confused over german HB advice vs american HB techniques

[Braumeise]

Hi Braumeise,

You've got lots of good info here, so I'll just add a few thoughts:

I would applaud your determination to make things from scratch at every stage, and recognize a German desire to do things the "authentic" way (my wife is German - we debate this often).

ha! so you are also familiar with that special kind of unwillingness that comes with FEMALE German stubbornness...

I wouldn't necessarily say that you must use a kit, but extract (and some hop pellets, and an appropriate liquid yeast) rather than grain would be a good choice, as would starting with a hefeweizen if that's a style you also enjoy.

I truly enjoy the Iclandic white Ale from Einstök so I thought that was something a litle bit easier to start with...
I kept thinking about the comparison to drawing/painting... you learn the basics first: basic figures, shades and distances and you learn to master traditional painting before you go out and experiment with expressionism etc.

I guess all I need to figure out now is how to translate that process to brewing.... and my Lager shall be my "master the traditional style"... so all I need to figure out is what are the basic figures, the distances and shades... and then start from there.

It seems that most people starting out on brewing focus a lot on recipe and ingredients, whereas I would suggest that more experienced brewers tend to place a lot more emphasis on the process itself as being the heart of brewing. There's not a huge difference between the recipes used in many different beers (especially in the wheat or pale lager families), but subtle procedural points make big differences. There are award-winning beers made with extracts, and poor beers made with all grain, fresh hops, etc., etc. The process is actually probably more than 80% of good brewing.

Without having any idea of what I am getting myself into that was my first intuition. Maybe that is in the German genes since purity laws leave you little space with recipes BUT you have all the freedom to create a new method for the process.

I would suggest that you focus on getting prepared to have a strong/healthy fermentation (IE - well-oxygenated, good temperature control, appropriate amount of healthy yeast), and get comfortable dealing with the time, space, and weight challenges involved in a brewday. It's a different animal than bread - bread isn't heavy, isn't hard to cool, or to move, and is generally made with flour you bought already milled and ready to use. If that's not a "cheat" in baking, then extract isn't a "cheat" in brewing.

Gotcha!
As I said, I was going to practice with just water to figure out a "game plan".
I do believe the so called german efficiency stems from making a good plan before you even touch anything that could become a problem.

At the beginning, you don't want to have 30-40 possible reasons why you didn't get the result you were hoping for - 5-10 would be lots! If you use all grain, then water chemistry isn't a big deal, unless you live in an area with water that is an issue, or choose to do BIAB, in which case tannins can be more of an issue, especially in a lighter beer. Respectfully, if your experience is at all like mine, you probably won't initially know precisely how to describe unintended flavours and results, and will have to rely on trial and error to isolate causes. This same dynamic is true at a number of levels - there are many questions to answer, and starting with only a few things mean that you have a fighting chance of knowing where to start solving problems if you aren't totally happy with the results. (Extract basically means you can cut out a few major possible areas of difficulty, and yeast provides an awful lot of the flavour in hefeweizens, anyway, so it's not a big compromise.)

I am taking all you said seriously into consideration. Once I have made up my mind on how to start you will all witness this historic moment and maybe be able to say: see... we told you
Maybe not...

for now I have tons of very good advise here and very useful information to take into account. Once all the information is processed and has settled I need to follow my intuition. Thats probably a very female way of saying: I will then still not know what I am doing but I am hoping for it to be the right thing

Finally - reading and reading, and reading is a great start, but there's some element of actually physically coordinating brewing in your space and with your equipment that books won't necessarily prepare you for, but that can be a big factor when you've been brewing for four or five hours, and have 23L of hot liquid that then has to be cooled, transfered, oxygenated, moved into a fermenting space, and inoculated with yeast without doing anything wrong. Mistakes at the beginning of the process are actually probably less critical than mistakes at the end, and mental fatigue can be a factor (even if no one wants to admit it). Picking something less complicated to make lets you focus on the essential first steps. If you had never driven a car, and read everything on the internet about how to drive, you would probably be ready to practice driving around an empty parking lot. You wouldn't be ready for the autobahn, though. The way you use the car may be the same, but one is too complicated to reliably do right the first time.

