Cooling Wort Using Frozen Bottles

[BrewingWisdom]

Hi
I've read somewhere that frozen bottles can also be used for cooling off the wort before pitching in the yeast. I don't have a wort chiller and cooling it off in the sink takes longer and it's inconvenient for me. So this time for the upcoming batch I want to use frozen bottles for cooling off my wort.
I have a few questions though.
1) Can we use PET plastic bottles with frozen ice inside? I.e Soda or soft drink bottles.
2)Is there a danger of a PET plastic bottle getting melted in a hot wort and hence I end up destroying the whole batch?

 

[Rish]

1) Yes.
2) According to what I've seen, melting point is 260*C, so no, especially when they are full of ice.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

1) Yes.
2) According to what I've seen, melting point is 260*C, so no, especially when they are full of ice.

Personally, have you done it?

 

[IslandLizard]

How big are your batches?

What is the temp of your tap water? If lower than say 30-40C, you can use regular water to bring it down to around 50-60C. Then use ice water for the remainder to get it down to pitching/ferm temps.

If you want to conserve water, recapture and reuse your chilling water. Such as for laundry, watering plants, etc.

For example in Summer our tap water can be around 75-80F (24-27C), too warm to get it down to 65F (18C). So I chill a few gallon jugs with water in the fridge or freezer ahead of time, then use the content of those for the 2nd chilling to bring it down to ferm/pitching temps. I use a plate chiller, so I push the cold water through the chiller with compressed air, or using a pump.

When dropping bottles into your (chilled) wort (under 160F/71C, make sure the outside of those bottles is clean and well sanitized. You don't want infections.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

How big are your batches?

What is the temp of your tap water? If lower than say 30-40C, you can use regular water to bring it down to around 50-60C. Then use ice water for the remainder to get it down to pitching/ferm temps.

If you want to conserve water, recapture and reuse your chilling water. Such as for laundry, watering plants, etc.

For example in Summer our tap water can be around 75-80F (24-27C), too warm to get it down to 65F (18C). So I chill a few gallon jugs with water in the fridge or freezer ahead of time, then use the content of those for the 2nd chilling to bring it down to ferm/pitching temps. I use a plate chiller, so I push the cold water through the chiller with compressed air, or using a pump.

When dropping bottles into your (chilled) wort (under 160F/71C, make sure the outside of those bottles is clean and well sanitized. You don't want infections.

Well I have a ample amount of water available. No shortage of any sort. Tap water here is cold these days. But not directly putting frozen bottles insides and adopting that two step wort cooling approach takes longer. As J Palmer said in his book the wort should be cooled down to pitching temperature in maximum 30 -45 minutes. If longer then we risk bacterial contamination of the wort. So I think I should directly put in the frozen bottles. Because as @Rish said the melting point of plastic PET bottles is 260 C so melting isn't a issue.

 

[Rish]

Personally, have you done it?

Yep.

 

[mac_1103]

As J Palmer said in his book the wort should be cooled down to pitching temperature in maximum 30 -45 minutes. It longer then we risk bacterial contamination of the wort.

It always takes me a couple of hours to get my wort down to pitching temp and I've never had an infection. Lots of the regulars here say they just let their wort chill overnight without issue.

If I was going to do the ice in PET bottles thing, I would boil the water before freezing it. That way if a bottle leaks it won't contaminate your wort. And like Island Lizard said, make sure you sanitize the outside of the bottles.

 

[bracconiere]

couple of these is what i'd use..

https://www.daraz.pk/products/2-c11...0e.searchlist.list.69.a9952cfb4X82JA&search=1

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Lots of the regulars here say they just let their wort chill overnight without issue.

Yeah I've heard that Aussies let their wort cool down overnight in the open and at morning they pitch the yeast.
Actually lambic brewing takes couple of days to take effect from the wild yeast in the open. So most brewers like J Palmer are just over cautious I think.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

couple of these is what i'd use..

https://www.daraz.pk/products/2-c11...0e.searchlist.list.69.a9952cfb4X82JA&search=1

No but why I would I need them when I am not going to use a wort chiller?
Frozen bottles is all I am going to use for the next batch.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah I've heard that Aussies let their wort cool down overnight in the open and at morning they pitch the yeast.

I think most non-Aussies keep it tightly covered.

 

[Dave77]

Well I have a ample amount of water available. No shortage of any sort. Tap water here is cold these days. But not directly putting frozen bottles insides and adopting that two step wort cooling approach takes longer. As J Palmer said in his book the wort should be cooled down to pitching temperature in maximum 30 -45 minutes. If longer then we risk bacterial contamination of the wort. So I think I should directly put in the frozen bottles. Because as @Rish said the melting point of plastic PET bottles is 260 C so melting isn't a issue.

