Contaminated Yeast ?!

[hector]

You've actually never made a batch yet. You have just tossed all your batches before they were even done with fermentation, let alone conditioning and aging. Now you made a batch with no hops which I assume you are just going to pour out as well.

Maybe you want to try your hand at hard cider. If they have pasturized apple juice without preservatives in your area you can buy a bottle and ferment it right in the bottle it comes in.

Although I think the Bacterial fermentation has taken place in my current

Batch since a few Days ago , I will keep it in the Primary for 2 more Weeks .

Why do you propose to make a hard cider ?

Do you mean that I would test the Yeast in a different condition ?!

There is pasteurized Fruit Juice available to buy . But , they are not concentrated enough and

They taste very watery with very little fruity Aroma .

Hector

 

[Chefencore]

A beer hypochondriac?

 

[hector]

What he means is are you protecting your fermenting beer from light? Light will give your beer off-flavors. Keep them in a closet or covered with a towel or t-shirt.

The Jug is in a big Box made of Styrofoam and filled with cold Water , so that I can

control the ambient Temperature . The Box is capped and the inside of it is always dark .

So , I think there is no issue with the Light .

Hector

 

[hector]

I asked a Question in the post #76 of this thread , but no one seems to have an answer for that !

Hector

 

[Rockape66]

In regards to extract age; yes it can go stale and affect taste. but, if it was unopened extract has a very long shelf life. I don't believe this is your problem. Sour flavors most likely come from lactobacillus or acetobacter. So more likely an infection. Hope you have better luck with future brews.

 

[hector]

In regards to extract age; yes it can go stale and affect taste. but, if it was unopened extract has a very long shelf life. I don't believe this is your problem. Sour flavors most likely come from lactobacillus or acetobacter. So more likely an infection. Hope you have better luck with future brews.

Thanks !

You are the first one ( except me ) in this Thread who talks about "Infection" .

The others who took part in this Discussion don't believe so .

I've found someone in this Forum who has similar Problem ( Sour Beers ) after using old Extract .

The Extract which I used has the expiry date " 20th of April 2010 " .

I will brew another Batch , however , using not expired DME to see the Result .

Hector

 

[jollytim]

No he is not the first to talk about an infection. ArcaneXor mentioned a systemic problem in post #26. That means an infection due to poor sanitation. There was a weak link in your process. Please don't 'cherry pick' your responses based on what you want to hear.

Have you kept any batches? Have you let them condition? That can cure most problems. Also water with high alkalinity (like I have here) can make beer very bitter (and not like hop bitter), could be described as sour, but almost undrinkable. I've had a couple batches taste somewhat of solvent. Regardless of what the literature may claim, it was the water supply. I've switched to bottled water and problem solved.

 

[hector]

Have you kept any batches? Have you let them condition? That can cure most problems. Also water with high alkalinity (like I have here) can make beer very bitter (and not like hop bitter), could be described as sour, but almost undrinkable. I've had a couple batches taste somewhat of solvent. Regardless of what the literature may claim, it was the water supply. I've switched to bottled water and problem solved.

The longest Period I kept a Batch in the Primary was 17 Days and the Beer was very sour and with very low Alcohol .

I mentioned a number of times in this Thread that I use " Deionized Water " which has pH 6.5-7.5 for brewing , as I'm an

Extract brewer ( At least I try to be ) .

You said , you have had a couple Batches ( NOT all ! ) that tasted not so good . I brewed 4 batches using the same

DME and Water and they all tasted sour .

By the way , I've found an interesting Thread written by someone who has a similar Problem ( Having sour Beers after using old Extract ) :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/in...tract-infection-poor-brewing-practice-239105/

Hector

 

[Rockape66]

Hector, if your 'deionized' water has a pH of anything other than 7.0 it's not deionized. You may also want to add some gypsum or burtonizing salts to your water to have enough minerals for healthy yeast.

 

[hector]

Hector, if your 'deionized' water has a pH of anything other than 7.0 it's not deionized. You may also want to add some gypsum or burtonizing salts to your water to have enough minerals for healthy yeast.

I've never seen any Deionized Water which has a fix pH 7.0 , because it depends on

Temperature and the Water absorbs CO2 from the Air .

I think the Extract brings enough Minerals for the Yeast and because of that

Malt Extracts can be brewed by using RO-Water .

Hector

 

[jollytim]

I don't know about 'deionized' water, sounds like snakeoil.

Your problem may indeed be old extract, but I would guess it's more than likely you aren't giving it enough time to become the beer you want it to be. Doesn't matter how long you keep it in the primary if you dump it before it's carbonated and conditioned. Flavor changes through all the stages. What starts out as unpalatable, can become fantastic.

I've used old extract, and unless it's from a can, the only problem I've had with old extract is that it is darker than normal, and ends up a little sweeter. Not sour.

