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Conflicting advice from LHBS and HBT...

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Care to elaborate further? Can you give a better routine for reusing yeast (that does not include using a conical or direct pitching into a new ferment)?

I too am curious.

Scoop slurry into a sanitized jar with a sanitized spoon. If you get some of the remaining beer, that's even better. pH and alcohol in the beer is much more sanitary to store yeast in than water.

I've switched from the water washing in pint jars to just scooping up slurry/beer into 4oz canning jars.

Easier, quicker, better...
 
Scoop slurry into a sanitized jar with a sanitized spoon. If you get some of the remaining beer, that's even better. pH and alcohol in the beer is much more sanitary to store yeast in than water.

I've switched from the water washing in pint jars to just scooping up slurry/beer into 4oz canning jars.

Easier, quicker, better...

What about trub/hop material coming alone for the ride? Would acid washing not be the best way to store yeast, maybe even starsan can be used (not putting my hand up yet to research).
Next time I got to save yeast I may just leave a bit more beer behind, swirl to get a loose slurry wait for it to settle a bit then pour off the "good" yeast into a sanitised jar.
 
What about trub/hop material coming alone for the ride? Would acid washing not be the best way to store yeast, maybe even starsan can be used (not putting my hand up yet to research).
Next time I got to save yeast I may just leave a bit more beer behind, swirl to get a loose slurry wait for it to settle a bit then pour off the "good" yeast into a sanitised jar.

the small amount of trub and hops (with my system i don't have hops going into the fermentor) is not going to affect anything in the new beer. you are getting lots of break material in the fermentor as it is, way more than the 1/4 to 1/2 cup of slurry is going to have.
i would bet that there are no commercial breweries washing yeast with boiled water, not one. i think some do acid wash the slurry but that is something i don't think the average home brewer is going to get into.
 
the small amount of trub and hops (with my system i don't have hops going into the fermentor) is not going to affect anything in the new beer. you are getting lots of break material in the fermentor as it is, way more than the 1/4 to 1/2 cup of slurry is going to have.
i would bet that there are no commercial breweries washing yeast with boiled water, not one. i think some do acid wash the slurry but that is something i don't think the average home brewer is going to get into.

Sounds like anyone with a fridge, pH meter and stirplate could acid wash (wash yeast fro 1 hour below 5°C and pH 2) but the couple of sources I read said it must be completed ready to pitch imediately and not stored - and it can have an impact on yeast health. One goning as far as saying it is not worth it.
Makes me think though - if you really want to wash instead of using boiled water why not use starsan?
 
Sounds like anyone with a fridge, pH meter and stirplate could acid wash (wash yeast fro 1 hour below 5°C and pH 2) but the couple of sources I read said it must be completed ready to pitch imediately and not stored - and it can have an impact on yeast health. One goning as far as saying it is not worth it.
Makes me think though - if you really want to wash instead of using boiled water why not use starsan?

i don't know about that but it would be interesting to see if it works.
 
i've been re-pitching slurry right out of the fermentor for so long i have no doubt about it's effectiveness. even if star san works i wouldn't do it, too lazy.
 
i've been re-pitching slurry right out of the fermentor for so long i have no doubt about it's effectiveness. even if star san works i wouldn't do it, too lazy.

As in brew a batch the same day as bottling/kegging? or scoop out the slurry and store in a jar for a couple of weeks?
 
As in brew a batch the same day as bottling/kegging? or scoop out the slurry and store in a jar for a couple of weeks?

i also do both. if i can time it so that i brew on a kegging day i'll do that but very often life gets in the way and i have to store the yeast. i have often sealed the fermentor after kegging the beer and scooped out some of the yeast cake the next day for pitching.
 
Brewing is a big world, and lots of store people are more wine people, ale people, cheese people, mead, cider, etc. they don't necessarily know everything.

I'm not sure I understand you're point. The topic was people at a homebrew shop giving bad advice about the process of brewing beer. Whether that person is an expert at making cheese doesn't really give them a pass. At the very least you'd expect them to say something like "gee, I really don't have much experience with lagers, but check out this Noonan book".
 
I'm not sure I understand you're point. The topic was people at a homebrew shop giving bad advice about the process of brewing beer. Whether that person is an expert at making cheese doesn't really give them a pass. At the very least you'd expect them to say something like "gee, I really don't have much experience with lagers, but check out this Noonan book".

