Conical processes

[Chris Grubb]

Making the leap to a conical. Spike CF5 should be arriving tomorrow.
Curious as to how everyone handles their fermentation In conicals.

My plan is to transfer from boil kettle to conical. Aerate, pitch yeast, drain off Trub via dump valve after 3-5 days then let sit for another 3-5 days before cold crashing and pressure transfer to my keg.
Does that sound about right? Also, if dry hopping, would you dump trub then add DH during the 3rd day of fermentation and just dump off that trub before kegging or should you dump sooner than that? What if multiple DH additions are added?

 

[couchsending]

Pitch yeast first, then aerate

Dump trub after 12 then maybe 24 hours, no longer

Don’t dry hop during fermentation, unless you like burning money...

Wait 2 days after FG for D-rest. Rest for VDKs, if negative drop temp to 58/60 for two days with head pressure. Harvest yeast and dry hop. Keep between 60 and 63 for 3 days, slowly cool to 35, pull hops and remaining yeast, carbonate if you have the carb stone or transfer to keg to carbonate.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I pitch yeast, aerate using the carb stone, dryhop near the end of fermentation, switch to the co2 manifold and purge with co2. I don't generally harvest yeast so I only do one dump after I've cold crashed right before carbing with the stone. The few times I did dumps every few days I ended up throwing away alot of beer. With said process I get very clear beer into the kegs in about 14days. When the keg kicks there's only the tiniest bit of sediment. I can take a keg to a party and have clear beer right away. Pictured is yoppers Amber ale outta the sample port and a empty keg of Saison. Cheers

 

[Chris Grubb]

How do you aerate through the carb stone? What type of oxygen tank and connection do you use?

 

[Blazinlow86]

I currently use the disposable red tanks from Lowe's with a ball lock gas fitting on it. Eventually I'll probably buy a 5lb of oxygen. Cheers

 

[SanPancho]

I currently use the disposable red tanks from Lowe's with a ball lock gas fitting on it. Eventually I'll probably buy a 5lb of oxygen. Cheers

Got a pic? O2 is reverse thread. Curious how you rigged this up.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Oh sorry for clarification I have the brass disposable oxygen tank regulator that comes in the stainless wand kit. I just removed the wand and connected the ball lock connector instead. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

I aerate through the top of mine using a long wand w/ an aeration stone on it. I don't think it matters much whether you aerate or pitch first--the difference in time is minimal. In fact, a local brewer (real one, not me ) said he pitches WHILE aerating so that the yeast is better mixed in the wort.

I have the carb stone for the Spike conical I'm using, but I have to choose whether I want the sampling port or not since that's generally what space the stone occupies.

I have a TILT hydrometer which I thought might substitute for the sampling port, since it's important with fast fermentation that I know when I'm about halfway attenuated. But lately the TILT has been unreliable so I've had to take a few samples to gauge attenuation.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I aerate through the top of mine using a long wand w/ an aeration stone on it. I don't think it matters much whether you aerate or pitch first--the difference in time is minimal. In fact, a local brewer (real one, not me ) said he pitches WHILE aerating so that the yeast is better mixed in the wort.

I have the carb stone for the Spike conical I'm using, but I have to choose whether I want the sampling port or not since that's generally what space the stone occupies.

I have a TILT hydrometer which I thought might substitute for the sampling port, since it's important with fast fermentation that I know when I'm about halfway attenuated. But lately the TILT has been unreliable so I've had to take a few samples to gauge attenuation.

The spike carb stone is designed to attach to the racking butterfly. I use it that way without any issues and still have the temp/sample ports available. I only pitch my yeast prior to aeration to help mix it up. Cheers

 

[Jaybird]

I must be that 1 guy that still aerates in the BK and as I am going into the conical. I will kettle chill to about 100 deg or so and then transfer to the conical through my spray ball and chill along the way. I pitch yeast and leave it for about 4-5 days (depending on the beer) dump my trub and attach my yeast harvester (if I am going to harvest). Open butterfly and let the yeast finish. Attach my CO2 harvest connect for gas, Crash cool and keg.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Blazinlow86]

Oh and random add on I use a 1/2 barbed tclamp fitting when doing dumps so I can easily aim it into a jar with a hose. Cheers

 

[chieftain]

Pitch yeast first, then aerate

Dump trub after 12 then maybe 24 hours, no longer

Don’t dry hop during fermentation, unless you like burning money...

