Conversion from all grain to extract

[Dave T]

Is there a simple (or even complicated I guess) method of converting from an all grain recipe to extract? I see a lot of recipes that I would like to try but can only find in all grain or biab, and I’m neither interested (at this time) nor set up for either

Thanks

Dave’s

 

[IslandLizard]

It can be fairly simple, more complicated, and occasionally impossible.

If the AG recipe contains base malt and a few crystals and/or roasted malts, try to find close substitutes for those in extracts, and steep the crystal and roasted malts. There are many more extracts available now than say 10 years ago, even 5 years ago. For example, wheat extracts, Vienna extracts, all Pilsner extracts, etc. Often there's no or little need to buy Sparkling Amber or Dark Extracts as you can make your own from Golden Light extract plus steeping grains, giving you full control on what goes into your beer, rather than relying on a bag or can containing a pre-created wort recipe.

If the recipe contains base malts you cannot find an extract equivalent for, the only way to brew something similar would be by doing a partial mash of those, then add extracts for the balance.

If a recipe uses flaked (raw) grain, or specialty malts that need to be mashed (CaraPils, Carafoam, Victory, Biscuit malt, Melanoidin malt, Brown malt, Amber malt, etc.), you need to add enough base malt to that mixture to perform the mini mash. At the same time reduce the amount of extract to arrive at the same gravity.

That way you may get close to the original recipe, or not quite the same, but with enough of its own charm, that can stand on its own.
Even all grain brewers often cannot replicate a beer from a recipe, even if all ingredients are the same. Process is a large and determining factor.
For example, our brew club does a yearly same grain/same hops recipe competition, and the results are remarkably different, even if the same or similar yeasts were used and aimed for the same style. Now we do go out of our way to create something special, something that stands out from the rest, so there's that.

 

[Dave T]

Thanks. So for example, a recipe calls for 13.5 lb of American 2 row pale malt, I can substitute 10 lb of pale malt extract? Just try to match the major grain input (x75%), and keep the rest as ‘steeping grains’ right?

I’m kinda loose on making beer - just like cooking. Always trying something different, and a recipe is more of a guide. Only thing you need from a recipe is cook time, the rest is a suggestion. Like someone said when I came here a year ago completely clueless (as opposed to just mildly clueless) - it might be bad beer, but it’s still beer.

Thanks

 

[RM-MN]

When you convert an all grain recipe to extract you need to know what efficiency the all grain recipe anticipated so you know how to convert it. Many are written with a 70% efficiency but there is no guarantee that some joker like me wouldn't use one of my recipes where I normally get over 85%. With that said, if you guess 70% you will be close enough.

 

[Dave T]

Ah ok, thought 75%, close. Now the difference between dry and liquid...that’s a bit of a challenge. I Think pound vs pound, dry is 20% more

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

https://www.jaysbrewing.com/2011/11/17/lazy-chart-for-converting-dme-lme-grain/ ?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks. So for example, a recipe calls for 13.5 lb of American 2 row pale malt, I can substitute 10 lb of pale malt extract? Just try to match the major grain input (x75%), and keep the rest as ‘steeping grains’ right?

Do you use a recipe formulator? That's easiest to calculate expected gravities, color, FG, and such.

Use the (predicted) OG of the original recipe as your target when formulating your extract recipe. That way mash efficiency is (mostly) immaterial.
As @RM-MN said, the amount of grain used is not a very useful measure, since it depends on mash efficiency. As well as total brew house efficiency. For example, the originator may leave a gallon of wort behind with his kettle trub. You may not have more than 1/2 gallon of trub using extracts, or even less if bagging hops or using a hop spider and such.

Best recipes are given in percentages, not weight, but it's easy to convert one to the other.

What are those other grains? That was the essence of my first reply.
Some cannot be steeped, and need to be mashed, hence the mini-mash reference (aka partial mash).

 

[agrazela]

How about posting (or linking) a few AG recipes you’d like to convert?

(I’m a concrete example guy)

 

[Dave T]

https://beerandbrewing.com/fremont-brewings-before-dark-star-oatmeal-stout-recipe/

Son lives in Seattle...I live in NY...so I get a lot of good tastes, and I can’t get it here.

Thinking I can use extract for the 2 row, and steep the rest?

 

[GPNewBrew]

I thought Beersmith has a “convert” function that does that for you?

 

[IslandLizard]

https://beerandbrewing.com/fremont-brewings-before-dark-star-oatmeal-stout-recipe/

Son lives in Seattle...I live in NY...so I get a lot of good tastes, and I can’t get it here.

Thinking I can use extract for the 2 row, and steep the rest?

You can use Golden Light extract instead of the 2-row but:
1 lb 2 oz (510 g) oats <== Those are flaked oats* and need to be mashed (together with a diastatic malt) to convert the starches to sugars! They should not be steeped.

Do a mini-mash at 154F for 45-60 minutes with the oats and an equal amount of 2-row.
The crystal, dark malts and the roasted Barley can be steeped.
Use a recipe calculator to determine the amount of extract needed in addition to those to get to the OG of 1.060.

Use Carafa II Special, it's the dehusked version of regular Carafa II. It's smoother, has less astringency.

* Flaked Oats:
You can use regular flaked/rolled "Old Fashioned" or "Quick Oats" or (unflavored) instant oats from the supermarket. Doesn't have to be a fancy brand like Quaker Oats or so. Cheap and cheerful store brand is fine. Do not use steel cut oats (groats).

1 lb 6 oz (623 g) Crystal malt <== It doesn't mention the Lovibond (color). I'd probably use C-40.

 

[IslandLizard]

I thought Beersmith has a “convert” function that does that for you?

It does. Try it and see what happens... I've never had a recipe convert without having to correct and tweak it. It always throws in something weird. Unless he fixed it in v3, it's not all that useful. Best off reformulating it from scratch. Brewer's Friend is free and so are many other online recipe formulators.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I thought Beersmith has a “convert” function that does that for you?

Software to convert recipes isn't magical. It just automates a couple of simple calculations. One still has to know how the conversion process works. And then, perhaps adjust some software settings, perhaps add some malts to the database (and have to track down information on those malts).

So rather than just learning the conversion process and do a couple of simple calculations, one needs to learn the conversion process, learn the software package (in general), understand how it does the conversion process, where to make the customizations, where add the the malts, ...

@IslandLizard continues to offer great advice on how to do these conversions. I'm more of a "did you know that How To Brew, 4e, has three or four pages that cover the topic well". Granted, the forum answer will be tailored to the various posters recipes (which is where forums and @IslandLizard add value).

Note that conversions of munich and wheat malt to DME/LME are a little more complicated as these are blends of munich/wheat and a base malt. How To Brew, 4e, has a nice approach for handling this.

 

[Dave T]

You can use Golden Light extract instead of the 2-row but:
1 lb 2 oz (510 g) oats <== Those are flaked oats* and need to be mashed (together with a diastatic malt) to convert the starches to sugars! They should not be steeped.

Do a mini-mash at 154F for 45-60 minutes with the oats and an equal amount of 2-row.
The crystal, dark malts and the roasted Barley can be steeped.
Use a recipe calculator to determine the amount of extract needed in addition to those to get to the OG of 1.060.

Use Carafa II Special, it's the dehusked version of regular Carafa II. It's smoother, has less astringency.

* Flaked Oats:
You can use regular flaked "Old Fashioned" or "Quick Oats" or (unflavored) instant oats from the supermarket. Doesn't have to be a fancy brand like Quaker Oats or so. Cheap and cheerful store brand is fine. Do not use steel cut oats (groats).

1 lb 6 oz (623 g) Crystal malt <== It doesn't mention the Lovibond (color). I'd probably use C-40.

Thanks! This is awesome!

Ok mini mash - I can look that up I’m sure, tub of water, something to drain with that’s filtered, and enough water to cover it up at the right temp right?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks! This is awesome!

Ok mini mash - I can look that up I’m sure, tub of water, something to drain with that’s filtered, and enough water to cover it up at the right temp right?

Do the mini mash in a gallon-size or somewhat larger kitchen pot. Malt needs to be crushed of course. Rolled or flaked goods may be crushed for faster hydration and conversion.
When you buy the malts at your brew store or order them online, DO NOT have them all mixed together!
The Crystal malt, dark/roasted malts, and Roasted Barley can go together, since they are steeped together. But keep the 2-row (and if you also get your oats there) separate!

