Cool Fermentation Question

[Thumbs71]

This is probably a super n00b weird question, but I wasn't really able to find an answer...

My fermenting room sits right around 50 degrees. I use a heated water bath for my ales. Obvioulsy this is good for a lager fermentation, but that isn't always an option. My fridge only has room to lager/ cold condition 1 corny at a time.

Do you have any suggestions for a recipe/ yeast strain that these conditions would be good for?

 

[ehedge20]

How warm does the wort get in the water bath? Just because the water is one temp, does not mean the wort is equal.

Do you want a yeast for ale? If so you need to understand that the ale yeast needs the proper temp and pitching rate in order to stay active enough to finish the job as fast as possible in order to prevent off flavors and under attenuation. This is done in the Min. 65 deg to 75 at Max. depending on style and brewer.

I would suggest an enclosure (fire rated) with a space heater and a temp controller with a probe to stick in a thermowell of a fermentor.

Hope that helps. You can look here for an example of yeast and recommended fermentation requirements:
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html#ALE_YEAST

 

[Thumbs71]

How warm does the wort get in the water bath? Just because the water is one temp, does not mean the wort is equal.

Do you want a yeast for ale? If so you need to understand that the ale yeast needs the proper temp and pitching rate in order to stay active enough to finish the job as fast as possible in order to prevent off flavors and under attenuation. This is done in the Min. 65 deg to 75 at Max. depending on style and brewer.

I would suggest an enclosure (fire rated) with a space heater and a temp controller with a probe to stick in a thermowell of a fermentor.

Hope that helps. You can look here for an example of yeast and recommended fermentation requirements:
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html#ALE_YEAST

Thanks for the reply.

The water bath sits at about 65 to 67.

Since I don't have the capacity to lager any more than 1 keg at a time I would be looking for a yeast that can ferment around 50 without having to be lagered.

I've looked both the White Labs and Wyeast strain sheets and didn't see any ale yeast's that fermented that low.

Is there a "lagerish" yeast that can ferment at a lower temp but doesn't need to be cold conditioned.

Sorry for the noob question.

 

[Delaney]

Wyeast Kolsch 2565 can be fermented at lower temps for more of a lager like profile, or higher temps for more of a common beer profile. I don't think it would be necessary to lager with this yeast, although a lengthy secondary is recommended because the yeast remain in suspension. If I were you, I would just ferment primary and secondary in the 50F room....

Or you could just bottle without secondary and cold crash the bottles after they're carbonated, which should result in a fairly clear beer with a gentle pour.


If the ambient temp in your room is 50F, the beer should ferment at about 55F...which is perfect for this strain if you're going for a lager. I used a starter and the fermentation went crazy within 6 hours of pitching even at those cold temps.

 

[badbrew]

Wy 1007 likes mid 50's. It is an ale.

 

[Thumbs71]

Thanks for all of the replies. I didn't really take into account that the temperature inside of the fermentor would be higher than the ambient temperature of the room. I guess I could always wrap a towel or blanket around the fermentor if it's a few degrees to cold.

 

[Delaney]

I would personally just put a jar of water in the room with a thermometer and wait a day to see what temperature it gets to...then you'll know.

 

[Thumbs71]

That's what I'm currently doing. I use a dual probe digital thermometer to monitor both the water bath temp and the "ambinet liquid temperature", for lack of a better phrase. It stay's at a steady 50 degrees.

 

[Delaney]

Something is not adding up man....

You said your ambient room temps are at 50F?
You said your water bath temps are at 65-67F?

If those are both true, then in my experience you're submerged wort should be close to 65F...When you take into account that the wort will raise a few degrees in temperature during fermentation, you'll likely be between 65F-70F at your fermentation temperature.

If you are trying to lager, and your ambient room temp is 50F, you shouldn't use a water bath...If your jar of water reads 50F, that's perfect! your lager will ferment around 55F where it is happy. Just make sure you use a starter, if I pitch with 100billion cells at that temperature I have a week of lag before fermentation. With a starter my lag time has been as little as 5 hours at this temperature.