Wouldn't the bottles with ice in them float though? Not sure how effective that would be in cooling. Also, although the bottles may not melt, I do believe the plastic may leach chemicals if heated (I remember reading somewhere not to drink from a waterbottle that's been in a hot car for instance). Anyway, I don't have a definitive answer for you, but just my two cents.

 

[jerrylotto]

I have an oversized pot large enough that my brew kettle fits inside. A garbage can would work in a pinch. After the boil and adding any FO/whirlpool hops, I half fill the big pot and dump a bunch of ice into it in the back yard. Then I float the covered brew kettle inside of the big pot. When the ice is all melted and the jacket water has heated up to room temperature, I can pull out the brew pot and fill the large one with cold water again. That usually gets the wort down to 80 degrees F or so. A Bluetooth thermometer keeps track of that for me. I then filter everything though a sanitized 400 mesh bag fitted inside of a plastic bucket into my conical and continue to chill it in my fermentation chamber to pitching temperature before pitching any yeast. That whole process usually takes about an hour. I don't like the idea of putting anything into contact with the wort except yeast once it has been cooled.

 

[JaxBrewerSahti]

I get my wort to 100, but it in the cooler bag and throw in a couple of frozen 2 liter coke bottles full of h2o

 

[Dancy]

This?
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/sa...us-64-oz-rapid-cooling-paddle/712RCU64V2.html

 

[JaxBrewerSahti]

Nope.. fermentation bag so I can keep my fermentation temperatures stable. But it also is a cooler that gets wort cold
North Mountain Supply Fermentation Cooler Bag - Fits All Fermentor & Carboy Sizes Up to 8 Gallons


I seen people do the no chill method and pitch the yeast the next day

 

[BrewingWisdom]

This?
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/sa...us-64-oz-rapid-cooling-paddle/712RCU64V2.html

That's a really nice product.
I've talked to them but unfortunately they do not ship to my country.

 

[hotbeer]

If you are thinking that might be the way to go then just try it. Sanitize some empty beverage bottles, fill them with water... leaving room for the expanding ice and then see how well they seem to work.

I'm thinking that the won't be effective except for initially until the outer layer of ice is turned to water. Then that water inside the bottle will insulates the ice from your hot wort. And that will drastically slow the rate of cooling your wort. But that is at the moment just a hypothesis. And pretty much I'd expect the same for the soup cooler.

Another issue might be that to get enough bottles in there to cool quickly might be more volume than your kettle can contain.

But if you try it let use know. I've pondered this question too but instead took some copper tubing I had and made my own chiller.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

If you are thinking that might be the way to go then just try it. Sanitize some empty beverage bottles, fill them with water... leaving room for the expanding ice and then see how well they seem to work.

I'm thinking that the won't be effective except for initially until the outer layer of ice is turned to water. Then that water inside the bottle will insulates the ice from your hot wort. And that will drastically slow the rate of cooling your wort. But that is at the moment just a hypothesis. And pretty much I'd expect the same for the soup cooler.

Another issue might be that to get enough bottles in there to cool quickly might be more volume than your kettle can contain.

But if you try it let use know. I've pondered this question too but instead took some copper tubing I had and made my own chiller.

I will let you know.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you have plenty of ice or can make it cheaply, I would use a container large enough to hold your kettle and have some space left surrounding it to fill that with (cold) water and refresh a few times, followed by ice.
Stir that wort gently (to avoid hot side aeration/oxidation) but repeatedly because the heat exchange is through the kettle wall.

Or look into building or buying a chiller.

Again, water can draw much of the initial heat off. To drop the last 40 some degrees that's where ice becomes essential.

 

[JaxBrewerSahti]

If you want to go old school put your kettle in a bucket of ice and run water on the sides

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you have plenty of ice or can make it cheaply, I would use a container large enough to hold your kettle and have some space left surrounding it to fill that with (cold) water and refresh a few times, followed by ice.

