cold steeping and late steeping dark grains, ph?

[MorBeer83]

Hi everyone! I've search for some similar topic but i couldn't find anything, so I start a new one.
Tomorrow i'll brew a London Porter clone and I want to avoid astringency.
First step will be don't squeeze my bag, just in case.
Second step will be a separate steep for dark grains. I tried cold steeping for my last black ipa and it worked really fine. But that beer lacks of toasted and roasted aroma. I thinked that it was because I dh like 8 gr/litre ^^ so maybe hop aroma just covered up all.
But lately I read an interesting article on Zymurgy (Jan/Feb 2002 issue)
written by Mary Anne Gruber where she shows some interesting results:

After 20 hours cold water steep she got bland or mild flavors, with 5 minutes hot waters steep she got smooth full flavor with slight harshness but no astringency.

So, I was wondering what could happen if I just mash the dark grains during the mash out ramp, the last 5 minutes.

My problem is: how do I calculate ph? I have to aim for 5.2 but then? Could dark grains in so little amount of time lower the ph under 5.2?
What do you think or what is your experience?

Thank a lot for your time, this is the most awesome forum with the most awesome persons!! Hugs from italy.

 

[Lefou]

This is something I'm interested in, too.
Cold steep or mash the dark roasted grains - what are pros and cons? It's something to know when doing porters or stouts.

 

[EcuPirate07]

what I've done in the past is throw my dark grains in a bag in the kettle and when I transferred the wort to the kettle the bag steeped in the hot wort until I finished my wort collection. Then I pulled the bag out and started the boil.....I squeezed the bag!

 

[MorBeer83]

what I've done in the past is throw my dark grains in a bag in the kettle and when I transferred the wort to the kettle the bag steeped in the hot wort until I finished my wort collection. Then I pulled the bag out and started the boil.....I squeezed the bag!

Ok, so I'm going bias, I think throw in dark grains while I mash out will be kinda the same... Did you have troubles with pH or astringency? I suppose you corrected your pH during the mash aiming for 5.2 before transferring wort to boil kettle...
Thank you two for answers!

 

[MorBeer83]

Ok, so I'm going bias, I think throw in dark grains while I mash out will be kinda the same... Did you have troubles with pH or astringency? I suppose you corrected your pH during the mash aiming for 5.2 before transferring wort to boil kettle...
Thank you two for answers!

Sorry, biab no bias

 

[RM-MN]

Hi everyone! I've search for some similar topic but i couldn't find anything, so I start a new one.
Tomorrow i'll brew a London Porter clone and I want to avoid astringency.
First step will be don't squeeze my bag, just in case.
Second step will be a separate steep for dark grains. I tried cold steeping for my last black ipa and it worked really fine. But that beer lacks of toasted and roasted aroma. I thinked that it was because I dh like 8 gr/litre ^^ so maybe hop aroma just covered up all.
But lately I read an interesting article on Zymurgy (Jan/Feb 2002 issue)
written by Mary Anne Gruber where she shows some interesting results:

After 20 hours cold water steep she got bland or mild flavors, with 5 minutes hot waters steep she got smooth full flavor with slight harshness but no astringency.

So, I was wondering what could happen if I just mash the dark grains during the mash out ramp, the last 5 minutes.

My problem is: how do I calculate ph? I have to aim for 5.2 but then? Could dark grains in so little amount of time lower the ph under 5.2?
What do you think or what is your experience?

Thank a lot for your time, this is the most awesome forum with the most awesome persons!! Hugs from italy.

If you can squeeze the bag of grains hard enough to squeeze out tannins, I will throw out my vise grip pliers and hire you when I need steel squeezed together. Heck, I could probably do without the welder too since you could just squeeze the steel hard enough to join it. In other words, squeezing doesn't release tannins. It takes a high pH and high temperature to do that.

If you want full roasty flavor you do the mash with all the grains in. Let the wort ferment, bottle it, and then wait for the harsh roasty flavors to mature out. My stouts get 6 months to a year or even more in the bottle and the harsh flavors settle out.

You are too worried about the low pH when you add the dark grains after the mash. During the mash is when the pH is critical, not after it is over. While the preferred pH during the mash is 5,2 to 5.4, anything between 5.0 and 6.0 will probably work out fine.

 

[The_Bishop]

That's not completely true about pH only being important during the mash, the kettle pH will affect hop utilization and flavor, as well as finished beer pH will also impact beer flavor.

 

[EcuPirate07]

Ok, so I'm going bias, I think throw in dark grains while I mash out will be kinda the same... Did you have troubles with pH or astringency? I suppose you corrected your pH during the mash aiming for 5.2 before transferring wort to boil kettle...
Thank you two for answers!

