Cloudy beer w/ All Grain

[tokerlund]

I have brewed several all grain batches since I got my improved set-up for Christmas. The first several were great. Then I brewed two SMaSH brews with Maris Otter. Both of those were cloudier than anything I had brewed before. I chalked it up to my experimenting with BIAB rather than my Math Tun.

For my 2nd go round at Zombie Dust (a family favorite), I went back to the mash tun. I was extremely careful about reducing cloudiness. I ran all of my wort through a straining bag before going into the brew pot, I added hops in a straining bag all through brewing. I siphoned very carefully and this time had a TON less turb at the bottom of the kettle. I fermented for 2 weeks and then dry hopped in a straining bag. I siphoned at 3 weeks into the keg. Then I dry hopped with one last ounce in a straining bag in the keg.

The result is probably one of the cloudiest beers I have ever brewed. I have only poured off 30oz and it has only been cold crashed in the keg for 24 hours, but DAMN. I am getting a bit discouraged.

Any thoughts on what my problem might be? Too fine of a crush perhaps? brewing to long/short? Something with my mash?

HELP

 

[DrDirt]

needs to stay in the fermenter for a few more weeks. Perhaps use gelatin after 4 or 6 weeks in the fermenter.

 

[bd2xu]

You shouldn't have to keep in the fermenter that long to clear it up. Two - three weeks in primary should be enough. What yeast are you using? What is your mash temp? Give it a few days of cold crashing (below 40) to clear up. If it doesn't clear in about a week, try the gelatin method. I've had great results with that.

 

[tokerlund]

That is what I was thinking. My brewing has been behind my (my family's) drinking this spring. I have been rushing beers from the brew pot to the keg. That might explain why the last 3 batches were cloudy.

Thanks!

Anything I can do to clean it up in the keg?

 

[Travestian]

needs to stay in the fermenter for a few more weeks.

That depends on if he hit FG or not.

Seems to me (from what little we know) like your practices are good. Do you use Irish Moss or Whirlfloc in the boil? I would try the gelatin also.

 

[stpug]

Did you use oats in the batch depicted in the picture? Did you crush up those oats? Did you use antwerp ale yeast? Can you tell that I've had a beer that cloudy before making the mistake of crushing up the rolled oats combined with a lowly flocculent strain like antwerp?

I don't know. It sounds like you've done things correctly. Maybe you're still pulling the sedimentation that falling down in the keg and it will clear up in another glass or three.

 

[bd2xu]

That is what I was thinking. My brewing has been behind my (my families) drinking this spring. I have been rushing beers from the brew pot to the keg. That might explain why the last 3 batches were cloudy.

Thanks!

Anything I can do to clean it up in the keg?

You're not rushing it as long as the gravity is good. I just brewed my house Ipa, a Sweetwater clone, used Maris otter this time. Mashed at 152, fermented for 6 days with S-04. Kegged it today and its already almost crystal clear. I think it's either something with your mash/lautering or the yeast. But for this keg, just wait a few days with it chilling and if not clear use gelatin. Just search the forums for gelatin technique, it will make it like glass.

 

[tokerlund]

Great, thanks!

I am mashing in a cube cooler. This one was mashed for about 70min at 148-150. Then I drain it down to my pot. I have had trouble with some stuck mashes and am still tinkering with my CPVC set-up in the cooler. In the end, I just recirculate the first gallon or two until I get a clear stream. The beer looked clear in the pot, in the fermenter and when racking. But, that isn't always a good measurement.

 

[Demon]

You don't need gelatin. Pull the dry hop out of the keg and leave it for a few days, it will be much clearer. Dry hopping in the keg will be extremely cloudy initially. Here is a picture of my IPA using no gelatin/finings at all. 21 days from brew day, including a 5 day dry hop in the keg while carbing.

 

[bd2xu]

You don't need gelatin. Pull the dry hop out of the keg and leave it for a few days, it will be much clearer. Dry hopping in the keg will be extremely cloudy initially. Here is a picture of my IPA using no gelatin/finings at all. 21 days from brew day, including a 5 day dry hop in the keg while carbing.

I use leaf hops to dry hop in the keg. I put the hops in a Muslin bag, sink it with a weight, tied off with dental floss. After about a week I put it in the Keezer to chill and carb. I haven't had issues with cloudiness and the hop aroma flavor is awesome. I know hops in the keg can cause cloudiness but based on his pic it looks like yeast and protein. Either way, if it does clear after a few days use gelatin, works great.

 

[bd2xu]

Great, thanks!

I am mashing in a cube cooler. This one was mashed for about 70min at 148-150. Then I drain it down to my pot. I have had trouble with some stuck mashes and am still tinkering with my CPVC set-up in the cooler. In the end, I just recirculate the first gallon or two until I get a clear stream. The beer looked clear in the pot, in the fermenter and when racking. But, that isn't always a good measurement.

Hmmm sounds good. Did you check for conversion? The mash sounds fine but maybe the crush is the issue. It's still too early to judge clarity. What yeast are you using?

 

[Beernik]

That looks too thick to be chill haze. Looks like a low flocculating yeast to me.

 

[tokerlund]

It was S-04 or S-05, I can't remember at the moment. I just took it straight from the Zombie Dust Clone recipe on this site. Like I said, the first batch was perfect! It started out a bit cloudy (nothing like this), but cleared in a few days to near crystal. I normally ferment at ambient temps in the basement. It was probably 70* to 75*, maybe colder as it was on the ceramic tile the whole time.

 

[Beernik]

S-05 doesn't flocculate as well as S-04.

 

[wilserbrewer]

More cold...more time

RDWHAHB

 

[wilserbrewer]

Clarity comes from the bright tank, aka cold conditioning...24 hrs in the keg is nothing, give the beer a chance, at least a few days or a week or three even better.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The result is probably one of the cloudiest beers I have ever brewed. I have only poured off 30oz and it has only been cold crashed in the keg for 24 hours, but DAMN. I am getting a bit discouraged.

Any thoughts on what my problem might be? Too fine of a crush perhaps? brewing to long/short? Something with my mash?

HELP

You need to work at least 7 days cold conditioning into your brew schedule IMHO. Your concerns of clarity out of the MT, BK, and the fermenter are not a concern. With cold storage, your beer will clear!

 

[bd2xu]

It was S-04 or S-05, I can't remember at the moment. I just took it straight from the Zombie Dust Clone recipe on this site. Like I said, the first batch was perfect! It started out a bit cloudy (nothing like this), but cleared in a few days to near crystal. I normally ferment at ambient temps in the basement. It was probably 70* to 75*, maybe colder as it was on the ceramic tile the whole time.

That's a little warm for these yeasts, you'll get much cleaner flavors in the 60's. I don't think this would cause the cloudiness though. I've had one beer that stubbornly would not clear (it was a Lagunitas Sucks clone attempt) even after a couple weeks in the keezer and that's when I used gelatin. You usually shouldn't have to use it but it's there if you need it, works awesome.

From Palmer's book on cloudiness:

Cause 1: Chill haze This is the number one cause of cloudy homebrew. It is caused by an insufficient cold break during cooling after the boil.
Cure: Use a wort chiller.

Cause 2: Starch If you made an all-grain beer and had incomplete conversion, or added/steeped a malt that needed to be mashed to an extract batch, then you can have residual starches in the beer that will cause cloudiness.
Cure: Watch the mash temperature and mash longer next time.

Cause 3: Yeast Yeast strains that have low flocculation, such as German Hefeweizen, will cause the beer to be cloudy.
Cure: Use a different yeast strain if you want a clearer beer.

In all cases, cloudiness can be combated by adding fining agents (e.g. isinglass, gelatin, Polyclar, bentonite) after fermentation. When all-grain brewing, the clarity can be enhanced by adding Irish Moss towards the end of the boil.

 

[eastoak]

did you get a good hard boil going for this beer? the hot and cold break are key to clear beer along with complete conversion in the mash tun. it is not important that the wort be clear going into the boil kettle, i've done lots of no vorlauf brews (so have many other people) and there is no difference at all in the glass. i have a recirculating mash now so the wort is always clear going into the kettle and i occasionally have a cloudy beer for other reasons.

 

[tokerlund]

Well, I am 2-3 batches along and still the same issue. What is funny is that I brewed a wheat beer just to say screw you to the cloudiness and it was probably my clearest lately. I just did a hoppy red ale and it is very cloudy. I actually used a clearing concoction from the brew store and it did nothing. I did it before I dry hopped, so that might have been the issue.

I brew with a propane burner with a very hard boil. I mash for over an hour in a cube cooler. I use a wort chiller. This one has been in the fermenter for 3+ weeks and now in the keg for 2-3 days. I am headed off for Christmas. I'll see if it is time that it needs.

I am thinking it might be my crush. I use a corona mill and hit it with a drill. This batch I even ran through twice. . . maybe too fine?

Or it could be something I am doing with my mash. . . I am at a loss there. I may go back to BIAB and see if that helps. I skipped out of BIAB because I was having such a hard time keeping a stable mash temp. I'll have to give it a try on my new stove and see if I can fix that.

I do not use Irish moss. Mostly because I forget to add it. I am going to add that next time. The last beer I used gelatin and after two doses, it had only marginally cleared up. After 2 weeks in the keg, it was much clearer.

Long story short, I know it will clear with time. I also know it should NOT be that cloudy to begin with. Maybe Moss and a longer mash will help in the future.

Any other ideas?

 

[eastoak]

Well, I am 2-3 batches along and still the same issue. What is funny is that I brewed a wheat beer just to say screw you to the cloudiness and it was probably my clearest lately. I just did a hoppy red ale and it is very cloudy. I actually used a clearing concoction from the brew store and it did nothing. I did it before I dry hopped, so that might have been the issue.

I brew with a propane burner with a very hard boil. I mash for over an hour in a cube cooler. I use a wort chiller. This one has been in the fermenter for 3+ weeks and now in the keg for 2-3 days. I am headed off for Christmas. I'll see if it is time that it needs.

I am thinking it might be my crush. I use a corona mill and hit it with a drill. This batch I even ran through twice. . . maybe too fine?

Or it could be something I am doing with my mash. . . I am at a loss there. I may go back to BIAB and see if that helps. I skipped out of BIAB because I was having such a hard time keeping a stable mash temp. I'll have to give it a try on my new stove and see if I can fix that.

I do not use Irish moss. Mostly because I forget to add it. I am going to add that next time. The last beer I used gelatin and after two doses, it had only marginally cleared up. After 2 weeks in the keg, it was much clearer.

Long story short, I know it will clear with time. I also know it should NOT be that cloudy to begin with. Maybe Moss and a longer mash will help in the future.

Any other ideas?

when is it cloudy, in the bottle/keg? it has nothing to do with your crush or that it's not BIAB. using whirlfloc really does help clear the wort in the kettle but you can still have cloudy beer in the glass.

 

[Brewsit]

For Pete's sake, use some whirlfloc or irish moss 5-10 min from the end of your boil. If you don't have any other issues, it will help clear your beer very quickly. If the proteins don't coagulate then they could stay in suspension indefinitely. I've got a beer that I forgot to add a whirlfloc tablet to that I brewed 8 months ago, it's still moderately hazy, never cleared. On the other side, I have two beers that I did more recently that both cleared within days of kegging, one of those being a huge IPA and the other a pumpkin beer that had everything going against it as far as being cloudy... both crystal clear. If it's cloudy coming out of the fermenter, during the boil, etc, that's normal. Toss in one of those tablets (they're cheap, too!) and you might find all of your problems go away.

 

[Yooper]

Generally, incomplete conversion is the only thing I can think of that would cause persistent cloudiness like that. Do you do any iodine testing?

How is the wort, preboil and post boil? My wort is really clear going into the kettle, and clear out of the kettle with a good hot break and cold break.

I'm wondering mostly if the mash pH and kettle pH are too high, and that's causing the issue. What is your water like, and do you do any mash or kettle pH testing?

 

[tokerlund]

I've not done mash or kettle PH. My conversion, when I have bothered to calculate it, is about 65% to 70ish%. It isn't great, but I figured that would improve with time. I have not done iodine testing. When I did extracts, this was never an issue. I used to laugh at people that talked about cloudy beers, because even my wheat beers came out crystal. It has been a year or more, but my first 2-3 all grain batches were not an issue. . . at least to memory. I did my first Zombie Dust clone and it was clear, everybody loved it. I tried to do it again, after 2-3 batches and it came out cloudy. Been a problem since last April. The reason I hit on BIAB and my mashing is, my first 2-3 batches after getting my all-grain set-up were done BIAB. I switched to mashing in my igloo cube cooler because I struggled with getting a constant temp (in North Dakota in the winter that can be hard).

I am hell bent on adding Irish Moss from now on to see if that does anything. I will try and pick up some Whirlflock too.

The beer tastes great, and eventually it improves some. . . to the point where it is still noticeable, but not 'OMG what is wrong with you beer, I won't drink that' level. Really it is about presentation, more of an annoyance than anything. That is probably why I haven't done more sooner. I just got a bit more frustrated after I tried some things and notices no improvement.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Yooper]

What I would do is an experiment just once. Use RO water (from the big "water machine" at a grocery store or Walmart) or distilled water. Use a spreadsheet to guestimate the probable mash pH and we can easily help with that.

Get your mash pH to 5.4-5.5. I'd also try using some iodine to test for complete conversion.