No such thing as mental fatigue in Germany!
But I know what you mean and that's why I am going to practice without ingredients. With the reading and learning theoretically you preach to the converted with me. If I really want something that is my usual approach ... it eliminates a lot of possible failure and dealing with failure is so much worse than being patient and read and learn FIRST

In any event - happy brewing, and good luck!

Mille Grazie!

I'll keep you all posted!

 

[botigol]

Deleted...I fell behind the posts and my comment was covered.

 

[jrgtr42]

With the danger of repeating all that has been said...
Each of the techniques you mentioned above are all truly valid, historical methods of brewing. A few hundred years ago, there wasn't as much information around. Certainly no internet, and no mass produced books to tell people how to brew. For that matter, you wouldn't necessarily know what the guy more than a few miles away was doing to make his beer different than yours.
So, a lot of different methods of brewing evolved, to work with the local conditions and local ingredients.
I am no historian, or expert (there are others here and on other forums that can explain things better) but in a nutshell:
Step brewing developed to handle malts that were not as modified in the malting process as they are now. Todays barley malts have plenty of enzymes to convert the starches to sugars relatively easily. back when, it wasn't as easy, so the step mash developed over time to be able to unravel and use the enzymes and starches. (again, this is a a very loose nutshell. There are some excellent books that can explain this far better than I)
Chilling: we think generally that quicker is better, but as long as the wort is sealed from air (and therefore contaminents) a "no chill" or slow chill method is fine.
Priming: Using reserved wort (especially if it is pitched separately and added to the fermented beer) is known as krausening. It's just another method of carbonating beer.
Personally I don't ferment open; my basement has enough crap and occasionally bugs flying around that I don't trust it. Also, if the area has drafts, it will disturb the blanket of CO2 that forms and protects the fermenting beer from oxidation. I know of several breweries that do use open fermenters, they (with the exception of ones designed for sour beers) are in sealed rooms with filtered air ensuring nothing gets in that they don't want.
In the homebrewing world, secondaries are falling out of favor, especially with ales. There is nothing wrong with using one, but most of the reasons to do so are not really applicable to the homebrew volumes. Exceptions are for bulk aging, such as on wood or fruit, and souring.
Disadvantages of doing it include risks of oxidation and contamintation. Why add additional work that really isn't needed (caveat: when doing lagers, secondary is a useful technique, when you need to chill it down to near freezing for a few weeks)
For a first beer, I would recommend something relatively easy, like a pale ale. Lagers take some additional techniques and equipment, not to mention time.
How many books? Personlly I recommend 2 especially: John Palmer's How to Brew, and Charlie Papazian's Complete Joy of Homebrewing. Palmer is more by the numbers, and gets a lot more into the science and math of brewing, whereas Papazian is more of a feel guy, basically, do whatever, as long as basic sanitation is on, you'll end up with beer. "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" is his mantra.
And don't completely discount extract; there isn't anything wrong with it, many award winning beers have been made with extract. IMO, using extract for the first couple just negates a few extra steps that can go wrong when there's so much you will be worrying about anyways.
Hwoever, for a first time, all grain recipe, Try something like this:
Simple pale ale
10 LBs 2-row pale malt
1.0 LB Crystal 20
Mash at 152 degrees f 1 hour
add boiling water to mash out at 168 degrees for 15 minutes
drain and sparge with 170 degree water
target roughly 6.5 gallons into kettle
60 min boil
1oz Cascade hops 60min
1oz Cascade hops 10min
1oz Cascade hops 5min.
pitch White Labs WLP001 / Wyeast 1056 / Safale US-05 yeast
ferement mid-60s for min 2 weeks or until done (I personally check gravity at 2.5 weeks, then again at 3 weeks, targeting bottling for then [I find I get better beer leaving it the extra week. YMMV])
prime with ~4 oz corn sugar dissolved in 1cup boiling water.
let carbonate 2 - 3 weeks.
Enjoy.

 

[Cyclman]

Lots of good advice here. Braukaiser's site is a godsend to lager brewers. Spend lots of time on it.

