Confusion from HBS

[Sir Humpsalot]

I was referring to 2 months after primary fermentation completes. Haven't you noticed that your last beer is always the best? That's probably why.

As I think I mentioned in this thread, Pale Ale are a different story. Actually anything with flavor and aroma hops is a different story because as the beer sits in secondary, you start losing those qualities so it is a tradeoff.

As for commercial beers, most of it doesn't get consumed at 4 weeks. It sits in a distributors warehouse, then on a store shelf so it gets that extra aging time and probably much much more. In the case of the big corporations that filter their beer, this doesn't apply since the beer is basically sterilized.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Here is a little different question that I haven't seen the answer to yet.
There seems to always be some yeast sediment on the bottom of the bottle. Comercial beer doesn't have that though. Is there a way to eliminate it from our home brews?

Commercial beer like Budweiser doesn't have it because they filter their beer and force-carbonate. Commercial beers like Sierra Nevada don't seem to have it because they wait for, or induce, more of the yeast to fall out of suspension before bottling.

If you are getting a ton of yeast in the glass, try gelatin a few days or a week before siphoning or wait an extra week or two.

 

[unionrdr]

If I waited for my bottled PA,APA,IPA's to sit in the bottles for two months,the hop flavors would be gone. They start to dissipate at about 7 weeks or so. Now my dark ale/whiskely ale,& Burton ale were def better at a couple months. But big/darker beers are like that. Not average gravity ales that don't have off flavors.Period. anything else is a big load...

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

If I waited for my bottled PA,APA,IPA's to sit in the bottles for two months,the hop flavors would be gone. They start to dissipate at about 7 weeks or so. Now my dark ale/whiskely ale,& Burton ale were def better at a couple months. But big/darker beers are like that. Not average gravity ales that don't have off flavors.Period. anything else is a big load...

Well if you think your regular ales taste better at 4 or 6 weeks than 8, more power to you.

I have already said twice that there is a trade off when it comes to hoppy beers so it is cool that you are now repeating my wisdom.

 

[Starrider]

I am enjoying the banter on this subject. If nothing else, it sounds like it comes down to preference. Since I seem to prefer the lighter beers, I shouldn't have to leave them so long. I did notice last night though as I was enjoying one of the last bottles of my first batch which was a Western Pale Ale (2gal Mr. Beer), that it most certainly tasted better than the first bottles.

I don't think the yeast in the bottom of the bottles is too bad, again, not much to compare to though. I just have to carefully pour it into a glass so as not to disturb the sediment. It also means I can't drink straigt from the bottle which will make it more difficult at parties and such. How do you do the geletin trick? How much do you add and do you just sprinkle it on top and let it gel and sink to the bottom? If nothing else, that might be helpful when getting close to the bottom that I am not siphoning yeast off the bottom of the pail.

I am hoping to stop by the HBS on the way home and get supplies for next batch. I think I want to try the same thing again, Mexican Cerveza, so I can change up and use malt or LME instead of sugar. What I am realizing now though is that I wont be able to compare the batches side by side because one of them will have had 2~3 weeks more aging time. I may have to split the batch and do part with sugar and the other with LME so they brew at the same time. That being the case, maybe I will try an IPA or something instead. Decisions, Decisions. I can never make up my mind. In order to get the 4~8 weeks like everyone is discussing, I definitely need to get another one going though or I wont have any for Christmas festivities.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I wouldn't even say it comes down to preference. It comes down to a balance of several variables. Some hop heads will want to drink sooner and preserve more hoppiness, some more balanced drinkers will look for the best balance between hoppiness and maturity, still others will prefer to let the hops diminish in the bottle. But any reasonable taster will be able to see the points where one factor surpasses the next and make an educated decision as to what is generally "best"... although people with different tastes will be free to disagree. IMO those people, if they have any sophistication to their palate should recognize their preference for what it is and say, "I prefer it this way, BUT... this other way may be better if..."

To use an analogy... I prefer to hit baseballs with aluminum baseball bats BUT I recognize that wood bats level the playing field, discourage a technological race in a traditional game, and I appreciate the crack of a ball against a wooden bat more than the ping of aluminum. As a hitter, I can still prefer aluminum, but I can recognize the factors that might make my opinion less than optimal for others with a different perspective. In general, I still say 1 month for every % ABV over 3 is a good guideline. Tweak it as you wish, based on your preference and the style.

And yes.. you will have to brew more to get adequate age on your brews. Poor, poor you. What a terrible situation to be in.

As for gelatin, I boil a cup of water in the microwave, add 1 Tbsp gelatin after it has cooled for just a couple of minutes (you still want it to sanitize the gelatin, but boiling/hot water will denature it... stir until dissolved, add to 5 gallons of beer.