Wait 2 days after FG for D-rest. Rest for VDKs, if negative drop temp to 58/60 for two days with head pressure. Harvest yeast and dry hop. Keep between 60 and 63 for 3 days, slowly cool to 35, pull hops and remaining yeast, carbonate if you have the carb stone or transfer to keg to carbonate.

How do you minimize or seek to avoid O2 exposure with the dryhop?

 

[Blazinlow86]

How do you minimize or seek to avoid O2 exposure with the dryhop?

Although I know this question isn't directed at myself I'll chime in. While I generally add my dry hops near the end of fermentation (quickly) I also switch to the gas manifold at the same time then purge the headspace using co2. If I'm adding gelitine ill also do it very quickly and immediately purge again with co2. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

Although I know this question isn't directed at myself I'll chime in. While I generally add my dry hops near the end of fermentation (quickly) I also switch to the gas manifold at the same time then purge the headspace using co2. If I'm adding gelitine ill also do it very quickly and immediately purge again with co2. Cheers

I did exactly this process this morning, sans the gelatin. In fact, I also did this: i put the hop screen tube inside a sanitized bread plastic bag, and squirted CO2 inside to purge that as much as I could. I added the hops, did it again.

Opened the top of the fermenter, turned on a low pressure of CO2 through the manifold, dropped in the sanitized and hopefully purged hop tube, and sealed it up.

I've been sealing up the fermenter with approximately 8 or 9 points of gravity to go; the still-fermenting yeast should clean up most if not all of whatever oxygen got into the fermenter.

Then it's a pressure transfer into a purged keg, and allow the beer to condition.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Hmmm I never thought about running the co2 at a low rate while the fermentor is open. Good idea and I'll add it to my process. Thanks

 

[couchsending]

In most professional breweries that still dry hop the old fashion way they’ll run co2 through the CIP arm while the DH port is open to create a positive co2 environment while adding the hops. On my conical I’ve pumped Co2 through the sample valve while dry hopping but also just done it quickly with a funnel through the top TC port then put the transfer manifold back on and purge the head space. I actually want to add a small little ball valve to the domed lid that I can attach Co2 to but I haven’t gotten around to doing it yet. Should be pretty easy though.

In my opinion too much yeast in suspension is much more detrimental to Hop aroma than the tiny amount of O2 exposure you might get by quickly adding through the top TC port.

 

[Nate R]

Great thread here and great comments. Anyone know of any potential issues with by-passing wort chilling?
I have a spike cf5. Figure i purge it, put the hot wort in, purge it again, put the entire conical in my already cold keezer until the wort cools to pitch temp. As long as it is sealed and there is a bit of co2 in the dead space can anyone think of a negative?

Thanks all.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Great thread here and great comments. Anyone know of any potential issues with by-passing wort chilling?
I have a spike cf5. Figure i purge it, put the hot wort in, purge it again, put the entire conical in my already cold keezer until the wort cools to pitch temp. As long as it is sealed and there is a bit of co2 in the dead space can anyone think of a negative?

Thanks all.

Potentially crushing your fermentor if your not careful. Otherwise no it should work

 

[mongoose33]

Potentially crushing your fermentor if your not careful. Otherwise no it should work

Absolutely! Do not seal up your conical with hot liquid in it. It'll create negative pressure and you may crush it.

 

[Nate R]

Absolutely! Do not seal up your conical with hot liquid in it. It'll create negative pressure and you may crush it.

Got it. Even if it is a stainless steel built for 15 psi? With the pressure be that much? Does adding co2 help? Hurt?

 

[mongoose33]

Got it. Even if it is a stainless steel built for 15 psi? With the pressure be that much? Does adding co2 help? Hurt?

I'm pretty sure that Spike says this in some of their documentation, probably the section on CIP cleaning.

As far as being built for 15psi, that's positive pressure, not negative pressure. Perhaps the way to think of it is this: if you have a plastic bottle of pop, there can be a lot of pressure in there with the CO2. But empty that bottle, cap it, and put it in the freezer and see what happens. The bottle will crumple as the gas in the headspace contracts. That bottle is designed for positive pressure, not negative pressure.

You could do this: Just put the blowoff tube on and terminate it in a breadbag you've filled with CO2. Wrap a twist tie around the bag where the tubing goes in it. As the gas contracts, it'll pull CO2 from the breadbag.

Or, as you note, you could add CO2 to 15 psi and let it cool, and my guess is it'll work, i.e., you'll still have positive pressure when the wort has cooled.