I have been mentioning a similar technique (that I use) over the last couple of years to chill my small (including 2.5 gal) batches. My tap water has a seasonal variation (45F to 65F). Some tips:

• monitor water and wort temperature. When the wort is about 40F degrees above the water temperature, replace the water with cool water.
• When the wort gets to about 100F, I will consider using chilled water (40F) rather than warmer season tap water (55F to 65F).
• ice in the sink helps keep the water cool; use it later in the process. With bottled ice, the sides of the bottle insulate the ice (inside the bottle) from the water in the sink.
• stirring the water occasionally (maybe every five minutes) seems to help
• If one is concerned about oxygen ingress, please go build / buy a chiller. FWIW, with small batches, I store my bottles in the fridge (roughly doubles the shelf life). Is there more to the wort stirring story?

There are a number of people here who use their temperature controlled fermentation environment to help with the final cool down.

1. cool the wort to about 75F (roughly 10F above fermentation temperature)
2. let the wort trub settle (maybe a couple of hours)
3. transfer the clear wort to a fermenter
4. move the fermenter to a temperature controlled environment
5. pitch the yeast

eta: There may also be a homebrew-level 'commercial calibration' with regard to staling of beer. Pick a national craft brand that includes packaging dates on it. Calculate it's 'bottled on' date. If the beer was bottled six months ago, do you leave it on the shelf? What about 4 months? 3 months? 2 months? or is it tap room only?

 

[bike2brew]

I use a simple wort chiller with recirculating ice water in the cooler. Not a terribly expensive set up but effective with combination of ice and frozen cold packs. I also use cold-chill water to top off to reach my starting gravity.

 

[odie]

why not just make a smaller batch but higher OG. then dump clean ice into the kettle?

 

[BrewingWisdom]

why not just make a smaller batch but higher OG. then dump clean ice into the kettle?

Exactly I too was going to say this after reading @bike2brew post above.
There are many ways to skin the cat here.
And I think this method is far more convenient and less expensive than any other method.
@IslandLizard chime in please.

 

[mac_1103]

Define "clean ice." I boil my top off water the night before and chill it to near-freezing. I can make sterile ice easily enough, but I haven't figured out how to get it out of the bottle.

 

[IslandLizard]

why not just make a smaller batch but higher OG. then dump clean ice into the kettle?

Exactly I too was going to say this after reading @bike2brew post above.

Topping up with ice or ice cold water works fine for extract brewing or partial mash, they usually don't need a full volume boil, anyway.

Now when all-grain brewing, brewhouse efficiency depends on a full volume boil, after mashing, lautering, then sparging. After boiling off 10-20% you end up with your intended batch volume and gravity. There's not much leeway for top-up.

Now you could boil longer, thus evaporating more, but that takes more energy and also extra time.

A chiller or a way to chill is still the best solution.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Define "clean ice." I boil my top off water the night before and chill it to near-freezing. I can make sterile ice easily enough, but I haven't figured out how to get it out of the bottle.

Thats no brainer. Here in Pakistan we use open small vessels to freeze ice in simmers. Just dump in the whole vessel inside the hot wort and later remove that vessel. But the ice and that vessel should be sterilized from inside out.

 

[IslandLizard]

I can make sterile ice easily enough, but I haven't figured out how to get it out of the bottle.

Freeze in plastic tubs, such as cottage cheese containers, having a wide opening and conical shape.

 

[mac_1103]

I use a simple wort chiller with recirculating ice water in the cooler. Not a terribly expensive set up but effective with combination of ice and frozen cold packs. I also use cold-chill water to top off to reach my starting gravity.

Where's the pump?

 

[mac_1103]

Here in Pakistan we use open small vessels to freeze ice in simmers. Just dump in the whole vessel inside the hot wort and later remove that vessel. But the ice and that vessel should be sterilized from inside out.

If the vessel is open then the ice is not sterile. You can't use it to chill the ice to pitching temp and still rely on the hot wort to sterilize it.

Freeze in plastic tubs, such as cottage cheese containers, having a wide opening and conical shape.

Now that I should have thought of.

 

[IslandLizard]

Where's the pump?

See the skinny black cable against the cabinet door behind the cooler?

But recirculating hot water back into a tub with ice/water is counterproductive. It's better to capture it in a bucket to be used for cleanup, or watering the plants later on when it has cooled down.

When the temp difference between in and out becomes small, recirculation can be beneficial.

 

[mac_1103]

See the skinny black cable against the cabinet door behind the cooler?

Ah-ha!

 

[bike2brew]

Where's the pump?

small $9 immersion pump in the cooler. trouble with adding "enough" cool water to top-off is you can miss your gravity and still not cool sufficently. Don't like idea of floating cold bottles, etc. in my wort. Always able to add ice to the bath to keep it cooler. The ice bath circulates through the coil and water does not come in contact with the wort. Yes, I am an extract brewer so partial volume boil works for me.