I would recommend strongly you start with BIAB brewing, 2.5G batches. With smaller batches, you can learn in a way that mistakes cost less. With lagers, it is less volume to temperature control. I have done some wonderful lagers, am a huge fan, here are my recommendations. Start with a single temp mash- with the highly modified grain today, step mashes / decoctions are less necessary. When you have made a few great brews, I highly recommend decoction, it's lots of work but lots of fun, and while one can debate the qualitative differences, brewers love to play, or we would just buy beer from a local brewery! Second, get an oxygen stone / injector, good oxygenation has a huge impact with lager fermentation. Third, is, of course, a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. This could be a bucket for your fermenter with water and frozen water bottles (my first lager was made this way, lots of switching out of water bottles but it came out great). It could be a chest freezer with a temp controller. Finally, lager in the bottle. It's easier to keep bottles at low temps than a carboy or bucket (unless you have a temp controlled freezer), and works just fine. You'll have more yeast and sediment at the bottom of the bottle, just make sure you don't pour it into your glass. Especially with BIAB, I don't think all-grain is that unreachable. Yes, it adds complication, and hence risk, but with small batches, that's not such an issue. Good luck, ask lots of good questions, and soon you'll be drinking wonderful homebrewed lagers. If you ever get to Denver, we have Prost brewing, absolutely fantastic. Welcome to the group

 

[Braumeise]

So... I have spent my day off in the HBT Forum and the barn... nice balancing out things...

Thank you guys so much, you are awesome!
I wanted to do a horse training lecture in Colorado---- it is on my "bucket list" since two years now. so if I end up anywhere near you, I will for sure visit!

Lots of good advice here. Braukaiser's site is a godsend to lager brewers. Spend lots of time on it.

I did already and will do too great information there. Thanks for the link.

I would recommend strongly you start with BIAB brewing, 2.5G batches. With smaller batches, you can learn in a way that mistakes cost less. With lagers, it is less volume to temperature control. I have done some wonderful lagers, am a huge fan, here are my recommendations. Start with a single temp mash- with the highly modified grain today, step mashes / decoctions are less necessary. When you have made a few great brews, I highly recommend decoction, it's lots of work but lots of fun, and while one can debate the qualitative differences, brewers love to play, or we would just buy beer from a local brewery!

I can't buy Augustiner anywhere here only the Edelstoff and that is just not the "Helles"...

Although it serves my purpose well that all of you guys are so enthusiastic and dedicated.
I very highly appreciate all the priceless information I am given here.
*very grateful!

And it should come as no surprise that my biggest worry apart from the very different water in Munich was my future fermentation chamber.
It is only now after talking to you guys here that my worries have exploded exponentially !!!
In the beginning I thought - this is not rocket science and even if it was, I was never afraid of chemistry, math, physics, numbers and equations in general...

Now... well... now I think I need more time to learn and read... and eliminate possible chaos....

Second, get an oxygen stone / injector, good oxygenation has a huge impact with lager fermentation.

I have to look into that. Thanks... I planed on "beating" my wort with a 24" professional french whip for restaurant purposes...
After all I can foam milk and make mouse with a french whip and I whip my cream by hand not with a electrical powered device (if that counts as a helpful skill)

Third, is, of course, a temperature controlled fermentation chamber. This could be a bucket for your fermenter with water and frozen water bottles (my first lager was made this way, lots of switching out of water bottles but it came out great). It could be a chest freezer with a temp controller. Finally, lager in the bottle. It's easier to keep bottles at low temps than a carboy or bucket (unless you have a temp controlled freezer), and works just fine.

see above... thoughts of my future DIY fermentation "Chamber" are my hugest issue.
I am used to lifting heavy stuff but I have my doubts that I will perform very well with a chest freezer, even if I get handles for the carboys. I might then have to do it in a bucket although I have the "plastic versus Glass" issue then and I would prefer glass.

that will take thorough research before I buy anything and before I have that I will not brew anything...

You'll have more yeast and sediment at the bottom of the bottle, just make sure you don't pour it into your glass. Especially with BIAB, I don't think all-grain is that unreachable. Yes, it adds complication, and hence risk, but with small batches, that's not such an issue. Good luck, ask lots of good questions, and soon you'll be drinking wonderful homebrewed lagers. If you ever get to Denver, we have Prost brewing, absolutely fantastic. Welcome to the group

Thanks!
and I will let you know for sure, when my horse training trip finally takes place

I'll keep you posted!