 

[Thumbs71]

I use a water bath with heater for ales. I won't use the water bath for lagers. I just wanted to see if there's a yeast that ferments at a lower temp, like the WYeast 1007, so I didn't have to use the water bath.

Sorry about the confusion. I'm new to brewing and I'm just seeing what other options I have.

 

[Rbeckett]

An STC-1000 with a reptile ceramic heater rock and the cooling coils from a working fridge work just fine for me. I am in Florida where we deal with too high a temp but the issues remain essentially the same. That is getting the temp to a certain range and maintaining it closely enough to prevent off flavors and other issues. If you can go to an appliance store and ask them for an old trade in fridge you can get em cheap and convert them for about 50-50 bucks. If you have to toss a batch or two then you have already paid for the fridge and temp controller. Just my >02 and I am as big or bigger a noob than you are. I used to design and fabricate solutions in the industrial world so I tend to think outside the box and manage to get things done quite nicely on a tight budget. Hope this helps.
Crippled Bob

 

[scoundrel]

I think the word "lager" can confuse people at times. You can lager an ale. Lagering is conditioning a beer at lower temperatures. Lager yeast just requires that you ferment at a lower range and it sounds like your basement is perfectly suited for fermenting at lager yeast temps. Couldn't you just fully ferment several beers with lager yeast, store them at 50 in cornys, with enough CO2 to maintain a good seal then when your fridge opens up, put a new keg in for conditioning?

This is just my opinion but the minute you start putting money into an elaborate heating setup to bring your basement to ale fermentation temps, you should invest in an old fridge to cold condition beers you fermented with lager yeast.

 

[Thumbs71]

Couldn't you just fully ferment several beers with lager yeast, store them at 50 in cornys, with enough CO2 to maintain a good seal then when your fridge opens up, put a new keg in for conditioning?

I was actually wondering if it was ok to do that. I guess the only issue would be the time it takes to lager. It could be a few months for an Oktoberfest, right?

This is just my opinion but the minute you start putting money into an elaborate heating setup to bring your basement to ale fermentation temps, you should invest in an old fridge to cold condition beers you fermented with lager yeast.

I agree. That's why I've been using the cheap water bath with aquarium heater.

I really appreciate all of the replies and sugestions. Like anything else, the more informed you are the better your results *should* be.

 

[scoundrel]

I was actually wondering if it was ok to do that. I guess the only issue would be the time it takes to lager. It could be a few months for an Oktoberfest, right?

Yes it would be longer but even at 50 you're kinda lagering since the yeast will finish up and will drop out to some degree before you put it in the fridge. If you have a long pipeline of kegged beers waiting, by the time they get their turn in the fridge, they should already have a few weeks of age and will drop out fairly quickly once you cold condition.

Like anything else, the more informed you are the better your results *should* be.

You got it and for the record, I wish my basement was a constant 50 degrees. I'd love to brew lager styles without a fridge.

 

[Thumbs71]

Perfect. Thank you for all of the input.

I hate to go off topic, but do you see an issue with serving out of the keg that I lager in?

 

[crackhead7]

Usually you'll want to transfer out of the lagering keg if you plan to keep it around for a long time to get it off all the yeast that settled out during lagering. depending on how clean your transfer was to the lagering vessel you might get some yeast in the first pint or two if you server from the lagering keg. So I guess that it depends on what you plan on doing.

EDIT: P.S. On the originial topic, you could just ferment ales in your kitchen to annoy SWMBO like I do!

 

[scoundrel]

So I guess that it depends on what you plan on doing.

crackhead7 is right here. It really does just depend on how you operate. Here's what I do. I'm not saying its the best way, just my way.

All of my beer get a minimum of three weeks in primary. I only go to secondary when I add fruits and such. By the time I keg, the majority of the yeast and other matter have dropped and packed nicely at the bottom. I put 5.5 into the fermenter, so when I rack to kegs I only transfer clear beer and leave 1/2 gallon behind. Once I cold crash, carb and serve, I may get a very small glass of settled yeast (2-4 oz) but once you're beyond that, the beer is crystal clear.