 

[unionrdr]

Not to argue or blow my own horn,but my method is basically a good balance between full flavors of hops & malts used. Some ales that are darker or more malt centric can sit longer at room temp without much,if any degredation of flavor. It's not a matter of preferrence,but what's best for the style of beer in question. As brewers,we have to be flexible in regard to the style in question. Not just think,"the longer I let this sit,the better it'll be". Such is not always the case,but varies greatly with style & gravity.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Not to argue or blow my own horn,but my method is basically a good balance between full flavors of hops & malts used. Some ales that are darker or more malt centric can sit longer at room temp without much,if any degredation of flavor. It's not a matter of preferrence,but what's best for the style of beer in question. As brewers,we have to be flexible in regard to the style in question. Not just think,"the longer I let this sit,the better it'll be". Such is not always the case,but varies greatly with style & gravity.

Glad you have come around to agreeing with me.

Although it doesn't sound like you have had enough experience with high gravity beers (above 10% or so) to have really noticed a pattern.

 

[unionrdr]

Haven't changed my mind at all. I think some folks just enjoy a good argument. I just tried to think of a more phylosophical way to express my beliefs. Look at all the replies I've made in this thread. I've been saying basically that hoppy styles can't sit a couple of months & be even better. Because all you'll have left at that point is whatever bittering remains from that addition.
Not so with malt forward styles. They have little bittering & flavor additions,since the malt is the star in those styles. They can be more forgiving with regard to conditioning times.
Sometimes,you have to come up with a way to express a belief in a way another can readilly understand. This seems to be one of those times.

 

[Starrider]

I love a good argument too. I love where you guys are going with this. Both have indicated that preference comes into play and while time will have an affect on the overall taste and hoppiness, the style of beer should be the greater factor. You don't need to alter the time to change the taste, alter the style and make it true to the style. As home brewers, we still have the ability and option to taylor to our own preferences. Otherwise, why home brew?
Am I getting the gist of what you guys have been saying?

Yes, poor, poor me to have to brew more!!!! You don't know my wife.
I can see this hobby getting out of control real fast. At least there is a little trade off. If I am making my own, I am not buying it in the store. And, so far, bottle for bottle, the home brew has been cheaper. This of course is not including investiment in equipment which will pay for itself in time.

How do you get a beer much past 5%? I see you talking about going up to 10% & 12% (wine territory) but my hydrometer bottoms out just below 1.000. Do you just start with a higher OG and let it ferment longer or is there more to it than that?

 

[unionrdr]

I'm not really into big,heavy drink one & fall over beers myself. But I did come up with a recipe for the old #3 Burton ale from the 1890's that sounded good. Came out real well at 6.8%. Def strong ale territory. You basically use a lot more malt (grains,extracts,etc) to get a high OG,like 1.070+ roughly. Your FG will be correspondingly higher as well. Look in the recipe section for some examples of high gravity ales.

 

[unionrdr]

Glad you have come around to agreeing with me.

Although it doesn't sound like you have had enough experience with high gravity beers (above 10% or so) to have really noticed a pattern.

I've brewed enough beer to notice different patterns in aromas,flavor complexities, brewing processes vs results...that sort of thing. I have one big beer recipe from the 1890's that I like. I'm not real big on high gravity,high alcohol beers for the sake of big alcohol,or bragging rights. I also don't have a pedestal to be knocked off of,which is the vibe I've been getting. I just made my opinions on that long conditioning time that I've found to be otherwise. That's all...

 

[Starrider]

That's what I love about this forum. It would take me years to gain that kind of knowledge and experience but here I get to ask you "experts" how it is done and save some time.
I'm not real big on high gravity beers either and high alcohol would only be for the bragging right to say that I made one. I am looking into smaller bottles or kegging because I am finding 16 and 20oz bottle to be too big. I will generally only have one beer in the evening and 20 oz is more like two. With 12 oz bottles, I always have the option of having another if I want. Kegging would give me ulitmate flexibility but also a greater investiment in equipment. Maybe farther down the road.
Is it possible to re-use twist off bottles? I have a capper and plenty of caps, just not sure if they would hold sufficiently. I was eye-balling some 8oz coke bottles to reuse for beer but they had twist off caps. Extra work for such small bottles but could be a good suppliment for the larger bottles.

 

[unionrdr]

Twist offs are hit-n-miss on sealing. Plus the glass is thinner. And I liked the blue bud light platinum bottles till I found they were twisties.
And humpsalot,I like a phylosophical argument once in a while.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I also don't have a pedestal to be knocked off of,which is the vibe I've been getting.

Not trying to knock you down. You are right that you can drink a 5% beer sooner than 8 weeks, and many may even peak a little sooner than that (probably not by much unless it's hop-bursted or a hefeweizen). But I am saying that having brewed several beers at every percentage between 3% and 12%, with some as low as 2% and others as high as 18%, certain trends and generalities start to become pretty clear. Bigger beer = Longer aging. As a general rule, 1 month per ABV over 3 works pretty well. I think it is the closest anyone will come to a simple across the board rule.