 

[Cyclman]

I have to look into that. Thanks... I planed on "beating" my wort with a 24" professional french whip for restaurant purposes...

see above... thoughts of my future DIY fermentation "Chamber" are my hugest issue.
I am used to lifting heavy stuff but I have my doubts that I will perform very well with a chest freezer, even if I get handles for the carboys. I might then have to do it in a bucket although I have the "plastic versus Glass" issue then and I would prefer glass.

O2 injection brings the oxygen levels in your wort much higher than room air can, and yeast needs oxygen to effectively reproduce- $50 well spent for lagers! For lifting stuff, a brew hauler is great, and I have a Carboy Cover, which works great to lift full carboys. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LE1R61K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Braumeise]

With the danger of repeating all that has been said...

no worries... you are not
and even if... I am at a stage where it doesn't hurt to read stuff twice or even more times...

Each of the techniques you mentioned above are all truly valid, historical methods of brewing. A few hundred years ago, there wasn't as much information around. Certainly no internet, and no mass produced books to tell people how to brew. For that matter, you wouldn't necessarily know what the guy more than a few miles away was doing to make his beer different than yours.

In most cases he probably just had the better water or was closer to a bakery... (no yeast adding in early German brewing!)
And then the sense for engineering kicks in which drives you to refine the known methods.... right now I am not sure if I am blessed with that or cursed

So, a lot of different methods of brewing evolved, to work with the local conditions and local ingredients.

And this makes it so very complicated for me atm because my local conditions don't exactly call for Munich lager

I am no historian, or expert (there are others here and on other forums that can explain things better) but in a nutshell:
Step brewing developed to handle malts that were not as modified in the malting process as they are now. Todays barley malts have plenty of enzymes to convert the starches to sugars relatively easily. back when, it wasn't as easy, so the step mash developed over time to be able to unravel and use the enzymes and starches. (again, this is a a very loose nutshell. There are some excellent books that can explain this far better than I)

That helps a lot, thank you!
makes me feel much better about mashing everything together in a cooler to start my endeavor.

Chilling: we think generally that quicker is better, but as long as the wort is sealed from air (and therefore contaminents) a "no chill" or slow chill method is fine.

Thats what I got from palmers book - quicker is better.
Yet, it seems to work to do it slow.

Priming: Using reserved wort (especially if it is pitched separately and added to the fermented beer) is known as krausening. It's just another method of carbonating beer.
Personally I don't ferment open; my basement has enough crap and occasionally bugs flying around that I don't trust it. Also, if the area has drafts, it will disturb the blanket of CO2 that forms and protects the fermenting beer from oxidation. I know of several breweries that do use open fermenters, they (with the exception of ones designed for sour beers) are in sealed rooms with filtered air ensuring nothing gets in that they don't want.

I'll trust the sealed method for now and will experiment with open fermenting later...

In the homebrewing world, secondaries are falling out of favor, especially with ales. There is nothing wrong with using one, but most of the reasons to do so are not really applicable to the homebrew volumes. Exceptions are for bulk aging, such as on wood or fruit, and souring.

merci!

Disadvantages of doing it include risks of oxidation and contamintation. Why add additional work that really isn't needed (caveat: when doing lagers, secondary is a useful technique, when you need to chill it down to near freezing for a few weeks)

and again, thanks!

For a first beer, I would recommend something relatively easy, like a pale ale. Lagers take some additional techniques and equipment, not to mention time.
How many books? Personlly I recommend 2 especially: John Palmer's How to Brew, and Charlie Papazian's Complete Joy of Homebrewing. Palmer is more by the numbers, and gets a lot more into the science and math of brewing, whereas Papazian is more of a feel guy, basically, do whatever, as long as basic sanitation is on, you'll end up with beer. "relax, don't worry, have a homebrew" is his mantra.

will read that - sounds likable
Does a white ale count as easy?

I would aim to get as close to Einstök white Ale if possible
and repeat until I find it close enough to be called drinkable...

And don't completely discount extract; there isn't anything wrong with it, many award winning beers have been made with extract. IMO, using extract for the first couple just negates a few extra steps that can go wrong when there's so much you will be worrying about anyways.

