Cooling down quickly

[Anon111]

So: the gallon of wort has to cool down quickly and since I don't have cooling installation it's done in the tub with streaming cold water.
But, as I was thinking (having plenty of time waiting for 60º to become 21º):
what if I cooled 2 lbs of cutlery down to -20º (in the freezer) and dropped it in the wort? Temperature should drop 15º within a minute and would easily halve the cool down time.
Would the quick temperature drop be bad for the wort?

 

[brandonnys]

You mean, like some spoons and forks? I mean, as long as they are clean and sanitized before you put them in the freezer, it seems like an okay idea. Anything that will drop the temp of your beer without affecting the gravity of the wort or cleanliness of the process should be fine.

 

[kh54s10]

Put the fermenter in a tub a little larger than it is and add water, then put ice in the water after it is cooled part way. I would not put anything directly into the wort. Unless you are doing extract with top up water, then you can add cold water.

 

[Vedexent]

Very cool idea (no pun intended)!

Did you do the physics/math to hit on 2lbs (if so, can you elaborate on your calculaton) - or just guesstimating?

Is that for a 5gal batch? I might want to adapt your idea to 2.5gal.

Clever thinking!

 

[Vedexent]

... I would not put anything directly into the wort ...

I'm not disagreeing - just wondering what your reasoning here is.

Don't people put sanitized stainless steel wort chillers into their batch?

I'm not sure how this would be different; sanitized stainless steel vs. sanitized stainless steel.

I'd want to put them in a mesh bag to pull them back out, of course.

 

[kh54s10]

People put stainless steel immersion chillers into the wort while it is still boiling to sanitize it. If you put one in already cooled wort you have a high risk of infection.

 

[brandonnys]

I'm not disagreeing - just wondering what your reasoning here is.

I'm curious to know why as well. I dip sanitized stainless in my vessels literally ALL the time. This would be no different. A bit unorthodox, but not different.

I was curious about the arrival at 2lb as well. I'm guessing there is a calculation using the thermal mass of stainless, but I don't know how surface area would affect that (if at all). I also don't know if 2lb of solid stainless is the same as 2lb of assorted stainless spoons and forks in terms of thermal mass and cooling capacity.

I mean, if the vessel will allow it, you can use any amount of clean, sanitized stainless and simply remove them once you hit target temp.

 

[brandonnys]

People put stainless steel immersion chillers into the wort while it is still boiling to sanitize it. If you put one in already cooled wort you have a high risk of infection.

The wort won't become "infected" if you drop in a clean, sanitized cooler. If there's any doubt, clean the chiller, boil to sanitize it, start the water flow to get it down to a reasonable temp (so as to not shock the yeast), and then drop it in the fermenting wort.

All that is sort of beside the point anyway. The OP wanted to know if putting some frozen cutlery into the wort would affect it. My opinion is that it shouldn't, so long as you're careful. RDWHAHB.

 

[kh54s10]

The wort won't become "infected" if you drop in a clean, sanitized cooler. If there's any doubt, clean the chiller, boil to sanitize it, start the water flow to get it down to a reasonable temp (so as to not shock the yeast), and then drop it in the fermenting wort.

All that is sort of beside the point anyway. The OP wanted to know if putting some frozen cutlery into the wort would affect it. My opinion is that it shouldn't, so long as you're careful. RDWHAHB.

Well I disagree. Even sanitized, it would not be worth the risk to me.

The other reason is that 2 pounds of frozen cutlery will probably not take the temperature of the wort down significantly.

Cool from the outside of the fermenter.

 

[NSMikeD]

fast cooling of wort is beneficial in that it helps pull the unwanted proteins and other stuff out of solution so they settle to the bottom of the kettle and limits the time that your late additions hops (aroma and flavoring) are exposed to hit wort.

fwiw, you can make a wort chiller for under $20 using copper refrigerator coil, some hose, clamps and a faucet adaptor. I made mine in under 20 minutes. The hardest part of the project was being careful not to crimp the coil while bending it.

 

[SlitheryDee]

I suppose you could put anything in the wort that can and has been sanitized. I think I would feel better about something like a sanitized jug of frozen water in terms of effectiveness though.

 

[NSMikeD]

Well I disagree. Even sanitized, it would not be worth the risk to me.

The other reason is that 2 pounds of frozen cutlery will probably not take the temperature of the wort down significantly.

Cool from the outside of the fermenter.

if it's sanitized, I am curious what you think would be the risk?

Also, are you guessing that 2lbs frozen cutlery won't cool down the wort by 15°C (the OPs estimate) or have you done the math?

 

[Vedexent]

People put stainless steel immersion chillers into the wort while it is still boiling to sanitize it. If you put one in already cooled wort you have a high risk of infection.

I agree with this part 100%

The cutlery would have to be sanitized first, or it's a no-go.

I think it could be done, however: rubber gloves, tub of sanitizer solution, large freezer sack - rinse the outsides of the gloves, inside of the sack, rinse the cutlery, drop it in the sack, squeeze the air out, place in freezer.

Later, dump cutlery in wort. Or sanitize the outside of the bag, drop into the hot/boiling wort, slice open the bag.

