Cool Ferment Timing?

[gopherhockey]

I recently brewed up a Kolsch beer and was instructed that the best temp for fermenting was between 55-65. My question is, when does one actually start the cooler fermentation?

I think I may have messed things up because I put it immediately into cooler temps (around 60) then noticed I never did get crazy active fermentation like my last 2 beers. Should I have started out at a warmer temp then put it in my cooler once it became active?

Is my beer ruined?

 

[boo boo]

Depends on the yeast you are using. Cooler temps will delay the fermentation a bit but it should kick in soon enough. I brewed one 2 weeks ago ( in secondary now) and pitched at 65f and left in my basement (60f). Took almost 2 days to start to go cracked but finished out within 1 week from an OG of 1043 to 1005. I did use nottingham dry yeast for this ale. No your beer isn't ruined.

 

[cgravier]

they reccomend you pitch at a warmer temp and when you see signs of fermentation then move it to colder, (even lager yeast that ferment down to 45 degrees are recomended pitched at 70)but you should be fine...it might take alittle longer, next time i recomend using a 3-4 liter starter which should give you a good start. i always pitch mine at the same temp or slighty warmer than what its going to ferment at.

 

[boo boo]

they reccomend you pitch at a warmer temp and when you see signs of fermentation then move it to colder, (even lager yeast that ferment down to 45 degrees are recomended pitched at 70)but you should be fine...it might take alittle longer, next time i recomend using a 3-4 liter starter which should give you a good start. i always pitch mine at the same temp or slighty warmer than what its going to ferment at.

Pitching a lager yeast into warmer tempertures than the yeast calls for invites off flavors in lagers.

 

[Lou]

Pitching a lager yeast into warmer tempertures than the yeast calls for invites off flavors in lagers.

not really...fermenting at higher temperatures invites off-flavors... that's why you move to the lower temperature when fermentation becomes appreciable...

 

[boo boo]

If you pitch enough healthy yeast into wort at the recommended temperture of the yeast than you get the flavor profile that the yeast provides. pitching into higher wort tempertures just to kick start the yeast isn't nesessary if the right procedure is followed. The possibility of a fruit off flavor in a lager is considered a fault as a lager should have a clean, almost netural taste. You could get this flavor by starting your brew at a higher temperture.

 

[El Pistolero]

pitching into higher wort tempertures just to kick start the yeast isn't nesessary if the right procedure is followed.

Both the White Labs and the Wyeast web sites disagree with you on this point.

 

[boo boo]

Q. I am curious to the effects fo fermenting lager yeast at room temperatures such as 2112 for steam beer. What about the other lager strains?

A. Lager yeast tend to produce sulpher at cold fermentation temperatures. The amount varies with different strains. This sulpher production is necessary for pilsner style beers. When temperatures are elevated, sulpher production is reduced. To avoid any sulpher production, use fermentation temperatures of 75 F. This will produces fruity ester like ales, just not as good.

Q. To start the fermentation process for the 2308 yeast , do I pitch it into the wort that is 75 degrees or do I pitch it in to the wort at the 48 to 56 degree area ? If I pitch it in to the 75 degree wort when do I transfer it to the cooler temperature ? When the fermentation seems to be complete or during the fermentation ?

A. Lager yeast can be started cooler than ale yeast if it is important to minimize ester formation at the higher propagation temperatures. Typically the yeast can be started in 75 F wort and pitched in 24 hours. Start your 2308 in 65F wort instead of 75 F. Hold for 48 hours until high kerausen, then pitch into wort.

Says here to minimizte esters to pitch lower but it don't say what the actual wort temp should be but it would stand to reason that the same would apply to the wort as the starter.

 

[cgravier]

yeah iwould think that if you pitch a 70 degree starter into a 45 degree wort you could shock the yeast...and i thought that in the initial stage of fermentation the yeast is busy multiplying and scavenging o2 needed, therefore its not producing any flavors untill this first stage is complete...

this is all debatable of course...thats why its so cool.

i read of a brewery that takes its yeast right from the refrigerater, dumps it onto the cold ss bottom of the fermenter, and pumps in 70 degree wort straight on top.
so i guess its hard to shock yeast (ale yeast at least)

 

[boo boo]

Uniform Temperatures are important...
keep at 75° F until fermentation is evident, and then adjust to the desired temperature. Fluctuations from night to day need to be minimized. (this from WY)

If you are adjusting the tempertures after fermentation has started, how can you keep it uniform.