You Guys are really slowly breaching my walls of pride and stubborn refusal...
I look into extract brewing and see if that can get me anywhere near Einstöck...

Hwoever, for a first time, all grain recipe, Try something like this:
Simple pale ale
10 LBs 2-row pale malt
1.0 LB Crystal 20
Mash at 152 degrees f 1 hour
add boiling water to mash out at 168 degrees for 15 minutes
drain and sparge with 170 degree water
target roughly 6.5 gallons into kettle
60 min boil
1oz Cascade hops 60min
1oz Cascade hops 10min
1oz Cascade hops 5min.
pitch White Labs WLP001 / Wyeast 1056 / Safale US-05 yeast
ferement mid-60s for min 2 weeks or until done (I personally check gravity at 2.5 weeks, then again at 3 weeks, targeting bottling for then [I find I get better beer leaving it the extra week. YMMV])
prime with ~4 oz corn sugar dissolved in 1cup boiling water.
let carbonate 2 - 3 weeks.
Enjoy.

Thank you!
I will come back to this... and let you know if it came out at all drinkable

you guys are really awesome!

 

[Braumeise]

O2 injection brings the oxygen levels in your wort much higher than room air can, and yeast needs oxygen to effectively reproduce- $50 well spent for lagers! For lifting stuff, a brew hauler is great, and I have a Carboy Cover, which works great to lift full carboys. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LE1R61K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

that cover is cool! I guess I have to find some one near me with a chest freezer who will let my try to lift a full carboy in and out. After all I am not tall. Will very much depend on the height of the possible freezer.

Also space will become an issue - this all needs a thorough plan and lots of spread sheets

 

[doug293cz]

While glass is the easiest to clean and sanitize, and is also impermeable to oxygen, glass carboys are dangerous. They have been known to break for no apparent reason. Check out the thread on carboy accidents: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=376523. You might want to seriously consider using only plastic for anything over one gallon.

And you are correct: brewing is not rocket science. You can do almost all of the calculations with simple arithmetic and a little algebra. You won't need any differential equations unless you want to try simulating the fly sparging process

Brew on

 

[Braumeise]

While glass is the easiest to clean and sanitize, and is also impermeable to oxygen, glass carboys are dangerous. They have been known to break for no apparent reason. Check out the thread on carboy accidents: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=376523. You might want to seriously consider using only plastic for anything over one gallon.

And you are correct: brewing is not rocket science. You can do almost all of the calculations with simple arithmetic and a little algebra. You won't need any differential equations unless you want to try simulating the fly sparging process

Brew on

Will check that, thank you for the warning - adds one more con to glass.

my pros and cons so far:

*weight... glass is heavier to lift

* bucket comes with handle, hence easier to lift.

*possible damage (plastic can scratch and will be impossible to sanitize if scratched) and

*I don't trust that no plastic flavour will get into my brew...

*I have not found a glass carboy with a spigot but the big mouth bubbler plastic ones have one... hence I will have a source of possible contamination by using a siphon with a glass carboy.


very incomplete spread sheet with pros and cons atm so way to go before making a final decision.

 

[doug293cz]

...

*I have not found a glass carboy with a spigot but the big mouth bubbler plastic ones have one... hence I will have a source of possible contamination by using a siphon with a glass carboy.

...

Spigots are also a possible source of contamination (I found mold growing in one of mine at the end of a fermentation once.) So, I think spigot vs. siphon is a tie w.r.t. possible contamination.

Brew on

 

[Gerry_P]

Welcome aboard! I wouldn't worry about a ton of equipment and mashing right away. I apologize if someone already mentioned something like this, but here's a suggestion: If you like hefeweizen, you can make a very good one with extract. The second batch of my brewing career was a hefeweizen recipe from Charlie Papazian's book. I used 6.6 lbs. of wheat/barley liquid extract, about 13 IBUs of Hallertauer hops, and Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen). After my first batch (a light lager kit that came with my homebrew kit and which didn't exactly meet my expectations), I was very pleased with the hefeweizen because it actually tasted like something I'd buy. The 3068 is great because it gives you those nice clove/banana flavors and it can ferment fairly warm (up to 75 deg. F), so you don't have to worry quite as much about keeping fermentation temperatures low. You won't be using a kit, you'll be minimizing the possibility of screwing something up, and I guarantee that once you see what you're capable of with such a simple recipe and minimal equipment you'll be hooked.

