Conditioning.....Fact vs Fiction

[cheezydemon3]

I THINK I know alot about conditioning. If I am wrong I WANT TO KNOW IT!

For the time being, let's discuss ales only. Also, since you sacrifice conditioning because hop flavor and aroma are lost too, lets leave out IPAs.

Lets consider conditioning anything after 1 week of fermentation.

SO, for an american amber let's say, or most any other middle of the row 6.5% ABV brew......here are my beliefs:

Total conditioning should be at least 6 weeks, preferably 4 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, no fridge involved.

Any combination of primary, secondary, keg (not chilled), or bottle (allowing extra time for bottling sugars to lose the GREEN flavor) works.

Beers conditioned less than 6 weeks, while not "green" are still short of their prime.

Cold beer ceases to condition, although a process akin to lagering may occur, lessening flavor.

Any beer would be better after 6 months bulk or bottle conditioning, as long as processes are good and oxidation isn't a problem.

All of this is ideal, of course. I just put gas to a batch I brewed 1 month ago because My kegs are EMPTY after our Halloween bash. I am just talking "ideally you would let beer condition X months" in this post.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

The problem with your poll is that the answer is always "it depends". Some beers benefit from more aging than others and not just hoppy beers. Some beers benefit from cellar temperature conditions more than others.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

The problem with your poll is that the answer is always "it depends". Some beers benefit from more aging than others and not just hoppy beers. Some beers benefit from cellar temperature conditions more than others.

This.

Too many variables.

 

[Beezy]

I am drinking my weissend in 2.5 weeks including bottle conditioning. I have never had the green flavor.

 

[pcollins]

I say two weeks grain to glass.

Condition however you want but there is nothing that separates us from commercial craft brewers who can put out product in under two weeks.

 

[unionrdr]

My ales don't need to be within 6 weeks to 6 months to get to there prime. Any ale with hops in it won't be as good a few months after bottling. My APA,IPA,& pale ales are best within 5 or 6 weeks. Now,if you start going up to 7%+,then they'll need some more conditioning time.
I'm also starting to see that even mid gravity ales need a bit more time to condition when darker malts are involved. I'm not sure why,but I've had that happen a couple times so far. The Burton ale may be one of them...

 

[dzlater]

Ferment it till it reaches FG.
Taste it for diacytle.
If it tastes good cold crash a day or two and keg or bottle.
But as other said "It depends"

 

[acuenca]

Seriously variable... Sometimes the same ale depending on brew and fermentation conditions will take different amounts of time to condition...

 

[cheezydemon3]

I am drinking my weissend in 2.5 weeks including bottle conditioning. I have never had the green flavor.

"green" isn't the question, when it=s the beer at it's PEAK?

Seriously variable... Sometimes the same ale depending on brew and fermentation conditions will take different amounts of time to condition...

True, but from bottling, I remember that bottles that sat at cellar temps for 3-4 months were unquestionably better then the bottles that were chilled and drank sooner. No matter WHAT the brew.

The few that sat for 6 months or even a year were always fantastic.

If you are part of the 2 weeks primary, cold crash and keg with every brew, how would you ever know if more conditioning would be better?

 

[Beezy]

Well with wheats and IPAs etc they are best as soon as they are carbed IMO. If you are drinking it 2 months in its probably already on the way downhill. I'd say my weisse is peaking about 3 weeks yeah. Another poster mentioned most commercial beers are out the door in 2 weeks. If you have to age an average abv beer that long you probably screwed something up. Higher abv is a whole other deal.

 

[phoenixs4r]

Secondary? No fridge = no temp control?

 

[samc]

My rule is, no rules. Every beer is different. I treat them all on a taste by taste basis and never do 4 week primaries, too long for me.

 

[Phunhog]

In the poll he did say " medium ale". I take that to mean a beer with a OG of 1.050-.060. I think most of my beers in that range are definetly drinkable within 4 weeks. Some are at their peak and some need another week or two. I wouldn't let a 5% beer "age" for three months though.

