Yeast starter questions!!!

[Bilbo24]

Hello again!! I’m buying an Extra Dry Irish Stout extract kit and the OG is supposed to be 1.072. They suggest in the instructions that I make a yeast starter. No other instructions than that as far as the yeast starter. They have supplied 2 packets of Wyeast 1084. My kit also includes 1 lb. Golden Light DME.

From what I’ve found elsewhere, I should have 1 liter of yeast starter for a 5 gal batch. I think that means that I mix 100 grams of DME until I have 1 liter mixture of DME and water. Then boil, cool, etc and mix in the yeast.
My first question is: is that all correct?
My second question is: do I use 100 grams of the 1 lb. of the Golden Light DME that I’m supposed to use in the recipe or do I buy additional light DME and use that? This is the site I looked at about the yeast starter formula:
How to Make a Yeast Starter Thanks for any help!!!

 

[BeerHolic]

Making of yeast starter sounds fine for the sire you supplied.
I usually use extra DME to make starter, but if you do not have any on hand go ahead on use from the 1lb, it will be part of the wort in any case.

 

[RM-MN]

My accidental experience when I started all grain brewing and made a couple batches with 1.070 OG is that a single packet is sufficient to fully ferment that high of OG beer. Two packets would get you and earlier start as the yeast won't need to double but that doubling should only add about 90 minutes to the time. I would not do a starter with dry yeast.

 

[Jag75]

If you had 1 pack of yeast , I'd do a starter . With 2 packs you'll be fine .

 

[jsphlynch]

Short answer: it sounds like you're on the right track. I doubt the supplier intended for you to use DME from the kit for your starter, but it really won't hurt.

Longer answer: With two fresh packets of yeast, you will almost certainly be fine without a starter, but it will give you a bit of insurance to ensure you have good fermentation. Try using a yeast calculator. I personally like the Brewer's Friend calculator as it's pretty intuitive and flexible, and it automatically calculates how much DME to use based on the target gravity and volume of the starter. My assumption is that the kit DME is intended to all go into the boil (the recipe probably specifies that); however, 100 g of DME in a 5 gallon batch only provides about 2 gravity points worth of extract, so robbing that much DME from your kit will have less impact on your beer than the other sources of variation you'll almost certainly experience.

 

[Bilbo24]

My accidental experience when I started all grain brewing and made a couple batches with 1.070 OG is that a single packet is sufficient to fully ferment that high of OG beer. Two packets would get you and earlier start as the yeast won't need to double but that doubling should only add about 90 minutes to the time. I would not do a starter with dry yeast.

Does it make a difference in any of these replies if Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast is a LIQUID yeast!

 

[mac_1103]

Does it make a difference in any of these replies if Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast is a LIQUID yeast!

Maybe the one you quoted, but the others all seem to account for the fact that it's a liquid yeast.

The only thing I'll add is that whether you'll be fine without a starter depends on how fresh those yeast packs are and how well cold-chain has been maintained since they were packaged. Making a starter will ensure that the yeast that go into your wort are healthy and happy even if the packs got warmed up somewhere along the way and the viability took a hit.

 

[Bilbo24]

Maybe the one you quoted, but the others all seem to account for the fact that it's a liquid yeast.

The only thing I'll add is that whether you'll be fine without a starter depends on how fresh those yeast packs are and how well cold-chain has been maintained since they were packaged. Making a starter will ensure that the yeast that go into your wort are healthy and happy even if the packs got warmed up somewhere along the way and the viability took a hit.

Yes, I agree about the problem with the cold chain. This time of year and I’m in Tenn! One of my choices for this was Safeale S-04, but I’m too much of a newbie to know ! Any thoughts!

 

[Jag75]

So dry yeast you don't need a starter . You also don't need to aerate . Liquid yeast , recommend a starter , unless you have multiple packs . You also should aerate when using liquid yeast .

When you get kits , look at all the options of yeast and look into those yeast characteristics to make your decision.

You can make starters on a stir plate , or do a SNS(shakin not stirred) starter , which works very well .