 

[Blazinlow86]

If you keep your co2 connected at say 5-10psi with the gas turned on the whole time it should would be ok. Out of curiosity why don't you want to chill first? Cheers

 

[Jaybird]

If you keep your co2 connected at say 5-10psi with the gas turned on the whole time it should would be ok. Out of curiosity why don't you want to chill first? Cheers

There are a lot of people doing the no chill method. I think to save time and water in the brewhouse. I haven't done it myself but I am very curious and honestly it's in the horizon for me to try. I will be adding my ultimate CO2 harvester kit to the conical and keeping gas on it at about 2# or so so as not to implode my conical.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Blazinlow86]

I was always under the impression that doing no chill wasn't so much a preference but was more for people with ground water that's just too warm to be useful. I can't wrap my head around how you can make hoppy stuff without it all coming out overly bitter. Seems even if you compensate by adding your hops at flameout they would all end end like 60min hops. Does it only work for more standard beers with only earlier additions? Cheers

 

[czmkid]

I use an additional 1st dump pre o2 and yeast addition. So I go from the boil kettle and fill my unitanks from the bottom up. Chill them using glycol down to pitching temp. Wait 2 hours and then dump all of the trub and gunk that made it in the tank. Usually it isn’t a lot but chilling with ground water in Texas sucks...glycol on the other hand does not and makes all of the stuff you dont want in your fermenter break out ;o)

 

[Blazinlow86]

I use an additional 1st dump pre o2 and yeast addition. So I go from the boil kettle and fill my unitanks from the bottom up. Chill them using glycol down to pitching temp. Wait 2 hours and then dump all of the trub and gunk that made it in the tank. Usually it isn’t a lot but chilling with ground water in Texas sucks...glycol on the other hand does not and makes all of the stuff you dont want in your fermenter break out ;o)

How long would you say it takes you to get it down below 160-170 using that method? And secondly how do you compensate with your additions? Like if you wanted to make a really flavorful but not bitter pale ale that only used flameout hops? Is it possible? Cheers

 

[chewse]

I use a closed system when moving wort from the BK to the conical. Goes like this: BK-Trub Filter-Pump-Plate Chiller (with in-line stone)-conical. The wort is aerated as it moves from plate chiller into the conical. I pitch the yeast when done.

 

[Nate R]

If you keep your co2 connected at say 5-10psi with the gas turned on the whole time it should would be ok. Out of curiosity why don't you want to chill first? Cheers

I am in California, and Uncle Jerry (our aged govener) really keeps an eye on the water you use. Also if i can eliminate any contact with possible contamination, why not? I.e. put near boiled wort into a closed conical. Cold crash it to temp (since i have an upright freezer i use for fermantation) and then pitch.

I am curious though- i think it is called "cold break" when you chill the just boiled wort correct? Does this have an effect on the wort/hops/flavor?

 

[Blazinlow86]

i attempted to dump the cold break on my first run with the conical but at the very end i ended up short on volume and havent tried again since. i dont think it makes a differance either way. i would caution you this however. i use a upright freezer and have the cf15 doing 18gal batches and it takes a few hours to get down to ale ferm temps after transfering thru the cfc chiller and coming out near 78f. if i was to just pump straight into the conical without the cfc i wouldnt be surprised if it took 2 days to get down to temp. again 18g batches however. just a fyi in case it helps. cheers

 

[Jaybird]

I was always under the impression that doing no chill wasn't so much a preference but was more for people with ground water that's just too warm to be useful. I can't wrap my head around how you can make hoppy stuff without it all coming out overly bitter. Seems even if you compensate by adding your hops at flameout they would all end end like 60min hops. Does it only work for more standard beers with only earlier additions? Cheers

Not sure to be honest. I have not played around with the process yet. But I intend to get into it at least for a few batches.

Cheers
Jay

 

[czmkid]

How long would you say it takes you to get it down below 160-170 using that method? And secondly how do you compensate with your additions? Like if you wanted to make a really flavorful but not bitter pale ale that only used flameout hops? Is it possible? Cheers

I drop it as low as I can with a hydra immersion chiller which in the summer months...March thru October, usually only goes down to 85-84 ish with tap water. Then the glycol takes it to 65 from there quickly. The 2 hours is just to wait for any trub to fall but since I am filling the Ss unitank from the bottom up I don’t worry too much about randomness ending up in there. As far as going from 160 to pitching temps using glycol, I wouldn’t do that or advise anyone else with a glycol system to do so especially with 3-4 other tanks working let alone one. Wouldn’t want to stress out that compressor...especially with it outside on the back covered living space in 100 heat.