But if all you brew is in the 5-6% range, you will never see how that rule applies. To use another analogy, you are brewing in a narrow range, so you are kinda like missing the forest amongst the trees...

I understand why people think most beers should be around 5-6% but I really encourage brewers to go beyond that in both directions. My house hefeweizen is 3.8%ABV. It is drinkable in 2-3 weeks. And next year I might bring it down to 3.6%. As homebrewers we have almost complete flexibility. It is a shame to limit yourself to a narrow range... And I am not suggesting that you necessarily must go higher.

 

[Starrider]

I bought my fixins for the next batch. It is a Muntons Canadian Style Ale kit and I also got some DME. I am seriously thinking about splitting the kit so I can make part of it with the DME and the other part with sugar. The kit says to use sugar but all the recommendations I have seen say to use malt or corn sugar. I figure in order to really understand what the difference is, I need to make it both ways at the same time so they ferment under the same conditions and for the same amount of time etc. Then I can do a side by side taste test and see what difference the DME makes.
My plan is to use my MR. Beer keg and do 2 gal with sugar and the 4 gal balance with DME. I just have to figure out how to accurately divide the LME from the kit and the yeast. I think my scale should work fine for the LME and DME just not sure yet on how to do the yeast. My scale is not accurate enough for the yeast so will probably have to use some small measuring spoons or the like. Planning to batch them up after work tonight.

 

[unionrdr]

It might be easier to divide it into two 3 gallon batches. Easier to split the extract,etc that way. Otherwise,with 3x2=6,two thirds for the 4G batch,1/3 for the 2 gallon should be pretty close at least.
And I've just been caught up in experimenting with two different yeasts & various hops in my APA/PA's to see which I like best. I've had some below 5%,another nearly 7%. Yes,it sounds like a narrow range,but some of the dark or higher gravity beers take some extra time to condition. The two months from BK to glass suits me just fine. Beers that take a year or more reminf me of my wine making days. I got tired of having to wait at least a year for the wines to condition to where they were ready to drink.

 

[Starrider]

It would definitely be easier to cut in half but I only have one ale pail and a mr. Beer fermenter which is only 2 gallons. That is why the funny ratio.

 

[MarcusKillion]

that kit makes 6 gallons 23 liters . It also sucks bad . first mistake was picking up that can . Let it sit in bottle for a few months to make it taste better.
Never use 2.2 pounds of sugar . It thins the beer out but does add in ABV . Use DME or LME I use DME and use 1 pound corn sugar if I want to bump up ABV a bit more . I use dark since it adds a bit more flavor .

Okay I love these kits . Just pour the can in a fermenting bucket . Boil about 3 3/4 quarts of water . pour the water in the bucket and stir up the stuff. Then pour in cold water to get 6 gallons and you will be right at your SG . cool it down to 70 degrees and dump in yeast , rehydrate first . cap it and air lock it and wait one week and bottle it and wait for two months if you want it to taste better.
If you make a wort then use that for the boiling water .

 

[unionrdr]

1 week primary then bottle with a can & kilo kit? Never had one hit Fg & settle out clear that fast.

 

[MarcusKillion]

1 week primary then bottle with a can & kilo kit? Never had one hit Fg & settle out clear that fast.

not saying you can not wait longer but I think it does not matter much . Sometimes I wait 2 weeks just to let things settle out if I used grains . Only difference I can see is you may get a bit more trub in the bottom of your bottle depending on the type of beer . the no boil kits do not have much of this problem as they have already been settled out . How ever the trub is very thin and will mix up in your beer if you disturb it much by moving the bucket around roughly or sticking in your siphon tube too far . " Siphon carefully " . I have bottled beers after 4 days several times .
I do usually wait 3 weeks for carbonation to test and then a month more for conditioning to make them taste real good unless they just taste good already .
I do condition my bottles in the same room and temp , usually about 72 degrees for 3 weeks and then move them to a cooler room or sometimes warmer and then back .

 

[unionrdr]

I leave the boxed bottles in the warmest room in the house. I let my beers settle out clear or slightly misty in primary. I have spigots on both FV's,& the trub level is always below that & compacted well.
I get clear beer into the bottling bucket. Thus very little trub in the bottles. It's easier to pour off more beer that way.

 

[MarcusKillion]

I tend to get a bit more trub sometimes because I use two packs of yeast. I also have one primary bucket with a spigot and a couple 5 gallon with spigot . I do not use secondary much .
I am brewing some muntons pilsner and canadian . I am going to leave the pilsner in primary two weeks and the Canadian I will put one gallon in a gallon jug and dry hop in a bit of fuggles and the rest of 5 gallons I will put in secondary and dry hop in cascade or saaz .

Oh , my fermentation room is usually 72 to 74 degrees so I get fast fermentations but probably would not be good for some beers like the pilsner or canadian which I have been trying to keep at 70 or less . But usually I do dark ales like nut brown so it really does not make any difference . Sometimes I bottle in 4 days .