 

[Yooper]

I couldn't answer, because I'd have to say "none of the above".

A well made ale, fermented at the proper temperature with the proper amount of yeast, will be done fermenting in 3-5 days. Two days or so for a diacetyl rest, and it's ready to package if it's clear.

But it depends on the yeast strain, and ingredients as well- a beer with a highly flocculant yeast will be clear by then but a beer using a non-flocculant yeast will be full of yeast and not ready to package. For ingredients, some "complex" grain flavors need some time to meld. My oatmeal stout, for example, has roasty flavors and needs a bit more time than my IPA.

I think my IPAs are at peak at about day 21. But my stout is definitely peaking at about day 40 or later.

Beer ages faster at room temperature- so I'd keep that stout at 68 degrees until it's ready. THEN if I wanted to preserve it a bit, I'd keep it at cellar temperatures. I'd never age an IPA or a beer best consumed fresh. But for a barleywine, I'd age at cellar temps for a year possibly.

 

[wildwest450]

I THINK I know alot about conditioning. If I am wrong I WANT TO KNOW IT!

You are wrong. I really didn't find any of your "facts" to be close to fact, sorry


_

 

[HopSong]

Ha.. I read this as, "In a PERFECT world.." In my perfect world, It would be 2 weeks primary, cold crash, bottle, drink..

But, hey, this world ain't perfect.

 

[subliminalurge]

Any beer would be better after 6 months bulk or bottle conditioning, as long as processes are good and oxidation isn't a problem.

This is completely false.

I made a Holiday Ale that included a variety of spices. It spent 3 weeks in the carboy and has now been in the keg for about a month. All of that wonderful spice flavor has nearly aged out already. It's nearly undetectable.

Also, IPAs and wheats would suffer greatly from that much aging, IMHO.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Agreed. A long period of aging can cause IPAs, wheats/hefes, and any other beer with non-malt aromatics to taste one-dimensional.

 

[biestie]

A well made ale, fermented at the proper temperature with the proper amount of yeast, will be done fermenting in 3-5 days. Two days or so for a diacetyl rest, and it's ready to package if it's clear.

But it depends.......

Exactly. I'm drinking most of my ales within... gawd clay is hot, wait what's this thread about?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I did specify a medium american amber 6.5% ABV.

I also specified that IPAs (sorry I didn't mention spiced holiday beers ) and a few others are better consumed sooner, so leave them OUT of this poll.

All of the complete naysayers merely confirm that there is a lot of ignorance around this subject and not all of it is mine.

 

[cheezydemon3]

You are wrong. I really didn't find any of your "facts" to be close to fact, sorry


_

Thanks, I guess.

Your lack of specifics leaves me doubtful that you are right either.

 

[pjj2ba]

I think a well-crafted, medium ale, that is done fermenting within 7 days, should be ready to drink, at the latest, by 2 weeks later. This is well over what is commonly done commercially.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but the key is well-crafted. If no "off" flavors (too strong, hot, fusels, etc) are produced during fermentation, than there is no need for a long conditioning step. If there were some issues, then yes, longer conditioning is necessary and will help. Getting fermentation perfect, with proper aeration, yeast amount, temperature regulation, etc. is no trivial task. I have read form numerous sources that this is the most important part of brewing, but often the least worried about.

 

[subliminalurge]

I did specify a medium american amber 6.5% ABV.

You then go on and continue to use phrases like "Any beer" and "all beers".

So this is a thread about conditioning for a certain subset of one very specific beer style? Seems kinda useless.

I'll play along, though. By pure coincidence I kegged up an American Amber last night and it definitely needs some aging. It's APA hoppy right now, way overboard for the style. Think I'm even going to vent co2 from the keg periodically to help strip some of the hoppiness out faster, since this particular keg is earmarked to be served in two weeks.....

God, I can't believe I just said that. Strip out the hops? Argg!!!!