Biiiiiiiiiig problem with people these days, not knowing the answer to every question is seen as a fault and people would rather just make some crap up instead of admitting the fact they don't know and either suggesting someone else that does or referring to some other source - and in their mind look stupid.
 
I'm not sure I understand you're point. The topic was people at a homebrew shop giving bad advice about the process of brewing beer. Whether that person is an expert at making cheese doesn't really give them a pass. At the very least you'd expect them to say something like "gee, I really don't have much experience with lagers, but check out this Noonan book".

I don't think I said that cheese makers get a pass. I was explaining the reality of the marketplace. The underlying question seems to be "Why do so many brew store staff give out weird advice or say things that aren't correct?" And that's the answer to that question. It doesn't mean they shouldn't know what they are selling, but they often don't, and that's one of the reasons why.

My point is that when you walk into any given "brewing store," the people working there have a variety of backgrounds and interests that may or may not line up with what they are being asked. Many of the stores that people call the "LHBS" sells more than just brewing stuff, so the in-house expertise is not always where it should be for all the products they are selling.

But our expectations as a customer is that the person there will be an expert in what we're interested in, because they sell the product.

(I'll stop you before you say again that they should at least refer you to something else or admit that they don't know it. Yes, I agree that they should, and stores should do a better job of training their staff. But anyone who is posting on a thread about stupid things other people say when they have limited knowledge of the topic has high expectations of others. One of those expectations is that "you should know what I know.")

Stores should do a better job of training, and what I was pointing out was one of the reasons why bad advice is sometimes given.

EDIT: I was thinking this was the Funny things about beer thread. But the gist of what I am saying remains the same: we have high expectations, and the reality is that stores employ people with a variety of knowledge.
 
On the topic of washing yeast with boiled water... I did that a lot this year, and generally had good results.

...until this past month where I discovered 4 batches all from the same washed slurry were infected. :(:cross::(:drunk:

So now I'm just going to harvest the slurry directly, with some of the un-racked beer. Gives me a good excuse to do a cleaner job of racking.
 
I don't think I said that cheese makers get a pass. I was explaining the reality of the marketplace. The underlying question seems to be "Why do so many brew store staff give out weird advice or say things that aren't correct?" And that's the answer to that question. It doesn't mean they shouldn't know what they are selling, but they often don't, and that's one of the reasons why.

My point is that when you walk into any given "brewing store," the people working there have a variety of backgrounds and interests that may or may not line up with what they are being asked. Many of the stores that people call the "LHBS" sells more than just brewing stuff, so the in-house expertise is not always where it should be for all the products they are selling.

But our expectations as a customer is that the person there will be an expert in what we're interested in, because they sell the product.

(I'll stop you before you say again that they should at least refer you to something else or admit that they don't know it. Yes, I agree that they should, and stores should do a better job of training their staff. But anyone who is posting on a thread about stupid things other people say when they have limited knowledge of the topic has high expectations of others. One of those expectations is that "you should know what I know.")

Stores should do a better job of training, and what I was pointing out was one of the reasons why bad advice is sometimes given.

EDIT: I was thinking this was the Funny things about beer thread. But the gist of what I am saying remains the same: we have high expectations, and the reality is that stores employ people with a variety of knowledge.

i don't think expecting a home brew store employee to know about, uh, home brewing to be a very high expectation at all. but i do understand the point you are putting across.
 
i don't think expecting a home brew store employee to know about, uh, home brewing to be a very high expectation at all. but i do understand the point you are putting across.

You probably find this issue in other kinds of specialty retail as well. Sporting goods stores where the clerk doesn't actually ski, etc. In fact, that's a good comparison. You go to Dick's, and they sell golf stuff, water stuff, camping stuff, shoes, tennis stuff, etc. So the guy from camping is helping out with some other area, and someone asks him a question. Probably half the time, the sales guy is going to make a guess and sound like he knows what he's talking about. Maybe he even thinks he does.

Old hardware stores are great, but I bet they dispense a lot of wacky advice to people who don't know any better.

So the question is why did I get conflicting advice? Because that's how things work out there.
 
Care to elaborate further? Can you give a better routine for reusing yeast (that does not include using a conical or direct pitching into a new ferment)?

