like Sinamar which comply with German purity laws but more to caramel or adjunct type colorings. Old homebrew books like Dave Lines - Brewing Beer Like Those You Buy, make generous use of caramel colorings in their recipes.

My thought was that to attain consistency of color in the end product it might be a necessity but I'm not sure. Does anyone know either way?

https://www.ddwcolor.com
https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an...ing-ingredients-required-be-listed-food-label

Alot of breweries use caramel coloring. Newcastle for one. There are concerns that "burnt sugar" may cause cancer, and burnt sugar was used by alot other than breweries too.

see:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ineken-beer-brewer-caramel-coloring/22371053/

 

[huckdavidson]

Alot of breweries use caramel coloring. Newcastle for one. There are concerns that "burnt sugar" may cause cancer, and burnt sugar was used by alot other than breweries too.

see:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ineken-beer-brewer-caramel-coloring/22371053/

From that link:

Hari also has pushed Anheuser-Busch and MillerCoors to remove caramel coloring from any beer and ales using it.

Which doesn't indicate they've stopped using it nor what if any products it is actually used in.

It's probably safe to assume that caramel coloring (or equivalent) is just a standard non-listed ingredient in NAILs (and other beers) and it would be difficult to match the artificial coloring at a homebrew level (especially the lighter / brighter yellow colors).

 

[Miraculix]

Mini doses of sinamar should do it.

 

[huckdavidson]

Mini doses of sinamar should do it.

That may be appropriate for darker beers but definitely not for the lighter colored NAILs. AFAIK, Sinamar always darkens the substrate. The goal for NAILs is to lighten and brighten the beer color (towards a yellowish hue).

 

[DBhomebrew]

When you're working in volumes of hectalitres, a small amount of colouring is easy to control.

 

[Red over White]

The BMC types have malt made to there exact specs, color, DP, etc... even with adjuncts they can nail the color without extra ongoing expenses.

Last I saw Bud still doughs in at 113°F and step mashes from there. This mash schedule gives limit dextrinase plenty of time to eat and really drives attenuation before dilution artificially lowers it. I have experienced the same results and love starting at 113 for adjunct lagers diluted in the fermenter. Schlitz Gusto is a regular brew in my lineup.

 

[day_trippr]

Schlitz Gusto

I think Schlitz had the best ads and slogans back in the '60s.

"Go for the gusto!"
"When you're out of Schlitz you're out of beer!"
"You only go around once in life. So grab for all the gusto you can!"



Cheers!

 

[Red over White]

Schlitz and Hamms had some great commercials.

We had a Schlitz sign hanging out in front of our bar in Chicago for 50 years. It's actually making a cult like comeback.

 

[tderanleau]

The BMC types have malt made to there exact specs, color, DP, etc... even with adjuncts they can nail the color without extra ongoing expenses.

Last I saw Bud still doughs in at 113°F and step mashes from there. This mash schedule gives limit dextrinase plenty of time to eat and really drives attenuation before dilution artificially lowers it. I have experienced the same results and love starting at 113 for adjunct lagers diluted in the fermenter. Schlitz Gusto is a regular brew in my lineup.

Do you have any more info on buds mashing schedule?

 

[tderanleau]

The BMC types have malt made to there exact specs, color, DP, etc... even with adjuncts they can nail the color without extra ongoing expenses.

Last I saw Bud still doughs in at 113°F and step mashes from there. This mash schedule gives limit dextrinase plenty of time to eat and really drives attenuation before dilution artificially lowers it. I have experienced the same results and love starting at 113 for adjunct lagers diluted in the fermenter. Schlitz Gusto is a regular brew in my lineup.

Do you have any more info on buds mashing schedule?

 

[Red over White]

Do you have any more info on buds mashing schedule?

Bud has a competition every year amongst all of it's breweries. This video is on YouTube, but I don't remember the name of it. I will try searching again later today after work. It gives up a few things, but not very much. Their mash schedule will be based entirely by there raw ingredient numbers.

 

[tderanleau]

Bud has a competition every year amongst all of it's breweries. This video is on YouTube, but I don't remember the name of it. I will try searching again later today after work. It gives up a few things, but not very much. Their mash schedule will be based entirely by there raw ingredient numbers.

Yes pls post a link of the video

 

[Red over White]

This isn't the video I was referring to but, I will keep looking. I found it through watching this in suggested videos via a Yuengling documentary.

 

[tderanleau]

This isn't the video I was referring to but, I will keep looking. I found it through watching this in suggested videos via a Yuengling documentary.

@ 4:50 did y’all notice that dark grain they’re using? Wonder what that would be labeled as

They mash in at 109°, then slowly bring it up to mashing temperature

They lager/carbonate for 21 days

I know it’s bud, but coors probably doesn’t do much different

 

[tderanleau]

This isn't the video I was referring to but, I will keep looking. I found it through watching this in suggested videos via a Yuengling documentary.

https://www.marketingdive.com/news/...es-documentary-on-brewing-competition/558248/

 

[hottpeper13]

To get that golden color I add 7 grams to a 1.044 grist(5 gal) of a 500l malt like midnite wheat, black prince ,carafa III. It will go from straw to golden

 

[Red over White]

https://www.marketingdive.com/news/...es-documentary-on-brewing-competition/558248/

That's it, nice Google fu!

At one time Bud experimented with blowing air through the boiling wort for increased break or some such benefit, I never found out if it had positive results.

You can see by the size of Buds fermenters that they are under a good bit of built in static pressure. With that pressure they are going to package in under 28 days.

 

[tderanleau]

That's it, nice Google fu!

At one time Bud experimented with blowing air through the boiling wort for increased break or some such benefit, I never found out if it had positive results.

You can see by the size of Buds fermenters that they are under a good bit of built in static pressure. With that pressure they are going to package in under 28 days.

I kinda skimmed through and watched but didn’t get any info out of their mash schedule.. did I miss something?

 

[Red over White]

I kinda skimmed through and watched but didn’t get any info out of their mash schedule.. did I miss something?

I remember them stating they doughed in at 113 and only a couple other little things throughout, like I said they don't give up much. Doughing in low in with an adjunct beer eliminates dough balls and gives limit dextrinase time to work as you heat to gelatinization temp for your first rest. It really works well and I recommend it if you can heat your mash.