Yeah sorry I don't biab. You could still technically do it the same way. Do your biab and once you pull the grain bag just throw in your dark malts in a separate bag (5 gallon paint strainer bag from lowes) and let it steep like a tea while you bring it to a boil. I did not receive any astringency. And as far as ph I dont remember correcting ph after the mash honestly, though if you have a good ph meter you could definitely correct at that time.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Unless your water is really challenging to brew good tasting beer with, you may want to look into other brewing processes that cause astringency. While a great brewing water profile will provide increased utilization, improved color and clarity, most tap water should be able to brew a beer without fear of causing astringency.

You can rule out squeezing the grain bag as a source of astringency, its just a myth, as is adjusting mash pH during the mash. By the time it takes the mash to stabilize its already too late for any adjustments to be made. One of the most important things a brewing water calculator can do, is give you the ability to predict the pH of your mash ahead of time.

 

[Lefou]

Thanks very much for that hint ^^^^
I typically use Brewer's Friend mineral additions calculator and haven't paid much attention to the more in-depth mash water and brew chemistry calculator.
Maybe I should!

 

[MorBeer83]

If you can squeeze the bag of grains hard enough to squeeze out tannins, I will throw out my vise grip pliers and hire you when I need steel squeezed together.

hahaha ok Bro, I'll squeeze relaxed now on, thank you man.
And thanks to all of you guys, I always learn so much reading what you write here. Kudos bros!

 

[The_Bishop]

A few points:

Unless your water is really challenging to brew good tasting beer with, you may want to look into other brewing processes that cause astringency. While a great brewing water profile will provide increased utilization, improved color and clarity, most tap water should be able to brew a beer without fear of causing astringency.

This isn't exactly right. It's far, far too general.

Tap water can be a whole lot of things. Most municipal water supplies are treated with chlorine/chloramine that need to be dealt with prior to brewing. Depending on the source, it could be lightly mineralized or it could be liquid chalk. Depending on your brewing process, the alkalinity of your starting water, *and* your grist you can still extract tannins, especially if you're sparging.

If you're on a well, you may have a water softener. If that's the case, the water will be unsuitable for brewing as it will have little to no calcium and magnesium, which are 'hardness' minerals and are ion exchanged for sodium in the softener. That leaves you with a lack of calcium/magnesium and an abundance of sodium.

You can rule out squeezing the grain bag as a source of astringency, its just a myth, as is adjusting mash pH during the mash. By the time it takes the mash to stabilize its already too late for any adjustments to be made. One of the most important things a brewing water calculator can do, is give you the ability to predict the pH of your mash ahead of time.

You're right about the squeezing, but off-base in regards to the mash. There is more to mash pH adjustment than maximizing enzyme conversion; getting the mash pH right will help some with sparge pH rise and will impact kettle pH. Kettle pH will impact hop isomerization, break formation, and wort darkening during the boil. It will also have an effect on the the yeast, and final beer flavor. Too high of a finished beer pH will impart a 'dull' flavor to the finished product and negatively impact shelf stability.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

A few points:

This isn't exactly right. It's far, far too general.

Tap water can be a whole lot of things. Most municipal water supplies are treated with chlorine/chloramine that need to be dealt with prior to brewing. Depending on the source, it could be lightly mineralized or it could be liquid chalk. Depending on your brewing process, the alkalinity of your starting water, *and* your grist you can still extract tannins, especially if you're sparging.

If you're on a well, you may have a water softener. If that's the case, the water will be unsuitable for brewing as it will have little to no calcium and magnesium, which are 'hardness' minerals and are ion exchanged for sodium in the softener. That leaves you with a lack of calcium/magnesium and an abundance of sodium.

It may not have been obvious but I was speaking in general terms regarding tap water.

You're right about the squeezing, but off-base in regards to the mash. There is more to mash pH adjustment than maximizing enzyme conversion; getting the mash pH right will help some with sparge pH rise and will impact kettle pH. Kettle pH will impact hop isomerization, break formation, and wort darkening during the boil. It will also have an effect on the the yeast, and final beer flavor. Too high of a finished beer pH will impart a 'dull' flavor to the finished product and negatively impact shelf stability.

Not really off-base when you consider getting the mash pH right the first time, by accurately predicting what it will be ahead of time, also allows everything else you mentioned to fall in line.

 

[rmyurick]

I've heard Jamil Z. say the whole idea of getting astringency from dark grains in the mash is bull. If you are BIAB, there shouldn't be any cause for astringency. If you are fly-sparging, you have to be aware of the runoff gravity and stop before it gets too low.

 

[Bill33525]

Couple of interesting threads on the subject:

http://www.brewunited.com/view_topic.php?topicid=350

https://www.homebrewersassociation....steeping-getting-the-most-out-of-dark-grains/