I'm guessing here, but I think there is a problem with mash pH, leading to starch haze due to the incomplete conversion. If you fix the haze in one batch by using RO water (or distilled), then you know for certainty that is the issue and can either live with it if the beer tastes good or fix it by dealing with water chemistry. I really do think that is the issue.

 

[arborman]

While we are on the subject:

Chill haze is listed as the top reason for cloudy beer by Palmer. Not chilling quickly enough.

So, what gives with hop stands now? Do you just expect cloudy beer from doing hop stands?

I did a Fixed Gear clone, and did a 45 min hop stand, and this beer is very cloudy, even after two weeks in the keg and cold crashing in my fermentor for 4 days.

Now I am really confused

 

[eastoak]

While we are on the subject:

Chill haze is listed as the top reason for cloudy beer by Palmer. Not chilling quickly enough.

So, what gives with hop stands now? Do you just expect cloudy beer from doing hop stands?

I did a Fixed Gear clone, and did a 45 min hop stand, and this beer is very cloudy, even after two weeks in the keg and cold crashing in my fermentor for 4 days.

Now I am really confused

dry hopping with large amounts of hops can make a beer hazy too. i don't worry about it at all as long as it tastes good since they always clear after being in the keg for a couple of weeks. the most important standard to me is the taste, i can't taste the clarity.

 

[bd2xu]

I agree some cloudiness is not bad, depending on the style. You would not really want anything but a clear Pilsner, for example. I have to say for me though a really cloudy beer turns me off and even if you can't taste the clarity it takes away from from the overall experience.

 

[tokerlund]

OK:

This time around I

- Researched an appropriate mash schedule for this beer
- pre-heated my mash tun
- hit my strike temp (But ended up below my target mash tem)
- Let it sit for 30min at about 138 (protein rest?)
- Warmed it up to 150 for the last 60 min
- Tested PH of mash = 5.6


I plan to:
- Test for starch conversion with Idophor
- Add Irish Moss
- Look into whirlflock

 

[tokerlund]

Well just an update. I did a batch of All Grain followed by an extract. For the all grain I took extra special efforts to clean, and measure everything. Even when I forgot the Irish Moss, it turned out crystal clear. I am thinking I just wasn't mashing at the right temps long enough.

Thanks for all of the help. I fell less crazy now!

 

[skitter]

Thanks for the info! Ive been trying to do my BIAB temps at 150, by the end of the 60 minutes its usually only down to 148, I did a after boil chill that took about 15 minutes in an ice bath. May have to start using irish moss or something, I had NO trub... I assume this means everything was still in suspension..

Sent from my Sony Tablet S using Home Brew mobile app

 

[tokerlund]

OK, made two batches of All-Grain recently. One came out clear as a bell after much effort. Then just today I did another and it was very cloudy coming through the siphon. So here are the things that I did differently

1st clear batch
Precisely measured mash water and sparge water for temp and amount.

2nd cloudy batch
Accidentally ran the numbers for my mash schedule with '5 gallons' as the target instead of 6 gallons. So, when my brew pot was about a gallon short, I added 150* water (about 1.5 gallons) as a late sparge.


I noticed that the wort was clear as a bell when it went from mash tun to brew pot. But when it went from brew pot to fermenter, it was cloudy as hell. I am beginning to think that I didn't properly hit my hot break?

I added the wort to the brew pot about a gallon at a time as it drained from the mash tun. I didn't start the 60 minute timer for the brew until all 7 gallons was in the brew pot. Could this gradual adding of wort be part of my problem?

This time I did add 1 tsp of Irish Moss with about 10 min to go. Hopefully that will help. This batch should also sit for a good month in the fermenter and should get several weeks in the keg before it gets tapped. Hopefully that will help it clear. This is my first attempt at my Surly Furious Clone and I was sooo excited. I thought I had solved my cloudy beer issues.

On a side note, how often/well do you clean out your mash tun and brew pot. I really hit them hard when I got my clear batch, but this time I just gave them the once over. I mean, they are clean but not sparkling. I figure it all goes into a 60 min boil so I don't work it too hard. Could this be part of the issue?

 

[wtfDean]

my beer is usually more cloudy going into the fermenter because of hop and break material that gets sucked through my screen (some of that stuff is pretty fine and it's unavoidable). it will all settle once the beer has fermented, eventually becoming part of the yeast cake at the bottom of your bucket/carboy. i wouldn't worry yet.

i clean out my mash tun every time after i use it. i only recently started taking the weldless fittings off of it after each use as well, and i store it disassembled between uses. same for my kettle which is fitted with a weldless valve and screen. I find that when you don't take those things apart then you get some hard to clean buildup in the places where the sun don't shine.