I wouldn't think you need to add any kind of salts to the water though, extract contains that already.

And yes, I had a several batches that came out not so good, but improved dramatically after several months in the bottle. Time is your friend here, don't be so impatient.

 

[Gameface]

Hector hasn't even made any beer yet. He's made wort and thrown it out every time. He's obsessed with the idea of his beer getting an infection and has been able to convince himself that he's had one on every batch.

I'd say beer making isn't his cup of tea.

 

[hector]

yes, I had a several batches that came out not so good, but improved dramatically after several months in the bottle. Time is your friend here, don't be so impatient.

The DME I use was sold to me in a big plastic Bag .

I bought 10 Kg of Light DME , because that was the minimum amount to be sold in each Batch of that Extract .

As I said , it has the expiry Date 20th of April 2010 .

I would leave the Beer in the Primary longer or in the Bottle afterwards , but the Extract would be always older and older then and

I think that would cause more Problems by the future Batches .

I will definitely brew a new Batch using some not expired DME to see and compare the Result .

Hector

 

[hector]

Hector hasn't even made any beer yet. He's made wort and thrown it out every time. He's obsessed with the idea of his beer getting an infection and has been able to convince himself that he's had one on every batch.

That was because I had NOT heard of disadvantages of using old Extracts and I thought by each

Batch that the Sourness and bad Smells come from contamination .

Even in this Thread no one asked me if I use a fresh or an old Extract !

Hector

 

[pjj2ba]

If you want to get multiple uses out a single packet of yeast I would make a large starter using the WHOLE packet. Yes, very over-pitched, but you aren't going to drink it so it doesn't matter so much. Let if ferment for 3-14 days, then put it in the refrigerator for a day to settle. Pour off most of the liquid and then swirl it up well and divide it between a number of sanitized containers - however many you can do that would have the proper pitch rate. Now you have yeast the will keep for a couple months, in a good size for your small batches.

By pitching all the yeast at once into a single container, you reduce to chances of contamination. I say 3 - 14 days because, while 3 days is likely enough growth, if you are concerned about contamination, this should be evident by day 14. Take a taste of the liquid you decant off of the settled yeast. It probably won't taste very good because you've overpitched, but if it tastes sour then you know you have a problem.

 

[hector]

If you want to get multiple uses out a single packet of yeast I would make a large starter using the WHOLE packet. Yes, very over-pitched, but you aren't going to drink it so it doesn't matter so much. Let if ferment for 3-14 days, then put it in the refrigerator for a day to settle.

Thanks for your professional Hint !

Have you ever made yourself such a Starter before ?

If I let it ferment for 14 Days , would it end up with exhausted Yeast ?

Would such a Starter be able to make a vigorous fermentation , as if I'm using some fresh and healthy dry Yeast ?!

Hector

 

[bigbrewster2000]

Hector,

It sounds like you need to remove your beer from the fermenting container into a bottling bucket and add corn sugar into it then bottle your beer and wait 2 or 3 weeks after doing so. If it still tastes bad then you may have an infection. You have never given your beer a chance to become beer.

 

[hector]

Hector,

It sounds like you need to remove your beer from the fermenting container into a bottling bucket and add corn sugar into it then bottle your beer and wait 2 or 3 weeks after doing so. If it still tastes bad then you may have an infection. You have never given your beer a chance to become beer.

I wouldn't do that now , because there are still tiny bobbles coming upwards from the Bottom to the Surface .

I'd like also to know , if that ( after being for 10 Days in the Primary ) is normal , as I used a fast fermenting Yeast .

Hector

 

[Tinga]

I wouldn't do that now , because there are still tiny bobbles coming upwards from the Bottom to the Surface .

I'd like also to know , if that ( after being for 10 Days in the Primary ) is normal , as I used a fast fermenting Yeast .

Hector

completely normal. it may do you some good to just brew a batch and not look at it for three - four weeks then just bottle it even if it looks infected.

better yet. don't look at your beer at all for four weeks after brewing it. period.

 

[jds]

Hector:

You're getting a lot of great advice in this thread. Here's something else I think will help you. A fellow named John Palmer wrote a great introduction to brewing called How to Brew. He even put the first edition of the book online for people to see and learn from. I think you should read it, especially the first section on brewing your first beer.

Here's a link: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/index.html

I think if you read that over, you'll learn a lot and find out that maybe you're making the whole thing too complicated. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that if you followed Palmer's instructions exactly, from beginning to end, you'd end up with good beer.

 

[hector]

Hector:

You're getting a lot of great advice in this thread. Here's something else I think will help you. A fellow named John Palmer wrote a great introduction to brewing called How to Brew. He even put the first edition of the book online for people to see and learn from. I think you should read it, especially the first section on brewing your first beer.

I know John Palmer and his Book since 2 Years ago . I've read all the Sections of the online Version several times .