Let's start by defining the word "sterile." Boiled water is not sterile. It's more like hyper-sanitary. Sterile means that everything is dead, and moist 212F/100C heat does not kill spores. Water has to be raised to 250F/121C and held there for 15 minutes to render it sterile. As water boils at 212F/121C at normal atmospheric pressure (less at elevation), boiling isn't going to get the job done. We have to raise the pressure under which water is boiled to 15 pounds per square (psi) inch above normal atmospheric pressure in order to delay boiling until 250F/121C is reached. This process is known as "autoclaving." An autoclave is just a lab-grade pressure cooker. Most high-quality pressure cookers are capable of 250F/121C @ 15 psi above normal atmospheric pressure operation.

Let's discuss yeast metabolism. Yeast cells have two metabolic pathways. In the presence of oxygen and glucose concentration levels below the Crabtree threshold of 0.3%, yeast cells respire. During respiration, yeast cells consume a carbon source (e.g., sugar) and produce water and carbon dioxide gas. Above the Crabtree threshold, yeast cells switch into fermentation mode, regardless of dissolved oxygen level. During fermentation, yeast cells consume a carbon source and produce ethanol and carbon dioxide gas. Yeast cells do take in dissolved oxygen while in fermentation mode via the respirative metabolic pathway; however, it is shunted towards the biosynthesis of sterols and unsaturated fatty acids necessary to make their cell walls more pliable. A yeast cell obtains nutrients and expels waste products via its cell wall; therefore, a pliable cell wall is critical to cell health.

Now that we understand yeast metabolism, let's discuss how a yeast culture goes about "owning" a batch of wort. In preparation for fermentation and fermentative growth, the pitched yeast cells rapidly consume dissolved oxygen, which prevents aerobic microflora from reproducing. The pitched yeast cells also lower the pH of the solution to between 4.1 and 4.2. Most types of bacteria are pH sensitive; therefore, they will not grow in an acidic medium. Finally, yeast cells produce ethanol as a waste product. Ethanol is toxic to most microflora. Brewing yeast strains have been domesticated to tolerate much higher ethanol levels than wild microflora.

With that nonsense out of the way, let's answer the question, "Why is washing yeast with boiled tap water a bad idea?" Well, as mentioned above, boiled tap water is not sterile. It also has a near neutral to alkaline pH, which raises the pH of the culture. Finally, boiled water does not possess the antiseptic qualities of ethanol. In essence, we strip away the force field that the culture built for itself and introduce a source of infection when we replace green beer with boiled water. Contrary to what many amateur brewers believe, a culture rinsed with and stored under boiled tap water does not go dormant. The culture remains in the stationary phase where it starves to death and cell autolysis provides an abundant source of nitrogen on which germinated spores can feast.

Let’s answer the question, "Is boiled wort is not sterile?" Yes, boiled wort is not sterile. However, it has an important quality that boiled tap water does not; namely, an acidic pH (usually around 5.2). As mentioned above, most bacteria are pH sensitive; therefore, most of the spores that survive the boil will find less than hospitable conditions after the wort cools. Add in the fact that brewers usually pitch a mass of yeast cells that is large enough to make quick work of consuming dissolved oxygen, lowering the pH even further, and producing ethanol, and it will be difficult for any spore that survived the boil to germinate.

In closing, when it comes to yeast management, less is more. The best way to reuse yeast is to just crop and repitch. If one is trub and hop sensitive (this organic matter does not hurt the culture), the best way that I have found to bottom-crop a relatively clean yeast culture while leaving its ecosystem intact is to leave enough green beer behind while racking to be able to swirl the solids into suspension after racking is complete. One should wait a few minutes to allow the heaviest particulate matter to drop out of solution before carefully decanting the about 250 to 300ml of the liquid fraction into a sanitized 500ml Erlenmeyer flask or other suitable container. It is easier to perform this procedure when cropping from a transparent carboy than an opaque bucket. The culture can be stored in a refrigerator for up to a month without feeding (the culture should be vented); however, I would not go beyond that point without decanting the green beer and replacing it with fresh bitter wort because the culture will start to rapidly lose its viability. One should always keep in mind that cropping is not an effective way to "bank" cultures. The most foolproof way to maintain a bank of cultures in a home brewery is on solid media in the form of agar slants. Yeast stored on slant can live up to two years without being subcultured onto new blank slants. I kept several difficult to obtain cultures alive for ten years using this method. I would still have those cultures today had I not taken an extended hiatus from the hobby.
 
HBT> LHBS is generally true. You get many replies from HBT and you get a consensus after discarding the obvious silliness. Most of the info is great from the two LHBS near me. Occasionally one person is opinionated and wrong, but I don't try to correct him because otherwise he is an encyclopedia of accurate knowledge and I don't want to stop the info flow entirely. If it sounds odd from the LHBS or friends, I cross-check with the folk on HBT just like you did.