 

[Thumbs71]

I have a Irish Red that's been in the secondary for 5 weeks and a Kolsch that's been in the primary for just over 5 weeks. I'm getting 3 new kegs on Friday, thank you KegConnection.com.

I'll think I'll transfer my Irish Red first. I'll probably carb at 50 degrees and about 15 psi for a week or 2.

While that's carbing I'll take the Kolsch out of the water bath and let it rest at 50 degrees while the Red is carbing.

Does that sound about right?

EDIT: P.S. On the originial topic, you could just ferment ales in your kitchen to annoy SWMBO like I do!

Luckily she wouldn't care at all, but we only keep our house at about 63 during the winter. She's a craft-brew-aholic just like me, except we're complete opposites; she's a super IBU hophead and I'm all about thick, dark, and malty.

 

[crackhead7]

I have a Irish Red that's been in the secondary for 5 weeks and a Kolsch that's been in the primary for just over 5 weeks. I'm getting 3 new kegs on Friday, thank you KegConnection.com.

I'll think I'll transfer my Irish Red first. I'll probably carb at 50 degrees and about 15 psi for a week or 2.

While that's carbing I'll take the Kolsch out of the water bath and let it rest at 50 degrees while the Red is carbing.

Does that sound about right?



Luckily she wouldn't care at all, but we only keep our house at about 63 during the winter. She's a craft-brew-aholic just like me, except we're complete opposites; she's a super IBU hophead and I'm all about thick, dark, and malty.

63 is a good temp for nottingham yeast! that reminds me of how we were when we first moved into our house. However, the SWMBO has some circulation problems and we have had to bump the temps up a little.

 

[scoundrel]

I have a Irish Red that's been in the secondary for 5 weeks and a Kolsch that's been in the primary for just over 5 weeks. I'm getting 3 new kegs on Friday, thank you KegConnection.com.

I'll think I'll transfer my Irish Red first. I'll probably carb at 50 degrees and about 15 psi for a week or 2.

While that's carbing I'll take the Kolsch out of the water bath and let it rest at 50 degrees while the Red is carbing.

Does that sound about right?

At 5 weeks you can go straight to keg on both. Moving the Kolsch to secondary (IMO) is unnecessary and every extra transfer is a contamination/oxidation risk. If you're just removing the Kolsch from the bath, you might as well just keg it. The yeast won't compact much more and you can get it off the yeast.

Then split the CO2 line with a T splitter so you can carb them both at the same time. 15psi is good and at 50 degrees and you can go as high as 18psi for around 2.5 volumes.

 

[Thumbs71]

At 5 weeks you can go straight to keg on both. Moving the Kolsch to secondary (IMO) is unnecessary and every extra transfer is a contamination/oxidation risk.

Yeah, the Irish Red was my first brew, which is why I moved it. I followed the directions step by step, but I've since read a ton on leaving it in the primary and skipping the secondary.

If you're just removing the Kolsch from the bath, you might as well just keg it. The yeast won't compact much more and you can get it off the yeast.

Then split the CO2 line with a T splitter so you can carb them both at the same time. 15psi is good and at 50 degrees and you can go as high as 18psi for around 2.5 volumes.

My thoughts were just that, let the yeast compact more at a lower temperature, but I think I'll skip that and go right to the keg. If I can't get a splitter and extra disconnect, should I just transfer the Kolsch to the keg and pressureize until I can carb it?

 

[crackhead7]

yes setting the seal with like 30 PSI would be fine

 

[scoundrel]

My thoughts were just that, let the yeast compact more at a lower temperature, but I think I'll skip that and go right to the keg. If I can't get a splitter and extra disconnect, should I just transfer the Kolsch to the keg and pressureize until I can carb it?

Yes but hit it with gas every day or two until the keg is equalized (about a week) since the beer will absorb the CO2 and the keg pressure will drop.

 

[Thumbs71]

Thanks for all of the great info guys! I can't wait until I get these kegs so I can fill them and finally see how my brew turned out.

 

[Thumbs71]

I finally got my Irish Red Ale and Cologne Kolsch kegged on 2/29/2012.

