Closed Transfer.

[sodbuster]

Alright guys, as usual I am way behind, and I am sure this has been beat to death but.... On my last brew I pulled a sample from the fermentor and was really excited, there was a complex hop flavor that disappeared once it was on tap. My method of transfer is to pull the airlock, hook a hose to the outlet and drain into a keg with the hose in the bottom so no splashing. I realize I am introducing oxygen to the fermentor as well as in the keg. Using that method am I losing my hop flavor?

 

[hotbeer]

Probably. What you are describing isn't a closed transfer.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Alright guys, as usual I am way behind, and I am sure this has been beat to death but.... On my last brew I pulled a sample from the fermentor and was really excited, there was a complex hop flavor that disappeared once it was on tap. My method of transfer is to pull the airlock, hook a hose to the outlet and drain into a keg with the hose in the bottom so no splashing. I realize I am introducing oxygen to the fermentor as well as in the keg. Using that method am I losing my hop flavor?

I suspect you will find people that say they follow your process and make excellent hoppy beers, and other that say any amount of oxygen will turn any hoppy beer to a purple oxidized mess.

Are you purging the headspace well after filling? I am not sure how many fill-purge cycles are needed to get down to reasonable oxygen levels. As long as the keg is fairly full, it is not a lot of headspace that needs to be purged.

A few years ago I moved to doing closed transfers into purged kegs. I have been tempted to try a split batch with one keg filled like your process, and one filled with a closed transfer. I guess I know that oxygen is harmful to hoppy beers, so I would rather just spend the extra $1 worth of CO2 and the extra 15 minutes and do a purge and closed transfer for all my beers.

I would also look at your entire process. If you remove a bucket lid a few times to take gravity readings and add dry hops, then the little bit of oxygen picked up during the transfer is probably not the biggest source of oxidation.

 

[sodbuster]

Got that @hotbeer. I described my method because I thought it would be helpful.

 

[sodbuster]

Thanks @CascadesBrewer i cram the kegs full and purge, also I use a conical so the beer is only exposed to o2 when I keg. Your final comment has me wondering if it’s worth the hassle.

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks @CascadesBrewer i cram the kegs full and purge, also I use a conical so the beer is only exposed to o2 when I keg. Your final comment has me wondering if it’s worth the hassle.

It's a matter of perspective and goals... If your goal is just to make beer, and how it tastes isn't important, that's fine.. If you want a specific taste though, please don't think of the labour of reducing or eliminating O2 as a 'hassle' when for some specific brews, ie: hoppy beer, it is a necessity. There's plenty of methods and threads on here for the purging of kegs and O2 free transfers. Take the time to find one that works for you and you'll be rewarded for your efforts.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm a bit confused. You ferment in a conical. You keg. You purge. So you're doing most of the hard parts of minimizing O2 exposure but you think doing a closed transfer from FV to keg is too much hassle?

 

[sodbuster]

I'm a bit confused. You ferment in a conical. You keg. You purge. So you're doing most of the hard parts of minimizing O2 exposure but you think doing a closed transfer from FV to keg is too much hassle?

Hey, you have to draw a line somewhere! At a minimum I would need another co2 tank and regulator. I mostly make ales that are intended to be IPA

 

[mac_1103]

At a minimum I would need another co2 tank and regulator.

Not necessarily. You could just gravity feed from FV to keg and return gas from keg to FV. You're undoing a lot (most?) of the good of purging the keg by opening the FV to transfer.

 

[Broken Crow]

Hey, you have to draw a line somewhere! At a minimum I would need another co2 tank and regulator. I mostly make ales that are intended to be IPA

Since you already have one CO2 tank and regulator, it could be worth your time to just put a spare line on it for utility purposes, such as purging. Since you already gravity-feed your transfers, the only harware additon to your fermenter needs be a ball lock post on the lid, perhaps in place of the airlock. You can then connect the gas post on the recieving keg to the gas post on the fermenter for a closed-loop transfer.
Just a thought.
..here's the cost:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/bulkheadblg.htm

 

[sodbuster]

@mac_1103 I never thought about filling the keg through the ball lock... that works?

 

[eliastheodosis]

@mac_1103 I never thought about filling the keg through the ball lock... that works?