Sure you can make a flavorful non bitter pale ale, ipa, iipa no problem with whirlpool additions going into the conical and or tanks. You just have to be able to control temps a little in the kettle and then pinpoint in the fermenter with a high degree of accuracy.

Check out a Hoptomitrist clone from roughtail brewery on homebrewers association...I just brewed it for the first time its pretty amazing.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/roughtail-brewing-co-hoptometrist-double-ipa/

Or....weather ground brewery’s iipa also found on homebrewers association. It goes as far at to tell the end user when to add the hop additions and for how long during the whirlpool a reverse boil hop addition!. Brewed this as well.....

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/weathered-ground-brewery-r-k-double-ipa/

 

[Blazinlow86]

I drop it as low as I can with a hydra immersion chiller which in the summer months...March thru October, usually only goes down to 85-84 ish with tap water. Then the glycol takes it to 65 from there quickly. The 2 hours is just to wait for any trub to fall but since I am filling the Ss unitank from the bottom up I don’t worry too much about randomness ending up in there. As far as going from 160 to pitching temps using glycol, I wouldn’t do that or advise anyone else with a glycol system to do so especially with 3-4 other tanks working let alone one. Wouldn’t want to stress out that compressor...especially with it outside on the back covered living space in 100 heat.

Sure you can make a flavorful non bitter pale ale, ipa, iipa no problem with whirlpool additions going into the conical and or tanks. You just have to be able to control temps a little in the kettle and then pinpoint in the fermenter with a high degree of accuracy.

Check out a Hoptomitrist clone from roughtail brewery on homebrewers association...I just brewed it for the first time its pretty amazing.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/roughtail-brewing-co-hoptometrist-double-ipa/

Or....weather ground brewery’s iipa also found on homebrewers association. It goes as far at to tell the end user when to add the hop additions and for how long during the whirlpool a reverse boil hop addition!. Brewed this as well.....

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/weathered-ground-brewery-r-k-double-ipa/

Sorry to clarify I was talking about no chill brewing and hoppy stuff. I might have mistakenly asked you thinking you were doing no chill.

 

[Luis Mendieta]

So, before finding this thread I dumped yeast yesterday after 5 days of fermentation and with FG reached (apparently). While dumping the yeast I heard 1 heavy bubble going into the conical which probably went through the dump valve. Could that amount of air ruin a batch? its half bbl conical...

 

[mongoose33]

So, before finding this thread I dumped yeast yesterday after 5 days of fermentation and with FG reached (apparently). While dumping the yeast I heard 1 heavy bubble going into the conical which probably went through the dump valve. Could that amount of air ruin a batch? its half bbl conical...

It's not going to ruin it. How much effect it has depends on the type of beer. IPAs are notorious for the hop flavor/aroma oxidizing, which is why the usual prescription is to drink them fresh and drink them fast.

If it's a more malty beer, a single bubble isn't likely to be noticeable.

If you think about it, people have been brewing a long time without having perfect systems to avoid oxygen exposure after fermentation. And they've made beer, often great beer.

 

[Luis Mendieta]

It's not going to ruin it. How much effect it has depends on the type of beer. IPAs are notorious for the hop flavor/aroma oxidizing, which is why the usual prescription is to drink them fresh and drink them fast.

If it's a more malty beer, a single bubble isn't likely to be noticeable.

If you think about it, people have been brewing a long time without having perfect systems to avoid oxygen exposure after fermentation. And they've made beer, often great beer.

thanks mongoose33.... I will do my best to follow Papazian "Relax Dont Worry have a Homebrew"
I think I will implement better practices when handling my wort/beer to avoid any type of contamination such as purging with CO2 whenever I try to dump and dry hop my beers....

 

[mongoose33]

thanks mongoose33.... I will do my best to follow Papazian "Relax Dont Worry have a Homebrew"
I think I will implement better practices when handling my wort/beer to avoid any type of contamination such as purging with CO2 whenever I try to dump and dry hop my beers....

I've followed an approach of always trying to do it better. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not much. The name of the game is to reduce oxygen exposure post-fermentation as much as you can, recognizing you may not be able to be perfect.

If all you have is one bubble of air in your beer's headspace, I'd say that's pretty darned good.