The Red, 10 days in primary and 6 weeks in secondary, clearned very well and tasted much better then it did going into the secondary.

The Kolsch, after being in the primary for over 5 weeks, had a very compacted yeast cake, but it was pretty cloudy and tasted yeasty going into the keg. Otherwise it tasted good. Hopefully it turns out ok.

Since I only had 1 disconnect, I have 15 psi on my Irish Red and I've been hitting the Kolsch with 30 psi every 8 - 12 hours. Both kegs are in a 50 degree room.

3 quick questions:
1. About how long should it take the Irish Red to carbonate?
2. Will the Kolsch actually carbonate with me hitting it with 30 psi, or do I need to use continuous pressure, like the Red?
3. I won't be able to server both of these right away, so when they finished carbonating and I remove the pressure, will they continue stay carbonated?

Again, thank you for all of the replies.

 

[scoundrel]

3 quick questions:
1. About how long should it take the Irish Red to carbonate?
2. Will the Kolsch actually carbonate with me hitting it with 30 psi, or do I need to use continuous pressure, like the Red?
3. I won't be able to server both of these right away, so when they finished carbonating and I remove the pressure, will they continue stay carbonated?

Again, thank you for all of the replies.

First off, the pressure is relative to temperature. So for example, a beer carbonated at 30psi room temperature will drop in pressure to around 12-14 psi once you refrigerate in the mid 30's. So I would bump Red ale from 15 to 30psi or it will be undercarbonated once chilled.

Now for your questions:

1. At room temp and 30 psi, between 1-2 weeks. Since your room is around 50 it will be closer to 1 week.
2. It will take longer if you hit it once a day but it will eventually equalize (basically when the beer can't absorb anymore CO2). If you make a pressure guage, you will see that eventually it will maintain 30 psi. Here's how you make one. http://www.brewgeeks.com/diy-pressure-guage.html
3. Yes, once they equalize. You have the perfect environment to cellar beer this way. They will last for years.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have more questions!

 

[Thumbs71]

First off, the pressure is relative to temperature. So for example, a beer carbonated at 30psi room temperature will drop in pressure to around 12-14 psi once you refrigerate in the mid 30's. So I would bump Red ale from 15 to 30psi or it will be undercarbonated once chilled.

Now I'm a little confused. According to the Force Carbonation Table on Kegerators.com (http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php), to get 2.3 volumes of CO2 at 50 degrees you need to apply 15 psi. But you're saying that once it's refrigerated it'll be undercarbed?

 

[scoundrel]

It really is a personal preference thing. I like my beer around 2.6 volumes which says 18 on the chart at 50 degrees. Another thing to keep in mind is air temperature is different than liquid temperature. I keep my fridge at 34 and was shocked to find that the beer temp was actually around 40! It makes sense though since air temps fluctuate at a higher rate then liquid. I keep my fridge regulator set around 12psi and that seems to be perfect. Also 30psi works best for me and my room temp is 65.

You will have to experiment a bit. Ignore my previous advice for now, keep it at 15 and see how it works out. If it is under carbed then it won't take but a day or two to get it right and bump the pressure at 50 in the future.

 

[Thumbs71]

It really is a personal preference thing. I like my beer around 2.6 volumes which says 18 on the chart at 50 degrees. Another thing to keep in mind is air temperature is different than liquid temperature. I keep my fridge at 34 and was shocked to find that the beer temp was actually around 40! It makes sense though since air temps fluctuate at a higher rate then liquid. I keep my fridge regulator set around 12psi and that seems to be perfect. Also 30psi works best for me and my room temp is 65.

You will have to experiment a bit. Ignore my previous advice for now, keep it at 15 and see how it works out. If it is under carbed then it won't take but a day or two to get it right and bump the pressure at 50 in the future.

Cool. Thanks for all of the help.

Also, nice website. I really like the BrewList.xls for tracking.

 

[scoundrel]

Cool. Thanks for all of the help.

Also, nice website. I really like the BrewList.xls for tracking.

Anytime buddy and feel free to copy the log for yourself if you use Google docs.