Constant Stuck Sparges with Copper Manifold

[barhoc11]

Ever since I built the copper manifold shown below, I get stuck sparges 9 out of 10 times. I am now to the point that I want to change things up or figure out what the heck is going on. My manifold is not unlike many others in this forum so I cannot figure out what I am doing wrong. The manifold has linear cuts in the bottom throughout just as others do, you cannot see it in the picture.

I crush my own grain after conditioning it and I do get a good fine crush but I even see some whole kernels so I can't be crushing too fine (unless that is a fault with a corona mill). I am ready to go back to a braided tube at this point I am so frustrated, any help is much appreciated.

 

[corax]

What kind of mash do you do?

What didn't you like about the hose braid that made you switch to a manifold?

I do batch sparge or no sparge, and I switched from a slotted copper manifold to a hose braid and got an increase in efficiency. I never had a stuck sparge with either.

 

[barhoc11]

I do batch sparges and I built the copper manifold because I had gotten stuck sparges before, just not as often. I also made this because I could see that stirring of the mash was going to cause me to buy multiple braided hoses due to being bent from the mash paddle.

I thought that by building this, I would have a worry free screen for all of my mashes but it is almost the opposite. If you cannot tell, I am getting frustrated just thinking about it.

 

[corax]

The braid coming up off the bottom is the only problem I've had with it. I shortened the braid to about 4-inches. It's just as efficient, and seems less likely to get displaced by stirring. With a batch sparge you really don't need to drain from every point of the bed, as you do with a fly sparge. A single drainage point works just fine.

Regarding stuck sparges, have you tried doing a more coarse crush?

 

[brewkinger]

Regarding stuck sparges, have you tried doing a more coarse crush?

That is where I would start to fine tune.

I would also check to make sure that your linear cuts in the bottom of the manifold are large enough, I had to recut mine because when the manifold sat on the bottom of the cooler, it would close off many of the openings.

 

[DPBISME]

Could you be crushing your grain to small? It is the only thing I can thingk of with out seeing your "cuts" and a recipie...

Maybe not hot enough sparge... ME --> 170 almost always... let it sit for a few minutes before running, and stir a time or two...

DPB

 

[barhoc11]

So I just went and looked at my setup to see if I could find any faults, I think I may finally have figured out what it is. It looks like the manifold does not lie completely flat in the bottom of the cooler so that would allow those parts to get clogged up very easily.

I am just wondering how this is happening, it may be the bottom of the cooler has warped from hot water of sparging so I will need to look into this a bit more because I am not sure how useful a manifold is if it doesn't sit flush against the bottom of the mlt.

 

[barhoc11]

Does anyone have the issue I have where the manifold is not lying flush against the cooler bottom?

 

[cfonnes]

I have a copper manifold, do not think that the problem would be with it not lying flat of the bottom.

I have my mill set for a fine crush (better efficiency) but have to use rice hulls. If I use the LHBS mill I get lower efficiency but do not need rice hulls. I think that I am going to adjust my mill a little less of a crush.

 

[barhoc11]

I have a copper manifold, do not think that the problem would be with it not lying flat of the bottom.

I have my mill set for a fine crush (better efficiency) but have to use rice hulls. If I use the LHBS mill I get lower efficiency but do not need rice hulls. I think that I am going to adjust my mill a little less of a crush.

So you are saying you do get stuck sparges if you go too fine and do not use rice hulls? I have never heard anyone besides myself who has admitted to getting a stuck sparge with a copper manifold like this.

 

[kh54s10]

I can't advise on the manifold other than to crush a little coarser and to check that the slits in the tubing are large enough to allow flow without getting clogged. I would also think that if the manifold is tight to the bottom that is restricting the area that the wort can get through.

As to the braids, I used a larger diameter water heater hose for mine. It is large enough that it is hose clamped to the outside of the threaded connector on the inside. There is no barb on the inside. I think the braid is about 3/4" to 1" inside diameter. It is much heavier that the ones that go to a sink or toilet. I can smash the heck out of it stirring the grain with no problems and have done close to 30 batches without a stuck sparge.