Not 0% risk, even so - but probably acceptable to most people.

As for - "would it work?" - I'll reserve judgement until I can see some physics/math, but it seems like it should, given enough mass of cold SS.

Question is how much volume would "enough" SS take up? And that would be highly dependent on batch size.

This is probably not practical for 10gal. It might work for 2.5gal - again, I'd want to see math.

 

[kh54s10]

if it's sanitized, I am curious what you think would be the risk?

Also, are you guessing that 2lbs frozen cutlery won't cool down the wort by 15°C (the OPs estimate) or have you done the math?

I worry that knives and forks are clean enough to be sanitized thoroughly enough. IMO it is not worth the risk. After stopping the boil I avoid as much as possible putting anything that I don't have to into the wort. YMMV

I am guessing, but take for instance putting an ice cube into a cup of hot coffee.

Just tried it. It took 145 degree water to 125. I would expect that 2 pounds of cutlery would have about the same unsatisfactory result.

 

[Murphys_Law]

In my opinion, the thermal mass from a bunch of spoons, for example, isn't sufficient to have any impact on cooling vs the thermal mass of water (which is a lot). You'll have hot spoons before you have cool wort.

 

[shoengine]

If this happened at my house:

"Hey, where'd all the forks go?"
"I'm using them."
"All of them??"
"Yeah."
"Why the heck are you using all the forks?"
"I'm freezing them."
"Why are you freezing the forks?"
"Uh, it's for heat exchange with my wort."
"What am I supposed to eat with, chopsticks?"

 

[TallDan]

So, some quick half-ass calculations:

2lb of silverware at 0F
+
8.5lb of wort at 212F
=
10.5lb of silverware/wort mixture at 171F

There's probably a bit more to it than that, but for a "cocktail napkin" calculation, that's close enough.

In other words, it's not practical to get enough material cold enough to make this chilling method effective.

(Side note: Ice is more effective since there is energy involved in the phase change between liquid and solid.)

 

[Vedexent]

Never mind - digging into this more, it turns out that the heat capacity of stainless steel is something like 1/8 of the heat capacity of water - so it looks like tallDan's calculation (which seem to assume they have the same heat capacity) are conservative; it would probably not cool as much as even that calculation.

Not looking good for this as a cooling method - sanitation issues aside.

 

[bajaedition]

I just want to know what the name of the beer would be?

would we rate it 2 forks up?

would the hops taste cut through?

do we pour it or spoon it out?

Will it have an edge?

If we chilled some dinnerware could we dish it out?

 

[Murphys_Law]

I just want to know what the name of the beer would be?

would we rate it 2 forks up?

would the hops taste cut through?

do we pour it or spoon it out?

Will it have an edge?

If we chilled some dinnerware could we dish it out?

I think, based on the OP's last post, that the idea is dead...we can stick a fork in it!

 

[NSMikeD]

I think, based on the OP's last post, that the idea is dead...we can stick a fork in it!

The OP hasn't been back to this thread, but I'l still give you a groan acknowledging the pun.

 

[Anon111]

Never mind - digging into this more, it turns out that the heat capacity of stainless steel is something like 1/8 of the heat capacity of water - so it looks like tallDan's calculation (which seem to assume they have the same heat capacity) are conservative; it would probably not cool as much as even that calculation.

Not looking good for this as a cooling method - sanitation issues aside.

Thank you, I assumed a better heat capacity so the estimates were based likewise. It was about a 1 gallon batch btw.
The cooling problem will have to be tackled in another way then, since ice is also a bit of a problem (VERY small freezer). Waterproof pump then, and the bathtub again.

Thank you all for your valuable input! Lessons have been learnt, changes will be made!

 

[shoengine]

I just buy three bags of ice for $4 and immerse the kettle in it. Works really well for me, and these are three gallon batches.

 

[curtisbrewer]

beer smith might have advice on frozen cutlery check google for a link brother !!!

 

[AnbyG]

I just put some solid blocks of ice in the fermentation bucket and pour the wort over it. The water is in tupperware containers, and microwaved to a boil to sterilize it goes inside the freezer. Cools down in 10 minutes max to pitching temperature.

 

[RM-MN]

Fast cooling is overrated. Some of us let the wort cool in the air at room temp until nearly at or at pitching temp. The only downside I've seen is that any late addition hops continue to isomerize and add bittering until the wort cools so that has to be planned into the recipe. You do need to take some easy steps to make sure the wort doesn't get infected.

 

[Anon111]

Fast cooling is overrated. Some of us let the wort cool in the air at room temp until nearly at or at pitching temp. The only downside I've seen is that any late addition hops continue to isomerize and add bittering until the wort cools so that has to be planned into the recipe. You do need to take some easy steps to make sure the wort doesn't get infected.

My best (as in 'best of the worst') cooling is: put a lid on it and outside it goes.
An hour later it will be cold enough to continue. Flame out hopping is different yes. I usually delay that half an hour.

 

[Larkin989]

Should work assuming the cutlery is sanitized, the issue I see is having to fish the silverware from your wort. If you can figure out an efficient way to do that without contamination have at it!

Good luck! :rockin: