Co2 purity

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Has anyone played with ascorbic acid / carbon sachets for O2 scavenging? If I could figure out a way package and suspend this in my conical head space, it would be cheap insurance when dry hopping.
 
I had a chance to sit down and talk to the Sierra Nevada guys when I wrote an article on crown caps for Zymurgy, some brands of oxygen scavenging caps scavenge hop flavors. That shocked the heck out of me, last thing I expected. Their taste panels could taste the difference. They were more concerned with the amount of wrap a crown had versus loosing hop character to the cap and felt that more contact on the cap to bottle will prevent the oxygen ingress and have an overall better beer. If you recall they were one of the first to go back to the tool required caps. They have a better seal. We did not get into brands of caps, but it did push me to abandon adding oxygen scavenging packets to my hop packages I ship out.

It really keeps getting back to process, keep out the oxygen. I fight it at all points from after I dough in. I worry about all bubbles in the process, most are oxygenating issues. I have not gone over to the other side to low oxygen brewing ie boil and mash, the balance is low oxygen processing.

I love drink German and Belgian beers. The Germans have the worst oxygen contamination issues of the two. One major difference is the Belgians naturally carbonate their beers, an oxygen scavenging process
 
Certificate of analysis from the cheaper source.
 

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I'm all about science, but I don't think that's happening here. One user has used a device that measured some oxygen in bottled co2, then said that is enough to oxidize your beer.

Not saying he's wrong, but it definitely hasn't been proven, or that the reality isn't way more nuanced than that. Maybe it isn't enough to oxidize the beer. Maybe it is, but it takes 3 years before a BJCP judge can pick out the oxidized flavors. Maybe his device isn't calibrated properly or wasn't used correctly.

I'd be pretty surprised if the entire industry has been accidentally ruining their beers for decades.
 
moreb33rplz said:
I'm all about science, but I don't think that's happening here. One user has used a device that measured some oxygen in bottled co2, then said that is enough to oxidize your beer.

Not saying he's wrong, but it definitely hasn't been proven, or that the reality isn't way more nuanced than that. Maybe it isn't enough to oxidize the beer. Maybe it is, but it takes 3 years before a BJCP judge can pick out the oxidized flavors. Maybe his device isn't calibrated properly or wasn't used correctly.

I'd be pretty surprised if the entire industry has been accidentally ruining their beers for decades.
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I suspect you are doing what many do, and viewing flaws in black and white pass/fail terms rather than gradients and thresholds.

Any oxygen present not taken up by yeast will oxidize. And any supplied CO2 is gonna contain a measure of impurity that includes oxygen (fermentation-produced at the source being the highest purity). I don't think anyone on either side of the discussion is trying to dispute those. The question is at what point is it going to make a perceptible difference, and that's where the disagreement is.

I don't think 40ppb oxygen contamination in a CO2 supply is gonna produce cardboard or sherry flavors on its own. But in my experience it can definitely dull bright fresh beer flavors, especially hops, and can be the difference between decent beer and BOS table beer (as another poster said). Which to me is plenty difference to be of concern. Especially when other typical sources of ingress are added atop of it.

It also matters the way it's applied. Used as head pressure for a gas transfer will see little diffusion and little impact. Used through a carb stone is another story. Purging it's probably good enough as long as you're not short filling a keg. Carbonating with it even via just head pressure, you're again allowing that oxygen into solution, just not as rapidly as with a carb stone.

40ppb residual oxygen won't pass many breweries acceptable threshold for a CO2 purge- in which case they must be using a higher purity supply (whether or not its certified as such). And many certainly aren't measuring DO at all. There's a hell of a lot of oxidized beer out on the market, even fresh. And most breweries, larger ones especially, aren't using cylinders but bulk supply or even harvesting fermentation CO2 (which is super pure).

And I don't question the measurement. What Intend to do is check a few other canisters and see if that 40ppb was abnormally high, typical, or even low. On its own (discounting other impurities) its within the purity threshold regulations for beverage grade CO2 so none of the three would surprise me.
 
All I'm pushing back on is the comments that implied if you didn't believe oxygen in co2 was oxidizing your beer, you're denying science.

There is no science that confirms oxygen in co2 oxidizes beer. There isn't even a standard for measuring oxidation.

"But in my experience it can definitely dull bright fresh beer flavors, especially hops, and can be the difference between decent beer and BOS table beer (as another poster said)."

This may or may not be true, but it isn't science, and is not objective.
 
Qhrumphf said:
And I don't question the measurement. What Intend to do is check a few other canisters and see if that 40ppb was abnormally high, typical, or even low. On its own (discounting other impurities) its within the purity threshold regulations for beverage grade CO2 so none of the three would surprise me.
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I managed to get a 50lb bottle of research grade from Oxarc and the COA said 3ppm which I thought was pretty good compared to the 40-50ppm in food grade.
 
moreb33rplz said:
All I'm pushing back on is the comments that implied if you didn't believe oxygen in co2 was oxidizing your beer, you're denying science.

There is no science that confirms oxygen in co2 oxidizes beer. There isn't even a standard for measuring oxidation.

"But in my experience it can definitely dull bright fresh beer flavors, especially hops, and can be the difference between decent beer and BOS table beer (as another poster said)."

This may or may not be true, but it isn't science, and is not objective.
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There is quite a bit of science that confirms O2 in CO2 oxidizes beer. Just a little time on google would have confirmed that. Hach website for instance is a good read on the topic.

So maybe the more correct term here is oblivious to science instead of denying it?
 
Bilsch said:
There is quite a bit of science that confirms O2 in CO2 oxidizes beer. Just a little time on google would have confirmed that. Hach website for instance is a good read on the topic.

So maybe the more correct term here is oblivious to science instead of denying it?
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What constitutes oxidation? 1 ppb? 100? Is it style dependent?

There is no way to measure oxidation, at least in a way that correlates amount of dissolved oxygen to perceptible defects (that I know of).
 
Vale71 said:
Buddy, you have absolutely no idea at all what you're talking about. Like, absolute zero.
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Feel free to enlighten me? Another poster already made the point that oxygen in beer is bad, which I agree with. I'm pretty sure you can't produce evidence that oxygen in co2 bottles makes the beer taste bad.
 
moreb33rplz said:
What constitutes oxidation? 1 ppb? 100? Is it style dependent?

There is no way to measure oxidation, at least in a way that correlates amount of dissolved oxygen to perceptible defects (that I know of).
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Sure there is. Big brewers constantly measure TPO immediately after packaging, before the oxygen can react with the antioxidants to get an idea of how much loss of flavor they can expect. They know these things quite precisely and what toll it will take on their product.

Am I the only one that reads up on these things off this website?
 
Some breweries target certain amount of max allowable oxygen in their packaged beer, but that doesn't answer my question (which was rhetorical). There is no way to measure when a beer is oxidized. There is no agreed-upon correlation between the amount of oxygen in a packaged beer that will make it taste bad.

But that's the broader subject of oxidation.

To rewind to the original thread: Do you guys honestly believe using bottled co2 ruins your beer?
 
hate to break up the charm..but i'm still scratching my head trying to wrap it around 3ppm, compared to 50ppb? wouldn't 3ppm, be like 3m ppb? would you use that to both oxegenate, and ferment under pressure? i'm not sure i'm gettinig the math.....

edit: this is actually kinda a serious question. i was told it wasn't a typo, then vale told me it was just a typo on the second use? 🤔

edit #2: vale, if you meant the it's supposed to be ppm the whole time, then that changes the whole thread! :mug:
 
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bracconiere said:
hate to break up the charm..but i'm still scratching my head trying to wrap it around 3ppm, compared to 50ppb? wouldn't 3ppm, be like 3m ppb? would you use that to both oxegenate, and ferment under pressure? i'm not sure i'm gettinig the math.....
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I invite you to do a little googling on the available grades of CO2 and reading for yourself what the specs are. I have no idea how the other member got PPB levels as that’s not even mentioned on supplier sites. Maybe his stock was from ferment captured gas, maybe a mistake in measurement.. I have no idea.
 
moreb33rplz said:
Some breweries target certain amount of max allowable oxygen in their packaged beer, but that doesn't answer my question (which was rhetorical). There is no way to measure when a beer is oxidized. There is no agreed-upon correlation between the amount of oxygen in a packaged beer that will make it taste bad.

But that's the broader subject of oxidation.

To rewind to the original thread: Do you guys honestly believe using bottled co2 ruins your beer?
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There's three levels to answer this.

Has an oxidative reaction occured that has formed trans-2-nonenal (example oxidative compound associated with paperiness)? If so, regardless of level, that is oxidation.

Then comes "can you taste it". Which is arguably what matters most. That can be split into an individual person's threshold for the given compound, which can be directly measured. It can also be viewed in terms of average threshold. Everyone is different and could have an individual threshold below or above that average threshold. It gets messy but it can be measured and is not subjective.

Then comes, if you can perceive it, is it detrimental. This is ultimately subjective. But still has its validity. The consensus/prevailing opinion may say "this compound is good or bad above xyz threshold", and you are free to see it differently.
 
moreb33rplz said:
Some breweries target certain amount of max allowable oxygen in their packaged beer, but that doesn't answer my question (which was rhetorical). There is no way to measure when a beer is oxidized. There is no agreed-upon correlation between the amount of oxygen in a packaged beer that will make it taste bad.

But that's the broader subject of oxidation.

To rewind to the original thread: Do you guys honestly believe using bottled co2 ruins your beer?
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how about these..

https://tapintohach.wordpress.com/category/co2-in-beer-2/

https://www.**********************/carbon-dioxide-purity/
 
Qhrumphf said:
There's three levels to answer this.

Has an oxidative reaction occured that has formed trans-2-nonenal (example oxidative compound associated with paperiness)? If so, regardless of level, that is oxidation.

Then comes "can you taste it". Which is arguably what matters most. That can be split into an individual person's threshold for the given compound, which can be directly measured. It can also be viewed in terms of average threshold. Everyone is different and could have an individual threshold below or above that average threshold. It gets messy but it can be measured and is not subjective.

Then comes, if you can perceive it, is it detrimental. This is ultimately subjective. But still has its validity. The consensus/prevailing opinion may say "this compound is good or bad above xyz threshold", and you are free to see it differently.
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I think we actually agree completely - at least with all the stuff you wrote there.

Would I rather have no oxygen in my co2 bottle? Yeah. Do I think myself, you, or a beer judge will reliably (or ever) tell a difference between two identical beers, one carbed or pushed with .0001% purer co2? Nope.

But, that's just my opinion.
 
Bilsch said:
I invite you to do a little googling on the available grades of CO2 and reading for yourself what the specs are. I have no idea how the other member got PPB levels as that’s not even mentioned on supplier sites. Maybe his stock was from ferment captured gas, maybe a mistake in measurement.. I have no idea.
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Using an Anton Paar CBox QC. There's some element of doubt as its kind of off-label but common usage and there's mixed stories from manufacturer as to the efficacy of gas testing as opposed to liquid testing. It's calibrated by gas (high purity nitrogen), not liquid.

But as I've said before, I have ROUTINELY watched levels in transferred beer (which is the on-label usage) drop below normal transfer pickup levels with application of CO2 via carb stone (gas stripping) using bulk supply (which we've measured to 5-8ppb) and rise using bottled CO2. If the supply were in the ppm range instead of ppb, I'd expect it to rise (or rise further), not fall. It gives me some confidence that even if those gas readings aren't 100% accurate they're close to it.

Maybe we're getting fermentation capture? I don't know. I'm using standard procedure on both ends. Perhaps a previous poster was right and most CO2 is purer than regulation and the COA is is just a maximum level?
 
so my math on incorrect molar weights, that either 2.5 grams in my 1.2oz's of co2 from the tank or some miniscule 0.00004 grams or something?
 
bracconiere said:
@Qhrumphf i appreciate you posting the link for that thing, if nothing else...looking at cool stuff, you know you can't afford. because you have to formally ask how much it costs is fun! lol

(and my other idea of an inluine co2 scrubber i think is still good! people like @day_trippr with his EVA barrier would love it! ;) :mug:)
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Yeah I could never dream of affording one on my own and am lucky to have one at the job. Even a lot of breweries can't afford it. Costs more than my damned car. I've got a laundry list of things I want to check with it. Example: a friend tries to use positive pressure to the headspace to keep O2 out of a keg while adding gelatin. Given how large a cornie keg is compared to the surface area and headspace I'm not convinced it's effective. I was gonna experiment. I just never have the time.
 