 

[Gavin C]

Lots of stuff to read in the thread @braumeise .

Here are some Pictures to help visualizes some of the important things to make lagers, and of course some tasty homemade lagers.

Lots of theory for sure but the only way to hone your skills is to brew. Heck even making a simple batch of German Apfelwein will illustrate how to sanitize, mix simple ingredients and the pattern of fermentation. I wish you every success. You're off to a great start by discovering HBT.

Lots of Yeast (starters needed)

Oxygenation of the Wort.

Temperature Control (precise)

Helles

Vienna

 

[Braumeise]

OMG! The Helles looks so good! I have the same Set of all metal knifes btw. (good sign!)

and that Oxygenator looks awesome!

Thank you!
I will be back with more questions.
And maybe I will really start with an Extract Kit just for doing it once.

 

[Braumeise]

Welcome aboard! I wouldn't worry about a ton of equipment and mashing right away. I apologize if someone already mentioned something like this, but here's a suggestion: If you like hefeweizen, you can make a very good one with extract.

Thank you and nice to be here...
I actually never cared for German Hefeweizen, although I don't mind Kronebourg Blanc or Belgium wit beers and I was very pleased by Witches Wit from Lost Abby this year and I actually love the Icelandic white Ale from Einstök. So I can become friends with that idea if I think about it a little longer...

The second batch of my brewing career was a hefeweizen recipe from Charlie Papazian's book. I used 6.6 lbs. of wheat/barley liquid extract, about 13 IBUs of Hallertauer hops, and Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen). After my first batch (a light lager kit that came with my homebrew kit and which didn't exactly meet my expectations), I was very pleased with the hefeweizen because it actually tasted like something I'd buy. The 3068 is great because it gives you those nice clove/banana flavors and it can ferment fairly warm (up to 75 deg. F), so you don't have to worry quite as much about keeping fermentation temperatures low. You won't be using a kit, you'll be minimizing the possibility of screwing something up, and I guarantee that once you see what you're capable of with such a simple recipe and minimal equipment you'll be hooked.

Haha! Not worried about any form of addiction. I am hooked since I started looking at equipment because it all looks so sophisticated and cool...
and my house will be the coolest place on the east coast if I ever manage to have my version of Augustiner Helles on Tap....

I'll figure it out!
Thanks for being helpful.
I really appreciate you guys sharing your expertise with me

 

[sfish]

Hey ~ ~

It is time for you to jump in and get your feet wet.

~ ~ you are over educating yourself ~ ~

Go brew ~ You will find out Drinking selfmade homebrew will make this all clear.

 

[DromJohn]

What sfish said.

I'm a partial something brewer who started because I'm a home cook who about once a week does a randomly selected recipe (latest: jam cake, next up: chopped liver). In 2009 random.org selected for me: Continental Light Lager in Patrick Baker's "The New Brewers Handbook".
No, that was not a kit. I have nothing against kits.
Yes, I brewed a lager for my first brew. Yes, ales are easier, but lagers are not very difficult.
Yes, I made mistakes and have learned from the mistakes.
Yes, it tasted very good and was to style.

Since you are comfortable cooking and baking, you will be fine, even starting with an Augustiner.

Gebräu!

 

[Braumeise]

haha! I love the idea of random selection for cooking and brewing


I went out and bought my first equipment today...

Very important tape measure in inch since converting from my centimeter one was really getting awkward.

Then I went through the store with it, measuring food grade buckets and Compact fridges, wine fridges etc. and came to the conclusion that I need a chest freezer.

Bought the electrical tape, wire caps and stuff to install the RANCO digital temperature controller

and two very important "Sharpies" to label my stuff as well as a 12 oz. can Red Bull sugar free to ensure my mental sanity

So it begins!

Looked at extract kits today from my local Homebrew Supply... not overwhelmed with the options - thinking of an english white beer (there is Rosehips in the Kit - that sounds nice) but am still very unwilling... although it seems like a good start to go for something like that.