 

[cheezydemon3]

I think a well-crafted, medium ale, that is done fermenting within 7 days, should be ready to drink, at the latest, by 2 weeks later. This is well over what is commonly done commercially.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but the key is well-crafted. If no "off" flavors (too strong, hot, fusels, etc) are produced during fermentation, than there is no need for a long conditioning step. If there were some issues, then yes, longer conditioning is necessary and will help. Getting fermentation perfect, with proper aeration, yeast amount, temperature regulation, etc. is no trivial task. I have read form numerous sources that this is the most important part of brewing, but often the least worried about.

Interesting point!

You then go on and continue to use phrases like "Any beer" and "all beers".

So this is a thread about conditioning for a certain subset of one very specific beer style? Seems kinda useless.

I'll play along, though. By pure coincidence I kegged up an American Amber last night and it definitely needs some aging. It's APA hoppy right now, way overboard for the style. Think I'm even going to vent co2 from the keg periodically to help strip some of the hoppiness out faster, since this particular keg is earmarked to be served in two weeks.....

God, I can't believe I just said that. Strip out the hops? Argg!!!!

You are making pjj2ba's point! Interesting.

And yes, I could have sat down and lined out the poll before just posting it, but that isn't my style.

I do have evidence that beer stored for months at fridge temps loses flavor (especially ales) and undergoes a bastardized form of lagering.

 

[wildwest450]

Thanks, I guess.
Your lack of specifics leaves me doubtful that you are right either.

Maybe if I posted in caps, bold print, and exclamation points, like the op, you would be more inclined to believe? Makes no difference, you're still misguided.

Any medium gravity ale that takes 6 months to to be "better" is probably suffering from poor brewing technique and is benefiting from the time to mute off flavors.


_

 

[TheMan]

I agree with the shorter conditioning...exactly what pjj2ba said, proper aeration, pitching lots of healthy yeast, and temp control gets it done quick. I've seen my beers krausen and fall within one week in most cases. Then I let them sit another week, taste it. If no off flavors and it tastes good then keg or bottle. When it's carbed it's ready. There are obviously some exceptions, stouts with a lot going on will need a few more weeks conditioning. But anything with a more basic grainbill is usually done quick.

It's all about good procedures. If your procedures are bad then you'll have to wait longer for your beer to mellow out. And to me drinking it fresh is what homebrewing is all about. You can't compare a beer fresh off the fermenter to something that takes weeks to reach you. Homebrew wins nearly every time.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I am pretty sure that my processes are good. My beers are typically surprisingly good after say 1 month in primary then kegged.

But I find myself missing bottling because that last sixer that sat in the "cellar"(my basement) for 3-4 months was noticeably better than the first sixer.

Likewise, beer that sat in the fridge for 3-4 months lost some flavor. So unless I have a party and drain my kegs fast, the last pint is slightly lacking in flavor compared to the first pull.

So naturally I thought that longer ageing at cellar or room temps was beneficial and much preferable to 2 weeks and fridge it, if it wasn't all going to be consumed in 2 months or so.

 

[TheMan]

In the same way that someone that only ages 2 weeks then starts drinking and says that aged beer is not better when they haven't compared them side by side....how do you know that a beer you drank 3 months ago is lesser than it tastes now? I would have a hard time comparing the two with such long time between the two tastings.

Not saying it wasn't better, but that's tough to judge. I think it depends all too much on the style, the ones you put in the fridge and say they lost flavor vs. the cellar aged ones. What styles were they?

 

[Beezy]

In the same way that someone that only ages 2 weeks then starts drinking and says that aged beer is not better when they haven't compared them side by side....how do you know that a beer you drank 3 months ago is lesser than it tastes now? I would have a hard time comparing the two with such long time between the two tastings.

Not saying it wasn't better, but that's tough to judge. I think it depends all too much on the style, the ones you put in the fridge and say they lost flavor vs. the cellar aged ones. What styles were they?