bracconiere said:
edit #2: vale, if you meant the it's supposed to be ppm the whole time, then that changes the whole thread! :mug:
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Yep, it's ppm. Ppb is the unit you'll (hopefully) use to measure TPO or DO in your beer. Ppb kept being used where ppm should have been used and it became a persistent typo.
Qhrumphf's instrument is not meant for measurements in the gas phase and much like an immersion DO meter will give much lower measured values if you try to measure O2 in a gas mixture. On the other hand the measurements in the beer that's being carbonated do make sense as it would be very hard to get 100% of the O2 to dissolve in the beer with its solubility being orders of magnitude lower than CO2, which means that we would expect measurement in the 50-100 ppb range in the beer. If carbing in a closed vessel the remaining O2 will however end up in the headspace and still contribute to TPO.
 
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Vale71 said:
Yep, it's ppm.
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well i'm still confused....but on a serious note, would a O2 absorber like my link help inline on a co2 line? if people are that worried?


edit: and if it's made for testing liquid co2, i'm going to guess we're talking about a BIG tank of co2! ;) :mug:
 
Apologies if I contributed further to your confusion. The instrument is meant to measure dissolved O2. It's basically a very accurate optical DO meter. Even though it does not require immersion in the liquid because of its optical sensor that does not mean it will give meaningful readings if trying to measure O2 in a gas mixture.
 
Vale71 said:
It's basically a very accurate optical DO meter.
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so like even if i could afford it, i'd have to turn my co2 tank upside down, and run the liquid co2 through some sorta clear tube that handle 750-1000 psi? lol

i'm glad this was the first post on a new page....i forgot this was "Brew Scienece" and not drunken rambling! ;)


but i actually am trying to wrap my head around this though....so in an avg welding shop swap, out of the 1.2oz's i burst carb with how many grams are O2 on the norm?
 
bracconiere said:
so like even if i could afford it, i'd have to turn my co2 tank upside down, and run the liquid co2 through some sorta clear tube that handle 750-1000 psi? lol

i'm glad this was the first post on a new page....i forgot this was "Brew Scienece" and not drunken rambling! ;)


but i actually am trying to wrap my head around this though....so in an avg welding shop swap, out of the 1.2oz's i burst carb with how many grams are O2 on the norm?
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Besides ruining your sensor it still wouldn't work. The instrument's response is calibrated for O2 in a water solution, not liquid O2. Dissolved oxygen is still a gas, liquid oxygen is actually a liquid. BTW residual oxygen in your CO2 canister is also still a gas as pressure and temperature would not allow it to actually change phase to liquid. Crazy stuff, huh?
 
Vale71 said:
BTW residual oxygen in your CO2 canister is also still a gas as pressure and temperature would not allow it to actually change phase to liquid.
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so all a person would need is a tank with some sorta dip tube in the tank?


honestly, now i'm worried i'm wasting your time....so what @Qhrumphf showed me just measures, BOTH co2, AND O2 in water?
 
Qhrumphf said:
Yeah I could never dream of affording one on my own and am lucky to have one at the job. Even a lot of breweries can't afford it. Costs more than my damned car. I've got a laundry list of things I want to check with it. Example: a friend tries to use positive pressure to the headspace to keep O2 out of a keg while adding gelatin. Given how large a cornie keg is compared to the surface area and headspace I'm not convinced it's effective. I was gonna experiment. I just never have the time.
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Please do share the results of whatever experiments you manage to do! I'd love to see some of the various keg purging and dry hopping methods compared.
 
If only it were that simple we would all be able to purchase 100.00000% pure CO2 at affordable prices. Unfortunately gases have a nasty tendency to diffuse and they will do so even in liquid CO2 so with the liquid you'd still pick up a significant O2 contamination. :(
 
i just re-read the product description on that thing, so it's for testing finish beer, to make sure it's properly carbed, and not oxidized.....or if carbing by wiehgt like i do, a very scientific way to figure how much more co2 you need to pump into it.


and yeah i hear super critical co2 is a GREAT solvent!
 
bracconiere said:
well i'm still confused....but on a serious note, would a O2 absorber like my link help inline on a co2 line? if people are that worried?
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Not very well outside of a lab setting. These things don’t have much capacity so if you make a small mistake during installation and expose it to air...

Conversely a 50lb bottle of instrument or laser grade CO2 costs less then one of these absorbers you posted about. Also note that absorber needs to be supplied with gas with less than 10ppm O2.
 

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