Will buy a new Trunk for the Horse and use his old one, filled with water and ice to chill the wort-pot.

Still haven't made up my mind on what to ferment in.

Is anyone using the "Speidel" Fermentors?
Thoughts?

 

[Braumeise]

Temperature Control (precise)

Is that the 7.1 cu ft Haier or a bigger one?
Looked at the 7.1 today, seems small but seems like I can easily lift something over the edges.

 

[Brew_G]

If you don't want to go with glass carboys, and would prefer a spigot, then look no further than the very German Speidel fermenter!

 

[Gavin C]

Is that the 7.1 cu ft Haier or a bigger one?
Looked at the 7.1 today, seems small but seems like I can easily lift something over the edges.

Yes 7.1

 

[kh54s10]

If you don't want to go with glass carboys, and would prefer a spigot, then look no further than the very German Speidel
fermenter!

If you go with any fermenter with a spigot be prepared for an infection. There is no way to keep them totally clean during the fermentation period.

 

[rawlus]

There is no replacement for experience... No amount of reading or research can replace the experience of doing something, failing and learning from it.

Lagers are not only more advanced a beer to brew, they can require a bit more equipment to do exceptionally well. Only you can decide the amount of investment you wish to make up front before brewing a single beer... Most beginners start with a modest investment and try to learn good techniques before making large equipment investments. Ales are more forgiving, extract is more forgiving. When you get into all grain lagers and replicating a commercial style you enjoy the number of variables you must master is pretty much out of reach to the novice Brewer.

The stubbornness or diligence in study is largely irrelevant here. You need practical experience.

It is also true that there can be many ways to get to the same destination and it is through experience that a Brewer learns which techniques do and don't work for their system, their style, the ingredients available and so forth....

I would suggest focusing less on the end product you're aiming for and more on mastery of the techniques and your equipment. Brewing a variety of styles is part of the learning process and allows you to both make mistakes and achieve success.

It will take quite some experience and time to master the variables necessary to reproduce an augusteiner helles- grain bill, grain source, grain grind, water chemistry, mash temperature and duration, fermentation schedule, yeast profile, hop additions, IBUs, original gravity, attenuation, lagering process, CO2 volumes, equipment efficiency, temperature control and about 100 or more other variables... Not the least of which is that the beer you are trying to replicate is made commercially and you are using a Homebrew system to try and make a version at the 5 or 10gallon level. It's not like baking a cake where all you need to do is scale the ingredients to the right batch size.

Brewing is part art, part science and part luck. You dont make beer, yeast make beer, you make wort. And right now you've never made wort, and yout have no experience or idea how augusteiner makes their wort.

The recipe you use with your ingredients and your equipment could be different than what augusteiner uses to make a beer that tastes and looks and smells just like theirs. That is the magic experiment of brewing. It is not just a destination, it is the journey you take and the many decisions you make getting there.

So I strongly suggest finding a brewing club in PA or buying a kit of some sort to eliminate some variables from your first brewing session and start brewing and you will soon then realize what many of us already know... Wanting to do it and doing it are two different things. And you may also find that you can create a recipe and brew all your own that in time and with experience surpasses what can be reasonably produced on a commercial scale.

 

[wobdee]

Speidel has some great brewing equipment you should check out. I use two of their fermenters and they work great. I also have a 20l Braumeister on the way shortly.

 

[slym2none]

If you go with any fermenter with a spigot be prepared for an infection. There is no way to keep them totally clean during the fermentation period.

Really? I'm on batch 8 of beer in a fermenter with a spigot. No infections.

How long do I have to wait for my first one?

 

[kh54s10]

Really? I'm on batch 8 of beer in a fermenter with a spigot. No infections.

How long do I have to wait for my first one?

Who knows? It is just that the spigot has plenty of area for bacteria to get going while the fermentation goes on.

Some make a vessel to wrap around the spigot containing a sanitizing solution with success.

It just seems a problem that is easily avoidable by having fermentation vessels without spigots.

 

[slym2none]

I just don't open my spigot until it's all done. There's no way for it to get dirty if you never use it. It really is that easy, and has never been a problem. No avoidance necessary.