 

[mac_1103]

They gave you the 1084. It's a good yeast for the style and it's probably fine. Even if it's not fine for a direct pitch, it is almost certainly not completely dead. It certainly won't get better sitting in your fridge. As others have said, making a starter isn't hard. Except in the highly unlikely event that it is completely dead, you will see obvious signs of fermentation in the starter which will reassure you that it is good to pitch. Using 100 grams of your DME for the starter won't hurt the beer. Personally, that is what I would do.

 

[RM-MN]

Does it make a difference in any of these replies if Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast is a LIQUID yeast!

A little. The work packet implies dry yeast while pack suggest liquid. Liquid yeast typically has fewer cells in a pack than equivalent dry yeast has in a packet but both can replicate in the wort. Dry yeast has the nutrients in the packet to do so, liquid yeast needs oxygen added to the wort for replication.

 

[Bilbo24]

A little. The work packet implies dry yeast while pack suggest liquid. Liquid yeast typically has fewer cells in a pack than equivalent dry yeast has in a packet but both can replicate in the wort. Dry yeast has the nutrients in the packet to do so, liquid yeast needs oxygen added to the wort for replication.

Thanks.. I’m new to this… I should have said PACK! Thanks for saying that!!!

They gave you the 1084. It's a good yeast for the style and it's probably fine. Even if it's not fine for a direct pitch, it is almost certainly not completely dead. It certainly won't get better sitting in your fridge. As others have said, making a starter isn't hard. Except in the highly unlikely even that it is completely dead, ou will see obvious signs of fermentation in the starter which will reassure you that it is good to pitch. Using 100 grams of your DME for the starter won't hurt the beer. Personally, that is what I would do.

I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts on what I’ve posted. I probably should have been more clear on my question of which yeast. With this particular brew kit, which is called Captain’s Ration, I’m given the choice of a number of different yeasts, dry and liquid. I initially chose Wyeast 1084 because it is a liquid and it says it is an Irish ale yeast and it was the cheapest of the liquid yeasts. I guess I was thinking liquid yeasts were better but that might not be correct. The other choices were Omega Yeast OYL-005 Irish ale yeast, Imperial Yeast A-10 Darkness, Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast, Safeale S-04, the first three being liquid and the Safeale S-04 being a dry yeast. Whichever yeast I choose, they will supply 2 units of that yeast. The Captain’s Ration is an Irish Dry Export Stout with an OG of 1072. They say the ABV (7.1%) falls between a regular dry stout and an imperial dry stout. Does anyone have thoughts on these yeasts? Dry yeast would eliminate the issue of trying to keep it cold from Minnesota to Tennessee!

 

[mac_1103]

If you want easy and worry-free, go with the S-04. If you want the absolutely best yeast for the style, you'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me.

 

[Bilbo24]

Thanks mac_1103!!!

 

[RM-MN]

I guess I was thinking liquid yeasts were better but that might not be correct.

There is a wider variety of liquid yeasts available than dry yeasts but the liquid yeast needs special handling and a starter is usually employed due to the lower cell counts. Dry yeast can be stored longer in a wider array of conditions than liquid. You have to then decide what you mean by the word better. It's better for me to order dry yeast in November through April because I can't be sure that liquid yeast won't freeze and become destroyed. It would be better to choose the proper yeast for the style of beer I want to brew.

 

[jsphlynch]

I guess I was thinking liquid yeasts were better but that might not be correct. The other choices were Omega Yeast OYL-005 Irish ale yeast, Imperial Yeast A-10 Darkness, Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast, Safeale S-04

IIRC all three of those liquid yeasts are supposed to be isolates from Guinness, whereas S-04 is British in origin. In other words, of the provided options, the dry yeast is genetically most dissimilar to the strain that is used to make a particularly well-known stout. So if that particular yeast character is what you want, than yes, liquid yeast is better because, consistent with what @RM-MN said about available variety, you don't have a dry option for that particular strain.

I've heard that manufacturing processes and quality control for dry yeast have changed over time, so historically there might have been a more substantial quality difference between dry and liquid yeasts than there is presently. For my brewing, when equivalent strains are available in both formats I have a slight preference for using liquid yeast as it generally has shorter lag times for me, but that preference is often overridden by the fact that dry is cheaper to buy, cheaper to ship, and I have less concerns about viability loss during transit.