Absolutely it works. Only caveat is you can't push much hops matter through there. At least in my experience. Pull mostly clean beer or you're gonna have a bad day. Closed transfer would be the way to go, though. @CascadesBrewer is right that if you're opening the lid after you reach terminal then you're oxidizing it anyway. If you're brewing mostly IPAs then the answer can't be to throw up your hands on that, though, or you're probably never going to love them.

Figure out an oxygen free way to pull samples and add dry hops or just always dry hop before terminal so the yeast can scavenge the O2. Do a closed transfer and be sure to purge all your lines before starting that transfer. Again, if you're brewing IPAs then figuring out ways to do those things is probably going to make the single biggest difference in your beer. For example, getting high quality hops is great...but it doesn't matter if the beer gets oxidized.

I started out closed transfers by drilling a hole in a speidel cap, the little lid that screws onto the hole where the bung and airlock would go. I put a ball lock post on that. You can run a blowoff from the top post into a bucket for fermentation. Then pop that when done and do a closed loop from the spigot to the keg for liquid and then from the keg to the top post on the speidel for gas.

1. Fill the line from the spigot to the liquid out post with sanitizer
2. Purge the gas line from the keg before hooking to the fermentor
3. Then hook up gas to fermentor first to pressurize the headspace
4. Then purge the liquid line into a cup to clear sanitizer
5. Hook liquid to the keg and you're off to the (pretty slow) races.

Use QDs on the ends of all the lines, of course. You push all the air out and replace it with CO2. You push all the sanitizer out and replace it with beer coming out. Little to no O2 and my IPAs drink well for 4-6 weeks unless I screw something up.

 

[redrocker652002]

I am sure my way is the most rudimentary, but I simply unhook the ball lock from my gas line on my CO2 can, and push it thru the bung at the top of me bucket. I add a small amount of gas to the bucket, just enough to see the lid bulge a bit, connect the spigot of my bucket to my out post on my keg and open. The keg has been sanitized with starsan and is purged and full of CO2. I open the PRV valve on the keg, open the spigot and let the beer flow. I am thinking of grabbing another used keg and trying to ferment in the keg and do a closed transfer from fermenting keg to serving, but so far, that is what has worked. But, in contrast, I have seen may, Including Claw Hammer and others, just run a line into the keg from the fermenter and let gravity do it's thing. I think sometimes I over complicate things when I don't have to. RR

 

[eliastheodosis]

I think sometimes I over complicate things when I don't have to

Don't we all? Yours sounds not too far off from mine. I always try to keep in mind how little beer I'm making. If even some O2 slips in then the amount of that O2 proportionate to the beer itself it not actually that small. The more O2 the less hop flavor. I don't want to buy all the stuff and go through all the work just to fumble it at the finish line. Both hands on the ball!

 

[mac_1103]

@mac_1103 I never thought about filling the keg through the ball lock... that works?

Yes. Already explained better than I could have.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I mocked up the setup I used to do and took some pics to supplement those steps I mentioned. First is for fermentations with blowoff. Then I pop off that blowoff hose, clean and sanitize it, change QDs, and it becomes the liquid line for my closed transfer. Fill it with sanitizer and clamp it on. It took me a couple rocky transfers before I got my SOP ironed out but then it worked like a charm. Still do it for some beers. The speidel will hold a couple PSI so I use a spunding valve to drop it down to about that amount. You can purge the CO2 line from the keg with the CO2 that's in the keg. Then hook it all up. GAS FIRST. It's slow but it works.

 

[sodbuster]

Thanks guys. I will try it on a few batches. My only hesitation is that I rarely clean kegs and I also make 3-5 batches in my conical before clean out, so sanitation would be key.

 

[sodbuster]

thanks @eliastheodosis nice visual.

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks guys. I will try it on a few batches. My only hesitation is that I rarely clean kegs and I also make 3-5 batches in my conical before clean out, so sanitation would be key.

Ok... Awkward... But I'm gonna say what a lot of readers are thinking;
Maybe that's where your flavour is going. You should really wash and sanitze your kegs between uses.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Maybe that's where your flavour is going

We all learn as we go, so no need for it to be awkward @sodbuster he's making a good point, though, and he's saying it to help.