 

[Braumeise]

There is no replacement for experience... No amount of reading or research can replace the experience of doing something, failing and learning from it.

agreed!

Lagers are not only more advanced a beer to brew, they can require a bit more equipment to do exceptionally well. Only you can decide the amount of investment you wish to make up front before brewing a single beer... Most beginners start with a modest investment and try to learn good techniques before making large equipment investments. Ales are more forgiving, extract is more forgiving. When you get into all grain lagers and replicating a commercial style you enjoy the number of variables you must master is pretty much out of reach to the novice Brewer.

That is sort of self-evident. I don't go out and buy a 50k Horse and pro equipment and expect to be a equestrian.

Question for me at this point: will I stick to one thing and fail multiple times before I get it right or do I start with fairly easier stuff...

The stubbornness or diligence in study is largely irrelevant here. You need practical experience.

true but not true... I am not stubborn in terms of study (well yes, I am) but stubborn in my refusal to consider a brewing kit to start with....

but, I am not hopeless... I am considering this route.

It is also true that there can be many ways to get to the same destination and it is through experience that a Brewer learns which techniques do and don't work for their system, their style, the ingredients available and so forth....

true.

I would suggest focusing less on the end product you're aiming for and more on mastery of the techniques and your equipment. Brewing a variety of styles is part of the learning process and allows you to both make mistakes and achieve success.


It will take quite some experience and time to master the variables necessary to reproduce an augusteiner helles- grain bill, grain source, grain grind, water chemistry, mash temperature and duration, fermentation schedule, yeast profile, hop additions, IBUs, original gravity, attenuation, lagering process, CO2 volumes, equipment efficiency, temperature control and about 100 or more other variables... Not the least of which is that the beer you are trying to replicate is made commercially and you are using a Homebrew system to try and make a version at the 5 or 10gallon level. It's not like baking a cake where all you need to do is scale the ingredients to the right batch size.

do not underestimate baking, please. Depending on what you bake, there is so much more to it than measuring the right amount of ingredients and mix them together...

anything that requires yeast is a perfect example of how you can badly fail baking something that is supposed to come out "fluffy/airy" even if you think you have done everything right.

I am the kind of person who drives 20 miles to buy fresh yeast if my recipe requires that instead of substituting it with dried yeast because I know from experience the differences: and I don't care if 100 people tell me, there is no difference. There is one, I know it.

I hope to archive that level of practical knowledge at one point in brewing and of course I need practice. Question is: do I want to practice with one style only or do I try different things from the start. Not sure yet what route is best suitable for my learning curve.

Brewing is part art, part science and part luck. You dont make beer, yeast make beer, you make wort. And right now you've never made wort, and yout have no experience or idea how augusteiner makes their wort.

True.

The recipe you use with your ingredients and your equipment could be different than what augusteiner uses to make a beer that tastes and looks and smells just like theirs. That is the magic experiment of brewing. It is not just a destination, it is the journey you take and the many decisions you make getting there.

Since I am lacking the water from Munich, it will be very different.

So I strongly suggest finding a brewing club in PA or buying a kit of some sort to eliminate some variables from your first brewing session and start brewing and you will soon then realize what many of us already know... Wanting to do it and doing it are two different things. And you may also find that you can create a recipe and brew all your own that in time and with experience surpasses what can be reasonably produced on a commercial scale.

Thank you!
I am taking all that I have been told here into consideration before I start anything.

 

[Braumeise]

Speidel has some great brewing equipment you should check out. I use two of their fermenters and they work great. I also have a 20l Braumeister on the way shortly.

I should buy all that stuff on my next trip visiting my family...
Did check it and also checked reviews both from Germany and from the US.
Seems very reliable, durable, well made, non-leaking, food-safe (and I know Germany has different -> stricter regulations concerning Food-grade Plastic)
So that takes away from my Plastic vs. Glass Con List.

 

[Braumeise]

If you go with any fermenter with a spigot be prepared for an infection. There is no way to keep them totally clean during the fermentation period.

Checked plenty of reviews both US and German and did not find any complaints concerning infection of a "Speidel" Spigot.

I thought of sanitizing and covering it even before you guys talked about it here.


But I although thought of sanitizing my freezer each time I put a new batch in.