I initially chose Wyeast 1084 because it is a liquid and it says it is an Irish ale yeast and it was the cheapest of the liquid yeasts.

Wyeast will almost always be cheaper than the other two liquid brands you mentioned, but it also has lower cell counts so there may be situations where using Wyeast requires making a starter but spending the extra on Imperial or Omega allows you to direct pitch.

 

[Bilbo24]

Short answer: it sounds like you're on the right track. I doubt the supplier intended for you to use DME from the kit for your starter, but it really won't hurt.

Longer answer: With two fresh packets of yeast, you will almost certainly be fine without a starter, but it will give you a bit of insurance to ensure you have good fermentation. Try using a yeast calculator. I personally like the Brewer's Friend calculator as it's pretty intuitive and flexible, and it automatically calculates how much DME to use based on the target gravity and volume of the starter. My assumption is that the kit DME is intended to all go into the boil (the recipe probably specifies that); however, 100 g of DME in a 5 gallon batch only provides about 2 gravity points worth of extract, so robbing that much DME from your kit will have less impact on your beer than the other sources of variation you'll almost certainly experience.

Thank you for all your help!!!!

 

[Bilbo24]

So dry yeast you don't need a starter . You also don't need to aerate . Liquid yeast , recommend a starter , unless you have multiple packs . You also should aerate when using liquid yeast .

When you get kits , look at all the options of yeast and look into those yeast characteristics to make your decision.

You can make starters on a stir plate , or do a SNS(shakin not stirred) starter , which works very well .

Thank you for your help!!!!

 

[Bilbo24]

They gave you the 1084. It's a good yeast for the style and it's probably fine. Even if it's not fine for a direct pitch, it is almost certainly not completely dead. It certainly won't get better sitting in your fridge. As others have said, making a starter isn't hard. Except in the highly unlikely event that it is completely dead, you will see obvious signs of fermentation in the starter which will reassure you that it is good to pitch. Using 100 grams of your DME for the starter won't hurt the beer. Personally, that is what I would do.

Thank you!!!

 

[Bilbo24]

There is a wider variety of liquid yeasts available than dry yeasts but the liquid yeast needs special handling and a starter is usually employed due to the lower cell counts. Dry yeast can be stored longer in a wider array of conditions than liquid. You have to then decide what you mean by the word better. It's better for me to order dry yeast in November through April because I can't be sure that liquid yeast won't freeze and become destroyed. It would be better to choose the proper yeast for the style of beer I want to brew.

Great!! Thank you!!!

 

[Bilbo24]

IIRC all three of those liquid yeasts are supposed to be isolates from Guinness, whereas S-04 is British in origin. In other words, of the provided options, the dry yeast is genetically most dissimilar to the strain that is used to make a particularly well-known stout. So if that particular yeast character is what you want, than yes, liquid yeast is better because, consistent with what @RM-MN said about available variety, you don't have a dry option for that particular strain.

I've heard that manufacturing processes and quality control for dry yeast have changed over time, so historically there might have been a more substantial quality difference between dry and liquid yeasts than there is presently. For my brewing, when equivalent strains are available in both formats I have a slight preference for using liquid yeast as it generally has shorter lag times for me, but that preference is often overridden by the fact that dry is cheaper to buy, cheaper to ship, and I have less concerns about viability loss during transit.


Wyeast will almost always be cheaper than the other two liquid brands you mentioned, but it also has lower cell counts so there may be situations where using Wyeast requires making a starter but spending the extra on Imperial or Omega allows you to direct pitch.

Great!! Thank you!!

 

[Bilbo24]

IIRC all three of those liquid yeasts are supposed to be isolates from Guinness, whereas S-04 is British in origin. In other words, of the provided options, the dry yeast is genetically most dissimilar to the strain that is used to make a particularly well-known stout. So if that particular yeast character is what you want, than yes, liquid yeast is better because, consistent with what @RM-MN said about available variety, you don't have a dry option for that particular strain.