As I don't have access to the printed one , I always thought that 14 Days are enough for the

Primary until I read several Posts in this Forum and listened to several Podcasts concerning brewing

Beer and found out that some Principles have been changed day after day .

Hector

 

[jollytim]

hector, we've been trying to help you. But if you don't put the beer in a bottle, let it carbonate and condition then you don't know what it's going to be like. You are trying to troubleshoot a problem before you are even half-way done with the process.

I doubt your contamination is coming from the extract, especially if you've boiled it. I'm suspicious if you even have a contamination at all, as you are tasting at the half-way point. Let at least one batch finish, then, if there is a problem, try to figure it out from that point.

 

[hector]

hector, we've been trying to help you. But if you don't put the beer in a bottle, let it carbonate and condition then you don't know what it's going to be like. You are trying to troubleshoot a problem before you are even half-way done with the process.

O.K. I agree with all of you to let it ferment longer in the Primary and then bottle .

Today is the 10th Day of the Primary .

I swear to God that I'll keep it 10 more Days in the Primary and then bottle and

will keep them at 20C for another 21-Day Period .

Hector

 

[brewit2it]

O.K. I agree with all of you to let it ferment longer in the Primary and then bottle .

Today is the 10th Day of the Primary .

I swear to God that I'll keep it 10 more Days in the Primary and then bottle and

will keep them at 20C for another 21-Day Period .

Hector

Make some hop tea and add it. This batch is pretty much sure to taste bad considering you didn't use any hops.

 

[jds]

Hector:

I'm glad you've read up on Palmer. His advice is generally pretty good. Here's my last advice on the whole matter: Start over.

What I mean is this: Pretend it's your first batch of beer ever. Make it with fresh extract and hops, pitch half a packet of dry yeast in it, put it in a cool, dark place, and ignore it completely for two weeks. Don't look in on it to make sure of anything. Don't taste it, smell it, or take a gravity reading after you pitch the yeast. Simply let it go for at least two weeks. You can even let it go longer without any serious worries*. After two to three weeks in the primary fermenter, bottle it, condition for three weeks at room temperature, and then and only then refrigerate and taste.

Yeast are dumb little organisms, except for one thing: They have more than 4,000 years of experience and untold generations of selective "breeding" to do three things: Eat sugar, fart CO2, and pee alcohol. Man was making beer for thousands of years before modern society, the internet, scientific equipment, sanitizers, hygrometers and all the rest. The Abbey brewers named yeast "Godisgood" because they didn't really know what it was or what it did, only that they needed it for brewing.

You have to let the yeast work according to their timetable. Yeast don't have an internal calendar and aren't smart enough to know if they've been in the fermenter five days, twenty days, or for nine months. They don't care what the specific gravity of the beer is. They eat sugar until the sugar is all gone, then they go to sleep.

We people, with the illusion of control, can only do harm by opening up the fermenters and rooting around in them until the yeast are done with their job. All you can do is give the yeast the proper environment, then wait.

So, that's my suggestion. Keep up your very good sanitation practices, stop worrying about infection, and ignore your beer. The yeast will reward your indifference with good beer.

*Due to a boneheaded move by my neighbor, we once let his half of an 11 gallon batch of beer sit in the primary fermenter in his basement for nine months. While I don't recommend it and the beer was over-aged, we eventually bottled it and he drank it. It wasn't great beer, but it was OK beer, even after being completely ignored for 3/4 of a year.

 

[hector]

Hector:

I'm glad you've read up on Palmer. His advice is generally pretty good. Here's my last advice on the whole matter: Start over.

What I mean is this: Pretend it's your first batch of beer ever. Make it with fresh extract and hops, pitch half a packet of dry yeast in it, put it in a cool, dark place, and ignore it completely for two weeks.

Dear jds ,

Thanks a lot for your Advice !

I know the whole Story about a Phenomena called "Yeast" . I've read about it quite a lot .

I know that Beverages generally improve by aging .

The Problem was that I had not heard of disadvantages of using old Extract by the time of making my previous Batches .

As my Reference was John Palmer's Book , I always thought that sourness has only one meaning and that is " Contamination " .

Then I thought by each sour Batch that it is not worth bottling an infected Batch and therefore I dumped it .

By the way , I listened recently to a Podcast concerning brewing Extract Kits . Someone on this Podcast described a

Batch which was made by him using old extract . The Description matches exactly to my previous Batches :

" Thin , Harsh , Bitter and Sour " even after Bottling and Conditioning by him .

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/698

So , I assume now that my Problem is 90% due to the old Extract .

I've decided actually to make a new Batch using FRESH Extract to see and compare the Result , as I said before .

I would leave the current Batch , however , in the Primary and then bottle it .