Good point. Sometimes it takes me a six pack before I can decide if a beer is good or not. If they are good they taste better each one. If not they get worse and worse. It's purely perception.

 

[cheezydemon3]

In the same way that someone that only ages 2 weeks then starts drinking and says that aged beer is not better when they haven't compared them side by side....how do you know that a beer you drank 3 months ago is lesser than it tastes now? I would have a hard time comparing the two with such long time between the two tastings.

Not saying it wasn't better, but that's tough to judge. I think it depends all too much on the style, the ones you put in the fridge and say they lost flavor vs. the cellar aged ones. What styles were they?

The "better with age" is merely perception and opinion.

The loss of flavor due to 3-4 months in my dad's fridge, is side by side proof.

 

[subliminalurge]

Not saying it wasn't better, but that's tough to judge. I think it depends all too much on the style, the ones you put in the fridge and say they lost flavor vs. the cellar aged ones. What styles were they?

That's an excellent point.

In order to make a valid comparison, you would have to brew two identical batches three months apart. There's just no way to compare a beer that's sitting in a glass in front of you with the memory of a beer you had 3 months ago. I don't care how anal you are about your tasting notes.

Hell, even your mood on a particular day will make a difference. If I just spent an hour and a half mowing the lawn in 95 degree weather, I doubt I'd be able to give a good review to a heavy chocolate stout, no matter how great it really is. But right now, when it's frickin' cold as hell outside, a chocolate stout sounds absolutely perfect.

And brewing two identical batches 3 months apart is, in itself, a huge problem. There are so many variables that the vast majority of homebrewers probably couldn't guarantee that they're identical beers. Just the weather difference in 3 months could affect cooling times, vigor of boil, ground water quality, etc... Sure, there are the elite few here who can maintain control over every last little detail, but for every one of them I'd bet there are 50 of us who are at the mercy of the environment to one degree or another...

Then again, there are some problems that are so obvious that it's easy to tell, like my amber that tastes like an APA. But that's just flat out the result of a bad recipe. Problems that are that obvious don't really require a lot of debate, especially debate about aging. Just choke down the sub-par beer and tweak the recipe next time.

Some beers definitely benefit from extended aging. Most don't need a whole lot. If you're having to age beers that should be good young, then you should probably take a hard look at your recipes and brewing practices.

By the same token, if you're drinking beers young that really should be aged, then you should probably bump up your production capacity so you can always have some quick turnaround beers on hand, or just suck it up and buy more beer at the store so you can let the ones that need aging have it.

 

[PseudoChef]

Maybe if I posted in caps, bold print, and exclamation points, like the op, you would be more inclined to believe?

I see my signature of three years still has relevance.

 

[unionrdr]

When I do it,it's proper English grammar that I got "A's" in all the way up through college. Punctuation is used in order to create all the little stops & pauses you'd use when speaking,rather than writing.

 

[cheezydemon3]

When a post is long, I sometimes BOLD the important points so people that are too lazy to read it can get the main points. Some people STILL didn't read it.

I gots me some "A's" too.

Also, the OP is a different sort of post than a reply.

All else aside, I sure do appreciate the witty banter here.........

 

[rexbanner]

In order to make a valid comparison, you would have to brew two identical batches three months apart. There's just no way to compare a beer that's sitting in a glass in front of you with the memory of a beer you had 3 months ago. I don't care how anal you are about your tasting notes.

I hear ya, but having tasted some of my bigger beers young and at 6+ months, I can attest that there is such a big difference that I don't need a side-by-side comparison. The aged beer is hands down much smoother and richer tasting. I have a dubbel, tripel, and quadrupel right now, each brewed months ago. My processes are fine, I use starters, temp control, yeast nutrient, and pure O2.

To OP: non-hoppy beers over 1.060 OG benefit from aging. Hop flavor fades. So does roasty flavor, but slower. Even if you've never brewed a big beer and aged it, you can see the other side of the coin with smaller beers. An APA tastes best very fresh. A dry stout tastes best at 6 weeks, IMO.