Everything you read so far about oxygen is totally true and can/will kill hop flavor. If we're reading your post right then not cleaning and sanitizing your fermentor/kegs could also easily be causing you some flavor problems. My guess is that it's still not why your hop flavor is disappearing. I still bet on the oxidation. You're mixing a lot of old yeast, trub, and hop matter from those previous batches into the fresh IPA you're brewing, though. That's almost surely going to affect the flavor. The more you let it go the more likely it's going to turn into some thing worse like a full blown infection. Let us know if we're off base here.

Even though I'm betting on oxidation being the problem I would still definitely address the cleaning and sanitizing first. If you want to make the cleaning easier then make sure your processes are tight. Rinse everything before it dries off. Make sure you have the tools handy to break stuff down and rinse it all right away. Then soaking stuff in some PBW and a light wipe are usually all you need. Nobody on here cleans/sanitizes because it's fun. We all do it because it's necessary!

 

[sodbuster]

We all learn as we go, so no need for it to be awkward @sodbuster he's making a good point, though, and he's saying it to help.

Everything you read so far about oxygen is totally true and can/will kill hop flavor. If we're reading your post right then not cleaning and sanitizing your fermentor/kegs could also easily be causing you some flavor problems. My guess is that it's still not why your hop flavor is disappearing. I still bet on the oxidation. You're mixing a lot of old yeast, trub, and hop matter from those previous batches into the fresh IPA you're brewing, though. That's almost surely going to affect the flavor. The more you let it go the more likely it's going to turn into some thing worse like a full blown infection. Let us know if we're off base here.

Even though I'm betting on oxidation being the problem I would still definitely address the cleaning and sanitizing first. If you want to make the cleaning easier then make sure your processes are tight. Rinse everything before it dries off. Make sure you have the tools handy to break stuff down and rinse it all right away. Then soaking stuff in some PBW and a light wipe are usually all you need. Nobody on here cleans/sanitizes because it's fun. We all do it because it's necessary!

I can't argue against cleanliness. I don't have any off flavors either. I know this is completely against brewing rules but here we go... as for the kegs, I keep empty ones in the kegerator or keezer until they are ready to fill, my whole thought process on kegs is they stay in a fridge so mostly safe from infection. As for the conical, I will clean and scrub everything, sanitize with starsan, then ferment a beer. after a week or so I dump the top valve to clear the dead yeast, then when I keg I dump a bit more of the dead yeast out and fill the kegs. Take the lid off and throw another batch of beer on top of the remaining yeast, sanitize the lid and gasket and were off. After about 4-5 batches I will break it down and start all over. This is another reason I wanted accurate readings on a hydrometer so I can see if the yeast is losing any of its punch. If I dry hop in the conical I use a bag, same with the keg.

I have brewed for many years but never really captured the hop flavor and aroma that I am after. Closest I got was dry hopping in the conical, but it only seemed to last through the first couple beers. Hopping the keg and I had a grassy flavor, too much.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I don't have any off flavors either. I know this is completely against brewing rules

Well, others may be less chill about this but I'm not aware of any actual rules here and I'm certainly not the brewing police. If you don't have any off flavors and it seems to work then you do you. Personally, I brew so many different styles with different flavor profiles and different yeasts that it would be a train wreck if I tried to do this. Again, if it works for you then it works for you!

If I dry hop in the conical I use a bag, same with the keg.

I have brewed for many years but never really captured the hop flavor and aroma that I am after. Closest I got was dry hopping in the conical, but it only seemed to last through the first couple beers

All of that still shouts oxidation to me. If you're cool with the rest of your process and don't think that's it then I'd go back to the O2. What you're describing is what I experienced before I tightened my protocols around oxygen. A nice hop flavor to start and then it slips between your fingers and is gone. I've hopped in bags and commando. You'll get better utilization without bags but if you bump the amount of hops some then a bag can still give you the result you want. Bags are not the reason you're getting no hop flavor. Especially if it's there to start and then falls off. Honestly, diminishing hop flavor points to one thing in my mind. I'll give you a single guess...