 

[barhoc11]

I can't advise on the manifold other than to crush a little coarser and to check that the slits in the tubing are large enough to allow flow without getting clogged. I would also think that if the manifold is tight to the bottom that is restricting the area that the wort can get through.

As to the braids, I used a larger diameter water heater hose for mine. It is large enough that it is hose clamped to the outside of the threaded connector on the inside. There is no barb on the inside. I think the braid is about 3/4" to 1" inside diameter. It is much heavier that the ones that go to a sink or toilet. I can smash the heck out of it stirring the grain with no problems and have done close to 30 batches without a stuck sparge.

This makes me wonder if maybe my slots on the bottom are too small, does anyone have an idea how wide these should be to avoid stuck sparges?

I will try to turn down my crush but I do not want to have whole grains in the mash, if possible

 

[cfonnes]

So you are saying you do get stuck sparges if you go too fine and do not use rice hulls? I have never heard anyone besides myself who has admitted to getting a stuck sparge with a copper manifold like this.

That is correct.

What did you use to cut the slots in the manifold? I used a hack saw.

 

[barhoc11]

That is correct.

What did you use to cut the slots in the manifold? I used a hack saw.

I used a hacksaw with a metal blade on it. It worked fine but now I wonder if I need to make the slots bigger?

 

[brewkinger]

That is correct.

What did you use to cut the slots in the manifold? I used a hack saw.

I used a hacksaw as well and when I made my cuts, I used a wooden template that allowed me to make the depth of every cut roughly 1/8".
It was a painfully slow process and I even attempted a couple of cuts with a Dremel tool but it did not work as well.

As far as the manifold resting off the bottom of the MLT, when I installed mine, it sat barely off the bottom of the MLT, but I assumed that with the weight of 12# of wet grain sitting on top of it it would sit on the bottom when mashing.

I would check both possibilities.

 

[barhoc11]

I used a hacksaw as well and when I made my cuts, I used a wooden template that allowed me to make the depth of every cut roughly 1/8".
It was a painfully slow process and I even attempted a couple of cuts with a Dremel tool but it did not work as well.

As far as the manifold resting off the bottom of the MLT, when I installed mine, it sat barely off the bottom of the MLT, but I assumed that with the weight of 12# of wet grain sitting on top of it it would sit on the bottom when mashing.

I would check both possibilities.

You are saying you get stuck sparges unless you use rice hulls, correct? It sounds like we have used a very similar process and are both having issues, I would just be curious to see how others with similar setups are making it.

 

[brewkinger]

It was not me that mentioned the rice hulls with my copper manifold, it was cfonnes.

I never had to use rice hulls when I had the copper, I made my slits bigger.
I have used rice hulls in the past but on a recipe with a wheat bill and one other time.

 

[Wynne-R]

Really? Mine runs like a cow peeing on a flat rock. I used it on probably a hundred batches and never stuck one. The middle pieces are solid for better dispersion on continuous (fly) sparging.

I used a small triangle file to smooth the rough edges of the saw cut, so the slots are slightly wider than a hacksaw blade. I bet that’ll work for you.

 

[outside92129]

when does your sparge get stuck? If it's right at the beginning you may have an air-locked manifold.

Are you able to condition your grain?

 

[barhoc11]

when does your sparge get stuck? If it's right at the beginning you may have an air-locked manifold.

Are you able to condition your grain?

My sparge gets stuck around 3/4 of the way through each sparge cycle and I end up having to blow in the tube to get it going again, leading to having to vorlauf until it starts to run clear once again.

I condition my grain EVERY time before I crush it since I was told it would help with stuck sparges (more intact hulls) but that hasn't helped. My efficiency has gone up but hasn't helped my stuck sparge issues.

I think I am going to try widening my slots as suggested by Wynne-R, it does make sense... more space for liquid to enter should mean more opportunities for liquid to come out 'unstuck'.

I wish I could test this right away, unfortunately, the one wheat beer I am making this year is next up so those are not very fun with my current setup. I guess if I widen the slots and brew this Hefeweizen without a stuck sparge, that is a good sign!

 

[Lost]

I bet your crush is too fine. Try making it coarser or get a more consistent mill than a corona. Do you have these problems when you have the grain crushed by a LHBS? You could also try adding rice hulls, if that alleviates the problem then the issue is almost certainly with the crush of the grain.

I used a copper manifold for many years without a stuck sparge, not once. I did drill small holes in mine though, I felt like the slotting compromised the rigidity of the manifold too much.

I would definitely check the crush of the grain before making permanent modifications to the manifold.

 

[barhoc11]

I bet your crush is too fine. Try making it coarser or get a more consistent mill than a corona. Do you have these problems when you have the grain crushed by a LHBS? You could also try adding rice hulls, if that alleviates the problem then the issue is almost certainly with the crush of the grain.

I used a copper manifold for many years without a stuck sparge, not once. I did drill small holes in mine though, I felt like the slotting compromised the rigidity of the manifold too much.

I would definitely check the crush of the grain before making permanent modifications to the manifold.

Here is what I can say...

- I just measured my slots in the copper, 99% of them are less than 1/16th of an inch wide.
- I actually put in 5 handfuls of rice hulls into my last 10 gallon batch and I still got a stuck sparge.
- My crush does not look any finer than what I have seen on the forums, I actually had some of the smaller grains get through uncrushed.

This would make me think my slots are not wide enough, I am reaching this conclusion based on everyone's feedback and is making me want to widen these. Below is a picture of the bottom of my manifold.

 

[smakudwn]

That looks almost exactly like mine except I have the pick up tube in the middle of one of the inner 2 pipes, I have no issues with stuck sparge. Maybe its crush?

 

[barhoc11]

That looks almost exactly like mine except I have the pick up tube in the middle of one of the inner 2 pipes, I have no issues with stuck sparge. Maybe its crush?

What did you use to cut your slots with? I am thinking of widening mine a bit because I now remember I used a dremel bit that is less than 1/16 in wide.

 

[smakudwn]

I used the Dremel disc. They look exactly like yours. Why not run a pound of grain through your mill and post a pic of it? Maybe you are pumping off too fast??

 

[barhoc11]

I used the Dremel disc. They look exactly like yours. Why not run a pound of grain through your mill and post a pic of it? Maybe you are pumping off too fast??

Sure, I can do that a little later and post.

How fast do you run yours out? I normally very slowly open the valve until I am about halfway between closed and open. I am curious to how you normally do this so please let me know. Thanks

 

[smakudwn]

That is what I do also. I rarely have my full open.

 

[Stirs]

I deal with filtration systems in my line of work. The manifold system you've built is very similar to ones I have in some large sand filters. Your discharge tube is higher than your manifold and I'm betting it's higher than your outlet hose. It's possible that it's getting airbound. Once a small amount of liquid passes through to the outlet an air bubble gets trapped in the discharge tube and binds the fluids from leaving the tank even though there is much more liquid above the outlet height. Try drilling a hole in the top of the discharge tube. It should vent the air out. I'd do it next to the outlet, that way you can tilt it towards the outlet when you get down to the last inch or so of sweet. Once it's above the liquid level you it will not drain anyway. If you could turn the tee and the 45 around and go straight to the outlet you could probably avoid getting airbound and be able to tilt it to get that last inch or so more smoothly. Hope this helps.

 

[brewkinger]

That is what I do also. I rarely have my full open.

I never get mine all the way open. I start the flow very slowly and only after I have vorlaufed about a gallon do I open it slightly less than half way.
It is kind of a batch-fly sparge hybrid technique that I usually try to complete the first runnings of about 2-2.5 gallons in around 20 minutes or more.