 

[subliminalurge]

I hear ya, but having tasted some of my bigger beers young and at 6+ months, I can attest that there is such a big difference that I don't need a side-by-side comparison. The aged beer is hands down much smoother and richer tasting. I have a dubbel, tripel, and quadrupel right now, each brewed months ago. My processes are fine, I use starters, temp control, yeast nutrient, and pure O2.

Right, I agree completely. We're on the same page. "Big" beers fall into the category of beers that benefit from extra aging. Well, unless we're talking about a DIPA, but those are a special case.

My point was simply this: Age the ones that need it, don't age the ones that don't.

If you make a 4.5% Amber and it takes 6 months for it to taste right, then there's a problem with your process and/or recipe. If you make a barleywine and it tastes better at 2 months than it does at 6, then likewise, you probably did something wrong.

If you drink a barleywine 6 weeks after brewday, then you're not experiencing the beer as it was intended. If you age an IPA for 18 months, then you're not experiencing the beer as it was intended.

I'm not opposed to aging beers that need it. I'm opposed to know-it-alls who claim that ALL beers need to age for 6 months just because that's what they have to do to rid themselves of the off flavors from their substandard brewing practices.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Right on rexbanner, I guess I was assuming that all beers would benefit, which is not right, but I learned what I needed to.

I'm not opposed to aging beers that need it. I'm opposed to know-it-alls who claim that ALL beers need to age for 6 months just because that's what they have to do to rid themselves of the off flavors from their substandard brewing practices.

MAN! that was a real doodybag thing to say. At least I had the guts to state what I thought was true, and asked people to let me know if I am wrong. How is that INSISTING on anything????


Also, I bet some other people learned a thing or 2.


I still say that the people who NEVER age a beer are missing out, but only on some brews.

 

[PseudoChef]

When I do it,it's proper English grammar that I got "A's" in all the way up through college.

All As through college, huh? Apostrophe 's' denotes possession, not pluralization Also, there needs to be spaces after punctuation, such as your commas.

 

[day_trippr]

This thread certainly doesn't appear to have traveled the intended rout, but it's definitely been entertaining! Let's not devolve it into an Emily Post exercise...

Cheers!

 

[subliminalurge]

MAN! that was a real doodybag thing to say. At least I had the guts to state what I thought was true, and asked people to let me know if I am wrong. How is that INSISTING on anything???

Maybe this, in big, bold letters....

Any beer would be better after 6 months bulk or bottle conditioning

Not "any" beer. Some beers, definitely. But some would be well into the declining stage by then. Some would even qualify as "crap" after that much time. It all depends on the beer.

Also, I bet some other people learned a thing or 2.

I hope so. That's what this place is for. I know that's why I'm here.....

I still say that the people who NEVER age a beer are missing out, but only on some brews.

Agreed 100%. By the same token, people who age EVERY beer are also missing out. It all depends on the brew. Some beers need it, some beers it doesn't matter much either way, and some beers it's detrimental.

Wasn't trying to be a "doodybag", but you have to admit you came across pretty strong with your statements in your OP, and didn't sound much at all like you were trying to learn anything. Your OP sounded very much like someone who was trying to preach the true gospel of how all brewing should be done, by everyone, every time.

IMHO, it all comes down to this. Drink the beer when you think it's ready to drink. If I drink mine too soon, or too late, what's it to you? I bought the ingredients, I bought the gear, I spent the time on brewday. I'll drink it when I damn well feel like it. Shouldn't be any skin off your nose if I drink a little green beer just 'cuz I don't feel like buying commercial stuff, as long as I'm not clogging up the message boards whining about why it isn't perfect. I've been doing this long enough to know why.

I have NOT been doing this long enough to get it perfect every single time, but I do have the experience to look back at the brewday for that batch and say "Ahh.... That's probably it, I'll have to pay more attention to that in the future...."