Hector

 

[gomb]

This may have been covered and I missed it, but the only time I have heard talk of old extract, it was in dealing with liquid. The dry stuff has never given me issues. I did make a kit using questionable LME a few months back and in my experience, old liquid extract makes bad beer. That beer is just nasty and will most likely be dumped in the next couple of months so that I can use the bottles. I read a thread on here awhile back discussing the differences between LME and DME and age was one of the big ones. I would stick with your DME, follow jds' advice and start over, and the biggest thing you can do to assist your process is to RELAX. You are way overthinking every step. Like the others have said, people have been brewing for thousands of years, so just let the yeast do its thing.

 

[hector]

This may have been covered and I missed it, but the only time I have heard talk of old extract, it was in dealing with liquid. The dry stuff has never given me issues. I did make a kit using questionable LME a few months back and in my experience, old liquid extract makes bad beer. That beer is just nasty and will most likely be dumped in the next couple of months so that I can use the bottles. I read a thread on here awhile back discussing the differences between LME and DME and age was one of the big ones.

If you are going to say that only old Liquid Extracts make this Problem , then I have a Question :

Why does my DME have an " Expiry Date " ?!

Hector

 

[gomb]

I would imagine the same reason water has an expiry date, some bureaucracy somewhere deemed that everything needed an expiry date. If you have stored your DME correctly, no wet/bugs, I keep mine in an airtight container, then I would expect it to be good for years.

 

[hector]

I would imagine the same reason water has an expiry date, some bureaucracy somewhere deemed that everything needed an expiry date.

I don't think so !

Hector

 

[statseeker]

The expiration date on anything is only a guideline for when something has lost its initial freshness. As they say in car dealerships, your mileage may vary. In ideal circumstances, stored correctly (such as vacuum packaging), DME can last a long time, probably years beyond expiration. If it's been exposed to the elements in any way or underpackaged it could lose quality faster. In that case I would change suppliers.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/dme-does-go-bad-214527/

 

[gomb]

Think about the dry goods you keep in the house. Sugar, salt, flour, rice, spices. Do you worry about the expiry dates on those or do you just keep using them until something is obviously wrong with them?

 

[pjj2ba]

Thanks for your professional Hint !

Have you ever made yourself such a Starter before ?

If I let it ferment for 14 Days , would it end up with exhausted Yeast ?

Would such a Starter be able to make a vigorous fermentation , as if I'm using some fresh and healthy dry Yeast ?!

Hector

The yeast may be a little tired, but toss them in some fresh wort and they will take off. Lots of people will save the yeast from the bottom of the primary after they have moved the beer off of it. They will transfer it to a new container and put it in the fridge. It can easily last for several months. Of course the best time to pitch is when it is fermenting rapidly. That is what most of us would do with a starter. However there is no reason why you couldn't let it ferment out and then divide it up

 

[hector]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/dme-does-go-bad-214527/

I took a look at the Thread titled " DME does go bad ? " .

All of them used old DME just for making a Starter , NOT for brewing a whole Batch .

Hector

 

[hector]

Think about the dry goods you keep in the house. Sugar, salt, flour, rice, spices. Do you worry about the expiry dates on those or do you just keep using them until something is obviously wrong with them?

Flour , Rice , Spices and so on are used probably for cooking , baking and ...

But , Fermentation is something else !

Hector

 

[gomb]

What do you think making beer is? It is cooking. Thats all, nothing more. That being said, I am checking out of this thread. You are not looking for help. You are looking for people to validate what you think is happening. You have yet to actually make beer. You have 12 pages of people here trying to help you, but you refuse to listen. I am done wasting any effort here.

 

[BrewKnurd]

What do you think making beer is? It is cooking. Thats all, nothing more. That being said, I am checking out of this thread. You are not looking for help. You are looking for people to validate what you think is happening. You have yet to actually make beer. You have 12 pages of people here trying to help you, but you refuse to listen. I am done wasting any effort here.

I love it when the people asking the questions act like the expert whenever they hear an answer they don't like.

 

[hector]

I love it when the people asking the questions act like the expert whenever they hear an answer they don't like.

I have NEVER said that I'm an expert in brewing !

I have already AGREED to let the current Batch sit in the Primary for 2-3 Weeks and then bottle conditioning for another 3-Week-Period .

I have also decided to brew a new Batch using fresh DME to see and compare the Result .

I have B.Sc in Chemistry and I just said my Opinion that I think fermentation is not just cooking , because as everyone knows ,

Yeast makes the Beer and it is a microbiological Activity .

I appreciate any piece of advice here .

So , what's wrong with you , Brewers ?!

Hector

 

[BrewKnurd]

I appreciate any piece of advice here .

So , what's wrong with you , Brewers ?!

Hector

Priceless.

 

[hector]

Priceless.

I never mind what you think about it !

The main thing is that they recommended me to let the current Batch sit in the Primary longer and I took this Advice .

Hector