EarlyAmatureZymugest, thank you for the detailed reply. I have learned a lot from your posts and decided the proper culture of yeast is beyond my patience at the current time. Although I have learned to take better care of the few cultures I prepare and freeze.
 
EAZ, awesome write-up, thanks for taking the time to post. I just learned something. :mug:
 
To get back on topic as I understand it, The city I live in has one brew shop, and the owner has ten years experience give or take. The city 30 minutes away from me, Reno, Nv, has a LHBS that has been open for 15 plus years. The owner is a certified BJCP judge, and two of his employees are also BJCP judges. He also has the ability to sell grains, etc., loose so if I need 4 ounces of something, I don't have to buy a pound. The two employee judges have differing opinions of how to brew a certain style, and I like that. I can hear the "argument" for both sides, and pick a flavor profile I want to either try, or re-duplicate, or just jump in and see what happens with what I have to work with. I try to justify a trip to Reno whenever possible, just to hang out with guys whose opinions I respect, and can very likely teach me something too.
 
Sometimes a long explanation is mistaken for talking down or being pedantic. 'Nuff said.

I almost put a disclaimer at the bottom of my posting because replies such as dobe12's are starting to be a regular occurrence whenever I create a detailed technical posting.

Let me go on the record by saying that I do not feel like I am superior to anyone. I am way past that stage in life. All I am trying to do is to convey what I have learned since I started brewing. Finding the right balance between being too nuts and bolts technical and being too high level is a difficult thing to do when attempting to discuss something as technical as yeast health and metabolism, especially when one is basically making the claim that the emperor is wearing no clothes.

With that said, all amateur brewers have an area of brewing that holds their interest more than the others. For many amateur brewers, it's about building the ultimate brew house. For others, it's about pushing the outside of the envelope style-wise, and then there are the "contesters" who continuously push themselves to produce prize winning beers with a level of dedication that few amateur brewers can match. For me, it has always been the microbiological side of brewing.
 
One should always keep in mind that cropping is not an effective way to "bank" cultures. The most foolproof way to maintain a bank of cultures in a home brewery is on solid media in the form of agar slants. Yeast stored on slant can live up to two years without being subcultured onto new blank slants. I kept several cultures alive for ten years using this method.

Are you saying to slant on agar and then refrigerate? Not freezing? What is the yeast doing differently on a slant than in a container of wort (green or otherwise)? Isn't it more exposed, even in a sealed tube, on top of the agar rather than covered with anaerobic liquid?
 
I almost put a disclaimer at the bottom of my posting because replies such as dobe12's are starting to be a regular occurrence whenever I create a detailed technical posting.

Let me go on the record by saying that I do not feel like I am superior to anyone. I am way past that stage in life. All I am trying to do is to convey what I have learned since I started brewing. Finding the right balance between being too nuts and bolts technical and being too high level is a difficult thing to do when attempting to discuss something as technical as yeast health and metabolism, especially when one is basically making the claim that the emperor is wearing no clothes.

With that said, all amateur brewers have an area of brewing that holds their interest more than the others. For many amateur brewers, it's about building the ultimate brew house. For others, it's about pushing the outside of the envelope style-wise, and then there are the "contesters" who continuously push themselves to produce prize winning beers with a level of dedication that few amateur brewers can match. For me, it has always been the microbiological side of brewing.

This might be the best post of yours so far. I've come to the conclusion that you're probably a good guy but there is no question that your writing style has a tone about it that many people have picked up on. It says nothing about your intent, but it's out there. Just my 2-cents.
 
Are you saying to slant on agar and then refrigerate? Not freezing?

Yes, slants are refrigerated, not frozen. I know that some HBT forum members refer to frozen stocks as slants, but that's a misnomer. Storing yeast cultures on agar slants is a common practice in laboratories that lack a freezer capable of reaching -80C. In a laboratory setting, yeast cultures that are frozen (a.k.a. cryopreserved) are separated from the culturing medium using autoclaved distilled water and a centrifuge. They are then mixed with a cocktail of chemicals that prevent the formation of ice crystals inside of the cell walls. At -80C, cellular activity stops, and the cells go into a state of suspended animation.

What is the yeast doing differently on a slant than in a container of wort (green or otherwise)? Isn't it more exposed, even in a sealed tube, on top of the agar rather than covered with anaerobic liquid?