Mini Mash:

• Use 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of your mini mash grist (2-row and flaked oats, mixed 1:1). Use an online (mini) mash calculator to estimate the temperature of your strike water, or estimate yourself. You want the mash to come in at 154F. A degree or 2 lower or higher is fine, but not over 160F, enzymes start being denatured at that point.
• Add the crushed grains to the water and mix well together, but do not beat air into it.
• Measure the temp.
  • If it's higher than 154, stir in some ice chips or cold water until it's 154F.
  • If it's lower than 154F, slowly heat on the stove under constant stirring, bringing the mash from the bottom to the top until you hit 154F. Be careful not to scorch it.
• Cover with a lid and stick in a prewarmed (~150-154F) but turned off oven. The oven may be somewhat below 150F, but don't let it be over 160F.
• Let it be for an hour.
• You may give it another quick stir 15-20 minutes into the mash.

When the hour is up remove from oven, stir up again and strain through a sieve or colander. Pour the strained "wort" over the heap of grains to filter out any bits that fell through (that's called vorlaufen). Add the wort to your boil kettle. You may sparge the grains to eek out some more sugars, basically by remixing it with warm water (150-165F) then strain and vorlauf again. Add the wort from the sparge to your kettle.

Steep your grains while the mash is progressing.

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard continues to offer great advice on how to do these conversions. I'm more of a "did you know that How To Brew, 4e, has three or four pages that cover the topic well". Granted, the forum answer will be tailored to the various posters recipes (which is where forums and @IslandLizard add value).

Totally agree. Anyone who's even half serious about home brewing should buy and read John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th edition!

In a pinch, until the book arrives, his first edition is online. Brewing basics haven't changed much, but the last edition includes many updates and modernizations to home brew processes.

 

[IslandLizard]

Your water:
Unless your drinking water is known or proven to be extremely soft, free of Iron and Manganese, did not go through a water softener, and is really good tasting, for your first brew(s) we recommend (and so does Palmer) using distilled or RO water (Walmart, Supermarket) at $0.20-0.60 a gallon. Bring your own containers and tap it from the RO machine.

If you use municipal tap water, it most likely contains either Chlorine or Chloramines for sanitation. Because of that, treat all your brewing water with 1/4 crushed Campden tablet or a pinch of Potassium Metabisulfite ("Meta") per 5 gallons, before use. Just dissolve it and give it a good stir. It eliminates any Chlorine or Chloramines within a minute. You can get either at your brew store.

Note: Some distilled water has been found to contain chlorine or chloramines too, so always smell when opening the jug, or treat with Campen or Meta for all security. RO water should be free of all that.

 

[balrog]

https://beerandbrewing.com/fremont-brewings-before-dark-star-oatmeal-stout-recipe/

I was going to question the "1lb 6oz Crystal" as maybe English, but @IslandLizard is right, just go with C40

Do the mini mash in a gallon-size or somewhat larger kitchen pot. Malt needs to be crushed of course. Rolled or flaked goods may be crushed for faster hydration and conversion.
When you buy the malts at your brew store or order them online, DO NOT have them all mixed together!
The Crystal malt, dark/roasted malts, and Roasted Barley can go together, since they are steeped together. But keep the 2-row (and if you also get your oats there) separate!

Mini Mash:

• Use 1.25 to 1.5 quarts of water per pound of your mini mash grist (2-row and flaked oats, mixed 1:1). Use an online (mini) mash calculator to estimate the temperature of your strike water, or estimate yourself. You want the mash to come in at 154F. A degree or 2 lower or higher is fine, but not over 160F, enzymes start being denatured at that point.
• Add the crushed grains to the water and mix well together, but do not beat air into it.
• Measure the temp.
  • If it's higher than 154, stir in some ice chips or cold water until it's 154F.
  • If it's lower than 154F, slowly heat on the stove under constant stirring, bringing the mash from the bottom to the top until you hit 154F. Be careful not to scorch it.
• Cover with a lid and stick in a prewarmed (~150-154F) but turned off oven. The oven may be somewhat below 150F, but don't let it be over 160F.
• Let it be for an hour.
• You may give it another quick stir 15-20 minutes into the mash.

When the hour is up remove from oven, stir up again and strain through a sieve or colander. Pour the strained "wort" over the heap of grains to filter out any bits that fell through (that's called vorlaufen). Add the wort to your boil kettle. You may sparge the grains to eek out some more sugars, basically by remixing it with warm water (150-165F) then strain and vorlauf again. Add the wort from the sparge to your kettle.

Steep your grains while the mash is progressing.

@IslandLizard 's method is EXACTLY how I stepped up from extract toward AG, mashing in 5G boil kettle with paint strainer bag, in warmed-but-off oven, pull bag, drain, add water to boil voume if needed, boil adding extract beginning/middle/end depending on recipe, cool in sink, top with cold water (calculate your sink chilling and top up water temps so you don't have to chill so much since top up water will cool).

This is a beautiful method to use. Just sayin'.

 

[Dave T]

Islandlizard - thanks a bunch for that discussion. Did it today, seemed to work like a champ. So much so that I might just try an all grain batch next brew day...need a few more things I guess.

 

[RM-MN]

Islandlizard - thanks a bunch for that discussion. Did it today, seemed to work like a champ. So much so that I might just try an all grain batch next brew day...need a few more things I guess.

Tell us what things you think you need and let us help guide you. Many of us have had experience and tried a lot of different things that work well or don't work like we would like. There is no point to buying things that don't help.

For instance, I had a 5 gallon pot that I used for extract. That is sufficient to do a 2 1/2 gallon all grain batch and if you can get grains already milled the only thing you "have to" buy is a fine mesh bag. Once you have tried this all grain via BIAB, you will have a better idea of what other items make sense in your situation.

 

[Dave T]

Hm, I have two 5 gal pots, one deep, one shallow (no reason, one came with some other things I wanted to buy), and another 3.5-4 gal pot. Always thought I needed some fancy cooler/sparger/filter setup?

So, big bag (available), milled grains (also available), and some courage?

How about temp control? Right now I use a laser pyrometer - was cheap and wife got tired of using her fancy oven ones (not to mention I kept burning the probe lines on the burner), and Control heat level. Tricky up here with 20f temps, depending on the pot, the heat loss is different. Never realized until yesterday, 2 batches, 2 heat tribulations.

I’ve seen some setups with a corrugated pot inside a boil pot - assume its to get the grains out easier than trying to grab a bag? Have a smaller pot that I can drill and weld some stays and handles on?

Are the mesh bags reusable?

After yesterday, got a (to me) huge pile of grains - will have more with all grain - they any good for wildlife?

Thanks!

 

[Dave T]

Ok, interesting...4jan I started this thread, it’s not even the end of Jan and the opening statement of ‘not interested or set up for all grain’ has been negated...seems I’m both mostly set up, and pretty interested.

Are grains cheaper than extracts? Is there a benefit other than more flexibility?

 

[RM-MN]

I brew indoors, usually because the temp outside is -20 to -40. With that I use a 5 gallon pot with a paint strainer bag to do a 2 1/2 gallon batch. Since I don't have a real LHBS, I bought a mill and buy base malts in bulk when I am near a brew store, perhaps once a year. That Corona mill is so cheap it was paid for in the cost of grain quite quickly. It also gives me complete control over how well the grain is milled, worth every penny because my brewhouse efficiency doesn't change at the whim of the LHBS employee.

Yes, all grain is cheaper than extract which is cheaper than extract kits. Bulk buying, provided you have a space to store the grain, can cut the cost quite a bit. Being able to mill it yourself lets you decide on a split second that you want to brew without going to the store. It also lets you mill the grains really fine. With that, the conversion happens quickly enough that you don't have to worry about the temperatures because the conversion will be done before the mash cools.

Try a batch with just the bag in the pot. You can add a strainer basket later if you think it will help. My cheap paint strainer bag has probably lasted for over 100 batches and they are so cheap that you can have a couple spares on hand in case one tears. When my mash is over i squeeze out all the wort I can so it doesn't drip on the carpet, them carry it outside and let the wild rabbits eat it. They love the grains because they are still sweet from the sugars I can't get out. If the rabbits don't get them all eaten first, squirrels and deer like them too.

One of the benefits of all grain (besides the cost) is that you can use grains that aren't available in extracts. That gives you more flexibility in what recipes you can use.