Cold steep dark grain and crystal?

[rhys333]

Hey everyone,
I'm brewing a porter this weekend and have decided to steep the chocolate and crystal malt separately to reduce harsh flavors and aging time (grain bill below). I have a few questions about this process as I've always until now added everything to the main mash. I brew BIAB by the way.

Okay... can I cold steep the crystal malt along with the chocolate or should I hot steep it separately? Is it best to just keep the crystal with the main mash? Should I expect reduced efficiency from cold steeping (one source says to increase steeped grains 10 to 15%)? Thanks in advance.

PORTER (4 gal):
55% MO 3.75 lb
20% Wheat 1.34 lb
10% Brown 0.68 lb
10% C75 0.68 lb
5% Chocolate 0.34 lb

 

[lowtones84]

I don't think that amount of C75 warrants a cold steep or a separate hot steep, I would just throw it in with the main mash. I would assume you would lose some gravity by cold steeping the chocolate malt, but it's also 5% of the bill. I've also just thrown it in to the last 10 minutes or so of the mash before and have liked the results, but don't have solid scientific numbers on either method. Sounds like a good grain bill to me!

 

[rhys333]

Thanks lowtones. I'll keep the crystal with the mash then. Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. I guess the brown malt could impart some astringency too but nothing I can do to combat that.

 

[cannman]

I wouldn't cold steep. If you are worried about harsh tones and astringency, you are experiencing PH problems in your mash. Focus there ^_^ good luck.

 

[rhys333]

Cannman, I already control pH with RO, minerals and acid. I find it unpredictable with dark beers/grains.

 

[lowtones84]

I wouldn't worry about the brown malt too much. It's only 10%, and what fun is a dark beer with absolutely no toasted/roasted malt flavors? I know you're going for a brown porter, but I feel like it should still have some of that. Keep us updated on if you think it's worth it for cutting down on time until it's "ready."

 

[rhys333]

Will do, brewing tomorrow so I'll be tasting the gravity sample in 3 weeks and the first bottle in 4-5.

As an aside, I just bottled an oatmeal brown today that used the standard all-in-mash method. The gravity sample I tasted was quite acrid/acidic from the 4% chocolate addition. Time will tell but I suspect the carbonate debate may play a role as well. I deliberately chose one model over the other to test whether carbonate is needed for pH with darker malts in the main mash. Either way, the dark malt steeping should in theory make it a non-issue going forward.

 

[lowtones84]

Yeah, chocolate can get that way, but has always aged out in my experience. Going to try pale chocolate on my next porter or dark mild.

 

[rhys333]

I'm currently 9 hours into a 24 hour cold steep. I tasted the liquid and it's intensely bitter. Intense in that I tasted a tiny amount 1.5 hours ago and it still lingers. If it weren't for others reporting success, I'd be second guessing the process.

 

[Rcbandl]

I have listened to a few podcasts that did some testing with cold/hot/boil steeping and the general thought was using less of a dark malt in a mash basically gave the same result as cold steeping.

 

[Iseneye]

I have made a brown porter with cold steeping and standard mashing. I doubled the amount of dark malts to compensate for the cold steep. The resulting beers tasted very similar and I don't know if I'd bother doing it again.

 

[rhys333]

I increased by 10% only. I wonder if pH applies to dark grain cold steeping. It's not supposed to... is it?

 

[didinho]

what I usually do is putting dark grains in the last 20 minutes of the mash. this way I avoid astrincency problems, and I keep reasonably the toasted-roasty tastes in the beer

 

[rhys333]

Revising my comment from post #9:
I filtered the grain at 24 hours and it's a lot smoother tasting now. Plenty of roasty aroma and flavor, but not crazy bitter.

 

[Reisende]

Sounds like your results might agree with Gordon Strong's opinion. Have your read Brewing Better Beer?

 

[rhys333]

Sounds like your results might agree with Gordon Strong's opinion. Have your read Brewing Better Beer?

I haven't read that one, but it's his procedure I'm following and I do have his latest book, Modern Homebew Recipes, on hold at the library.

 

[Reisende]

Its an awesome book, you wont be disappointed!

I tried the cold steep process on two occasions, and the smoothness really came through in the finished beer, for me at least. i think it makes the most difference in beers with a high percentage of very dark roasted grains

 

[rhys333]

I'll be able to do a direct taste comparison soon. I have a brown ale with 4% chocolats that I added to the main mash and this upcoming porter where I cold steeped 5% chocolate and added to the boil with 10 minutes remaining.

 

[Rcbandl]

I haven't read that one, but it's his procedure I'm following and I do have his latest book, Modern Homebew Recipes, on hold at the library.

I just got his latest book and I am going to give his method a try of adding dark and crystals at vorlauf.

 

[jdonley]

bump, results?

 

[rhys333]

The cold steeping didn't prevent the coarse astringency I had experienced before unfortunately. It was quite harsh for a while, but mellowed considerably after a couple months and turned into an awesome porter. There may have been a contributing factor though, which I have since corrected. Back when I brewed this, I used to treat the mash water but sparge with straight RO. I believe sparging with RO caused tannin extraction and may have been the real problem behind why my darker beers seemed astringent. I now treat both mash and sparge water to the same mineral levels, and no longer experience the problem. I haven't brewed a porter since this one though, so thanks for the reminder... I may have to brew this beer again over Christmas break.