*********

BTW, and not to burst your bubble (sorry ), but if you carb with bottled CO2, that CO2 is almost certainly not pure. It's probably 99.5% pure, which means the other 1/2 percent is....air? And air is....21 percent o2, correct?

When I can, I try to carb in my conical. I can get about 1.5 volumes just from self-carbonation, which means the remainder has to be from bottled CO2. But I've reduced the amount of O2 contamination from the CO2 into my beer by 60 percent doing it that way.

There are LODO brewers who will try to keg their beer when there is still 5 gravity points to go, so as the yeast finishes it carbs the beer with pure CO2. Basically the same as bottle conditioning, except in a keg, and in doing it that way any O2 is consumed by the yeast.

Heck, there are even LODO brewers who are focused on oxygen uptake through the liquid lines in their kegerators or keezers.

I'm not at that level.

 

[Luis Mendieta]

I've followed an approach of always trying to do it better. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not much. The name of the game is to reduce oxygen exposure post-fermentation as much as you can, recognizing you may not be able to be perfect.

If all you have is one bubble of air in your beer's headspace, I'd say that's pretty darned good.

*********

BTW, and not to burst your bubble (sorry ), but if you carb with bottled CO2, that CO2 is almost certainly not pure. It's probably 99.5% pure, which means the other 1/2 percent is....air? And air is....21 percent o2, correct?

When I can, I try to carb in my conical. I can get about 1.5 volumes just from self-carbonation, which means the remainder has to be from bottled CO2. But I've reduced the amount of O2 contamination from the CO2 into my beer by 60 percent doing it that way.

There are LODO brewers who will try to keg their beer when there is still 5 gravity points to go, so as the yeast finishes it carbs the beer with pure CO2. Basically the same as bottle conditioning, except in a keg, and in doing it that way any O2 is consumed by the yeast.

Heck, there are even LODO brewers who are focused on oxygen uptake through the liquid lines in their kegerators or keezers.

I'm not at that level.

I get your point... I made huge upgrade on my homebrew setup from classic BIAB to a 3-kettle system with half bbl conical fermenter and kegging... I am trying to improve batch by batch an step by step ( specially on the cold side) to get my homebrew to the highest quality possible.

 

[Luis Mendieta]

I get your point... I made huge upgrade on my homebrew setup from classic BIAB to a 3-kettle system with half bbl conical fermenter and kegging... I am trying to improve batch by batch an step by step ( specially on the cold side) to get my homebrew to the highest quality possible.

Anyway I know that whenever kegging the beer gets in contact with air so oxidation has already yet I am trying to minimize rookie mistakes on the process (although mastering craft beer it's not quite that possible).

 

[ABI Brewery]

Anyone have a Catalyst I would like to add a sample port to mine but not sure which to get, I have also added a ball valve to the bottom so I can dump trub easier and cleaner, but using it............ just go straight from boil kettle to Catalyst, oxygenate, add yeast, monitor temp, dump trub after fermentation is over then dry hop as needed, then right into keg....thats the best part

 

[mongoose33]

I get your point... I made huge upgrade on my homebrew setup from classic BIAB to a 3-kettle system with half bbl conical fermenter and kegging... I am trying to improve batch by batch an step by step ( specially on the cold side) to get my homebrew to the highest quality possible.

I bought my conical last April; I switched to electric brewing in August/September. I'm still trying to get the system down, as I added a RIMS system for mash temp control as well as a SS counterflow chiller. I'm pumping stuff hither and yon, the mistakes are fewer and less serious.

Even so, I had two interesting mistakes in the batch I brewed Sunday. One was missing the dough-in temp in the mash tun. I preheated the mash tun to offset some of the cooling effect as I added the strike water...but too much. My initial mash temp was 159, which is too high (wanted 152). I got it cooled down, but my efficiency was less than normal by about 5 points.

Then when I was chilling the boiled wort, i thought I had the CF chiller getting me 70 degrees; usually I just recirculate until the BK is down to pitch temp then pump to the fermenter, but I figured since it was 70 and that was my pitch temp, just pump into the fermenter.

Well. Somehow that was a miscalculation, and the wort in my fermenter was 82 degrees. I pitched my starter into that 82-degree wort, and then figured it out. I chilled down to 70, hoping I didn't shock the yeast too much.

Must not have been too bad....I had bubbling 4 hours after pitch, and dropped to 1.015 after 96 hours. I'm sure it'll be good, just maybe not exactly what I was aiming for.

So...if you think you're the only one working through a learning curve, well, you're not.