Yeast grown on solid media in a culture tube is grown under highly-sterile conditions. All transfers are made aseptically over a flame using a nichrome loop. The downside to keeping cultures on slant is that slanted yeast cultures have to be 100% bacteria and mold free before being transferred to slant, which requires one to plate liquid cultures for "singles." A single is a well-isolated yeast colony on an agar plate. A single is composed of the offspring of a single yeast cell; therefore, it is known as a single-cell isolate or pure culture. Slanted pure cultures can be subcultured to other blank slants without going through the plating process if one practices good aseptic transfer technique.

Here's a photo that I shot when I plated a yeast culture grown from the dregs from a bottle of commercial bottle-condition beer:

PlatedYeast_zps10c1ab8c.jpg


The colonies in the red rectangle in the photo shown above were transferred to slants using the aseptic technique demonstrated @ time 0:32 in the video linked below.



Notice how the woman in the video heats the nichrome loop until it is red hot, cools it on a culture-free spot on the plate, and then transfers a well-isolated colony the slant. That's the technique that I used to transfer the colonies in the red rectangle to different slants. I use an alcohol lamp instead of a Bunsen burner (I burn denatured alcohol in my alcohol lamp).

Here's what can happen if one just inoculates slants without going through the plating stage (this photo was posted on an Australian website):

yuk_yeast.jpg


The slants shown above were inoculated from liquid sources (there is no such thing as a 100% pure commercial liquid yeast culture).


Finally, while amateur brewers tend to use what they can get to make slants, there is a purpose-made tool for the job; namely, the screw-cap culture tube. A screw-cap culture tube looks like a test tube with a screw-on cap.

Here's a photo that I shot when I made blank plates and slants a couple of months ago:

slants_zpsd8559e74.jpg


The bank slants shown above were made using 20x125mm screw-cap culture tubes. I used 16x100mm screw-cap culture tubes for the first ten years that I cultured yeast.
 
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Just a reminder, this was the original post, and it's the topic (see below). I have no idea how it turned into a slanting/plating conversation, but please take that to a new thread. Thanks. (I left the post above because it looked like someone took a while putting it together)

Hi guys,

I'm making a lager for the first time. (the Noche Buena recipe from Papazian) When I was picking the brain of one of the guys at my LHBS he recommended starting the fermentation around 65 degrees and gradually lower the temperature each day until it reaches around 55 degrees. Once the beer had sat at 55 for a few days he recommended raising the temperature a few degrees each day until it was back to 65. From what I've read on HBT, that temperature seems a little high.

Is 45 degrees for fermentation, 60 degrees for diacetyl rest, and then 35 for for lagering a better way? The Joy of Homebrewing didn't mention any lagering for this recipe and stated "bottle within two weeks". Is lagering for a darker beer necessary?

Thanks and I appreciate your insight.
 
In a laboratory setting, yeast cultures that are frozen (a.k.a. cryopreserved) are separated from the culturing medium using autoclaved distilled water and a centrifuge. They are then mixed with a cocktail of chemicals that prevent the formation of ice crystals inside of the cell walls. At -80C, cellular activity stops, and the cells go into a state of suspended animation. .

Not a cocktail of chemicals, just glycerin, which you can buy from a grocery store.

Back on topic...my LHBS gives pretty great advive. All the employees are active in the local homebrewing club and the owners run an attached nano brewery (which is very successful btw, Equinox Brewing), so I have never doubted their advice. I have heard people come in with some serious misiformation and they are pretty gentle with their corrections. And even actually on topic, I would agree that the second option is the correct procedure for lagers. Its nice to have this board to bouce ideas off of.
 
My LHBS is owned by an older couple who used to run a local homebrew club, but they're not in the store very often. The husband had a stroke recently and hasn't been doing well.

The ladies who are in the store most of the time now are very nice, but sadly not very knowledgable. Which I suppose is better than giving bad advice, in a way...

There are a few other shops considerably further away, as well as a brew-on-premise which also sells supplies, and the folks at those shops are more knowledgable, but I try to get what I can from the closest store because it would be a real bummer if they went out of business.
 
adventures in homebrew is my LHBS. Depending on who you get, usually good advice. There seems to be a fair amount of turnover of staff in their bigger ann arbor location, though, and I've had some newer people say some batty things (grain crush has nothing to do with efficiency, it is just so it forms a nicer bed). Working there, though, I imagine they'll get up to speed quickly.
 
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