You are jogging my memory though, when I used to have the copper manifold in my tun, the stuck sparges were more common for me when I used to be in a bigger hurry (or had a beer or two while brewing and discovered that I was more prone to mistakes)

 

[smakudwn]

Interesting about the air bubble. I have a 90 coming off the T but since its all not soldered together I just push it to one side so its lower than the outlet..........hope that makes sense.

 

[barhoc11]

I deal with filtration systems in my line of work. The manifold system you've built is very similar to ones I have in some large sand filters. Your discharge tube is higher than your manifold and I'm betting it's higher than your outlet hose. It's possible that it's getting airbound. Once a small amount of liquid passes through to the outlet an air bubble gets trapped in the discharge tube and binds the fluids from leaving the tank even though there is much more liquid above the outlet height. Try drilling a hole in the top of the discharge tube. It should vent the air out. I'd do it next to the outlet, that way you can tilt it towards the outlet when you get down to the last inch or so of sweet. Once it's above the liquid level you it will not drain anyway. If you could turn the tee and the 45 around and go straight to the outlet you could probably avoid getting airbound and be able to tilt it to get that last inch or so more smoothly. Hope this helps.

Interesting idea, I do notice that when i start to get a stuck sparge, I get a lot of bubbles in my drain tube and then the flow gradually trickles to nothing.

I appreciate your comment but is there a way you can summarize what the issue I have might be so an idiot like myself can understand? I do not get how air could be getting into the flow as you mention. Also, this does not happen when I have no grain in the MLT, does that matter?

 

[Stirs]

Interesting idea, I do notice that when i start to get a stuck sparge, I get a lot of bubbles in my drain tube and then the flow gradually trickles to nothing.

I appreciate your comment but is there a way you can summarize what the issue I have might be so an idiot like myself can understand? I do not get how air could be getting into the flow as you mention. Also, this does not happen when I have no grain in the MLT, does that matter?

lol, most all liquids have a certain amount of dissolved oxygen in it that can separate and get trapped in the discharge tube. Your tube turns up and then back down. I may be wrong, but if you vent it at the top or shorten the tube between the 45 and the outlet, it may keep it from sticking. Turning the 45 around and going straight to the outlet would allow you to drain that last inch of sweet by tilting it. As it is, you can't tilt it towards the outlet, because you are drawing from the opposite side.

 

[rustym]

Mine is almost like yours and I've never had a stuck sparge.


I used a dremel to cut the slots. I used a braid before this and hated it. I would say your crush is the culprit.

 

[dan6310]

When I had my manifold, I would get stuck sparges If I had my valve set at 1/2 way while connected to a march pump. 1/4 turn was ideal. I switched to a bazooka screen and now I can go 1/2 turn during the mash recirculation with no issues. Come sparge time I still drop it down to 1/4 turn and hit 75-78% efficiency consistently.

 

[swackattack]

Mine is similar but outlet is in the center. Never got stuck. Just a little slow once

 

[govner1]

When I had my manifold, I would get stuck sparges If I had my valve set at 1/2 way while connected to a march pump. 1/4 turn was ideal. I switched to a bazooka screen and now I can go 1/2 turn during the mash recirculation with no issues. Come sparge time I still drop it down to 1/4 turn and hit 75-78% efficiency consistently.

I use a copper manifold in a 7 1/2 gal mash run w/ a center outflow. One thing I found was the need for a few holes on the top(in the corners) to help w/ flow & avoid "airlocks".

 

[barhoc11]

I use a copper manifold in a 7 1/2 gal mash run w/ a center outflow. One thing I found was the need for a few holes on the top(in the corners) to help w/ flow & avoid "airlocks".

Any chance you can give more details on how you added a few holes on the top in the corners?

 

[barhoc11]

Mine is almost like yours and I've never had a stuck sparge.


I used a dremel to cut the slots. I used a braid before this and hated it. I would say your crush is the culprit.

I went ahead and widened my slots to be a little wider like yours, I think this might help.

 

[govner1]

A small drill

 

[barhoc11]

A small drill

Where did you add the holes, any chance you have a picture of this?