I've heard that manufacturing processes and quality control for dry yeast have changed over time, so historically there might have been a more substantial quality difference between dry and liquid yeasts than there is presently. For my brewing, when equivalent strains are available in both formats I have a slight preference for using liquid yeast as it generally has shorter lag times for me, but that preference is often overridden by the fact that dry is cheaper to buy, cheaper to ship, and I have less concerns about viability loss during transit.


Wyeast will almost always be cheaper than the other two liquid brands you mentioned, but it also has lower cell counts so there may be situations where using Wyeast requires making a starter but spending the extra on Imperial or Omega allows you to direct pitch.

Thank you!!!!

 

[Lee0110]

1-liter yeast starter is a good choice

 

[Closet Fermenter]

If you want easy and worry-free, go with the S-04. If you want the absolutely best yeast for the style, you'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me.

Yessir! I always try to keep an Irish Dry Stout on tap, and I always use the SafAle-04; it’s never let me down out of the pack. I once had a misfire on some harvested yeast that I left in the fridge too long, but that was my fault.

Brewing in SC, I don’t take the risk on ordering liquid yeasts. I would only use liquid if my local store had what I needed in stock. Good luck!

 

[Bilbo24]

Yessir! I always try to keep an Irish Dry Stout on tap, and I always use the SafAle-04; it’s never let me down out of the pack. I once had a misfire on some harvested yeast that I left in the fridge too long, but that was my fault.

Brewing in SC, I don’t take the risk on ordering liquid yeasts. I would only use liquid if my local store had what I needed in stock. Good luck!

Thanks!! I just pulled the trigger and ordered the kit with the SafAle -04!! There is not a brew supply store within a 100 miles of me!

 

[seatazzz]

I would suggest that once you receive your kit, report back on what the instructions tell you to do; not with the yeast, but with the extract and water. If you are using dry yeast, there is a very simple way to ensure your yeast gets a good head start. It's called a vitality starter, I use it a lot when I'm using dry yeast with a higher OG wort (what beer is called before it is beer). Do you know yet if the kit will include Dry malt extract or Liquid? If dry, you are in luck. You can add a small amount of the dry malt extract (it is usually called DME) to room temperature (about 68-70°) water, maybe 8oz. Mix it well, then add your dry yeast (a lidded tupperware/rubbermaid plastic container works great for this). Shake it up some, then let it sit while your wort is boiling. You may have to 'burp' the container if the yeast take off quickly. Once you have the wort chilled to pitching temperature (about 66-68°), add the yeast mixture. It isn't really a 'starter', but it does give the yeast a bit of a head start on working. Sort of like proofing yeast when making bread, just at a much lower temperature.

Your kit will include the right amount of extract to get the starting gravity called for; using a small amount to jump-start the yeast doesn't take anything away from that, since it will be going in the fermenter anyway.

There's an old saying about beer; Know yeast, know beer. No yeast, no beer!

 

[Bilbo24]

I would suggest that once you receive your kit, report back on what the instructions tell you to do; not with the yeast, but with the extract and water. If you are using dry yeast, there is a very simple way to ensure your yeast gets a good head start. It's called a vitality starter, I use it a lot when I'm using dry yeast with a higher OG wort (what beer is called before it is beer). Do you know yet if the kit will include Dry malt extract or Liquid? If dry, you are in luck. You can add a small amount of the dry malt extract (it is usually called DME) to room temperature (about 68-70°) water, maybe 8oz. Mix it well, then add your dry yeast (a lidded tupperware/rubbermaid plastic container works great for this). Shake it up some, then let it sit while your wort is boiling. You may have to 'burp' the container if the yeast take off quickly. Once you have the wort chilled to pitching temperature (about 66-68°), add the yeast mixture. It isn't really a 'starter', but it does give the yeast a bit of a head start on working. Sort of like proofing yeast when making bread, just at a much lower temperature.

Your kit will include the right amount of extract to get the starting gravity called for; using a small amount to jump-start the yeast doesn't take anything away from that, since it will be going in the fermenter anyway.

There's an old saying about beer; Know yeast, know beer. No yeast, no beer!

Thank you for the great explanation. I’ve learned a lot!!