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What temperature should I pitch a lager yeast?

There are two different methods of pitching lagers. Brewers use each method with success, but every brewer has their preference. The easiest method is (A).
A) Start the yeast warm and lower to 50-55F after the start of fermentation. The yeast should be pitched at 70 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit. Once you see active fermentation, bring the temperature of the wort down 10 degrees per 12 hours until the desired fermentation temperature has been achieved. This method works well without forming high amounts of esters because most esters are produced after the first 12 hours.
B) Pitch the yeast at the desired fermentation temperature (48-55 Degrees F). Lager yeast ferment well at this temperature, but they grow very slowly. If you are using this method, understand that you may not see signs of activity for 48-72 hours. If starting the fermentation cold, we recommend you make a 1-2 liter starter per 5 gallons, or if a commercial brewery, a starter 10% of the batch size.

From WL
So if the esters are produced in the first 12 hours and it takes 1 day to get to fermenting temps at 10f per 12 hours and you start at 70f and go to 50f that is 24 hours of esters.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Pitching a lager yeast into warmer tempertures than the yeast calls for invites off flavors in lagers.

That may be, but I always do it that way and the off flavors never accept the invitation, my lagers turn out fine. RDWHHAH.

 

[boo boo]

That may be, but I always do it that way and the off flavors never accept the invitation, my lagers turn out fine. RDWHHAH.

I'm glad they do, as do mine. I have done it both ways and can say I have noticed no off flavors in brews done both ways. Just an opposing view to the norm. Cheers.

 

[Kaiser]

This is indeed an interesting subject where I have read both opinions in the literature.

This is my current view of this:

Lager yeast should be pitched warm if you have a low pitching rate (well below 4ml yeast sediment per liter (~qt) of wort). It's advantage are the accelerated growth of the yeast during the first hours after pitching. The disadvantages are the ester formation (many of them can be reduced with a diacetyl rest though) and possible shifts in the yeasts metabolism (I don't think this is enough to worry about)

Since home brewers notoriously underpitch, most literature recommends pitching warm and lowering the temp once the yeast stopped growing. If this would not be done, it would result in sluggish fermentation which is much worse and ester prone than warm pitching.

Lager yeast should be cold pitched if you have a sufficient pitching rate (4ml/L according to Noonan or a starter of 10% of the batch size). Though the yeast grows slower, this is not an issue since there is already enough yeast available. The advantages are the disadvantages listed for warm pitching.

Many of the German home brewers recommended growing enough yeast and pitching it cold. My Maibock was the first lager that followed this scheme (The Doppelbock was pitched warm onto yeast sediment and cooled immediately). In order to get to the 50F of pitching temp I used a post chiller to chill the already chilled wort even further:

Some coils of copper tubing in an ice-water bath did the trick for me.

I pitched about 80ml of yeast sediment that I grew cold (50F-58F) from a Wyeast smack pack over the course of 6 days. I had low kraeusen after 12hrs and high kraeusen after 48hrs.

I don't know yet, if all this effort will actually make a difference or not. But I like doing whats best for the yeast, and lager yeast likes it cold.

Kai

 

[El Pistolero]

Great post KK!

 

[Kaiser]

Great post KK!

Thanks, EL P,


There is something I'd like to add though. I'm not sure if I was clear on this:

Don't be discouraged from trying to make lagers, by reading this post and thinking that you will be screwed if you cannot pitch the yeast cold. This is not a very important thing for lagers anyway. If you can ferment between 50F and 55F, aerate/oxygenate sufficiently (more than for ales though) and make a good size starter (1 - 2qts) you will be able to make a good lager.

If you however want to improve on these kind of beers you may find it interesting and challenging to try some more complicated fermentation procedures.

Kai

 

[boo boo]

Thanks, EL P,


There is something I'd like to add though. I'm not sure if I was clear on this:

Don't be discouraged from trying to make lagers, by reading this post and thinking that you will be screwed if you cannot pitch the yeast cold. This is not a very important thing for lagers anyway. If you can ferment between 50F and 55F, aerate/oxygenate sufficiently (more than for ales though) and make a good size starter (1 - 2qts) you will be able to make a good lager.

If you however want to improve on these kind of beers you may find it interesting and challenging to try some more complicated fermentation procedures.

Kai[/quote

Exactly