 

[sodbuster]

Thanks @eliastheodosis. I can see that you would need to clean out if you are constantly changing beers and yeasts... though I would probably just dump the trub out the bottom and pitch a new, lol.

 

[sodbuster]

I also don't follow recipes, there is a whole world of structured beer makin out there for me!

 

[eliastheodosis]

There is something to fit everybody with this hobby. I'd prefer to help you enjoy it than try to tell you what to do or something. You're not me anyway so I see no harm in agreeing to disagree on some stuff

Many brewers I know only brew using kits so they don't have to think about recipes. I never saw the fun in that. I made my own from day one because it seemed pointless to me otherwise. Not following a recipe at all sounds like more art than science...and I see no problem with that at all. You just find your happy place. I see dmtaylor is helping you out in that other thread too.

Good luck and cheers

 

[sodbuster]

Thanks man. ignorance is bliss. The beer I caught and lost the hop flavor on..

24lb 2row
1lb flaked oats
2lb of Crystal 20
2lb of wheat
4oz of chinook 1hr
4oz of cascade 20min
flagship A07 yeast

Went old school on the hops.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thanks man. ignorance is bliss. The beer I caught and lost the hop flavor on..

Is this batch dry hopped? One of the changes I made to get more hop character in my IPAs was...surprise...use more hops! For a 5 gallon batch of an American IPA, I am usually using around 9 to 10 oz of hops, with about 5 oz late in the boil or at flameout and another 4 oz in a dry hop charge. For a more classic APA or IPA, I like the character from an addition in the 15 to 10 minute range. For a more juicy character, I will move those hops to a hop stand.

My current go to IPA recipe was inspired by some Racer 5 clones that I found, but I have increased the hopping rate a bit.

 

[mac_1103]

All of that still shouts oxidation to me. If you're cool with the rest of your process and don't think that's it then I'd go back to the O2. What you're describing is what I experienced before I tightened my protocols around oxygen. A nice hop flavor to start and then it slips between your fingers and is gone.

I suppose you could just brew small batches and drink them real fast.

 

[eliastheodosis]

24lb 2row
1lb flaked oats
2lb of Crystal 20
2lb of wheat

Also, that's 29lbs in the grist bill... The breakdown looks right so I'm assuming that's NOT a five gallon batch. Otherwise, you might have just a sliiiight efficiency problem Scale the hop amounts mentioned here according to whatever batch size you're doing.

Is this batch dry hopped? One of the changes I made to get more hop character in my IPAs was...surprise...use more hops! For a 5 gallon batch of an American IPA, I am usually using around 9 to 10 oz of hops, with about 5 oz late in the boil or at flameout and another 4 oz in a dry hop charge. For a more classic APA or IPA, I like the character from an addition in the 15 to 10 minute range. For a more juicy character, I will move those hops to a hop stand.

I would roughly agree with the numbers that @CascadesBrewer gave above. I probably push a little more of the hops into the dry hop and a little less in the whirlpool but not by much. I sprinkle maybe an ounce in at 5 and 15 each and then add whatever at 30 to adjust the IBU and add a little more complexity. Probably about 1.5-2oz there. Mix and match for the later additions to maximize the potential from each hop. Google the survivables chart and check that out if you're interested in this. Centennial carries over some great compounds that survive boiling and fermentation and show up in the final beer. Some other hops do too. Some other hops don't. Chinook is not super high on the list and cascade is even lower. I would say push those hops a little later and blend with another hop like Centennial. The 2022 Hop and Brew School presentation gives a really beautiful, clear breakdown of these survivable compounds and what flavors they can bring to your beer.

4oz of chinook 1hr
4oz of cascade 20min

Even for a five gallon batch I would say that's not very high for overall hops used. It's a decent amount to put in the boil but also, again, I think your batch size is...big. If you're not dry hopping and the latest addition is 20 min then I would try a re-build of the hop profile depending on what you want. You'll get some flavor from the 20 min addition but nothing super punchy. I don't know what you're looking for exactly, but if you're drinking modern IPAs and wondering why yours doesn't match up then this is why. I feel annoying continuing to say this, but...all the more reason to tighten up on your oxygen protocols if possible. Hops are pretty expensive and if whatever flavor you have is diminishing then it's almost assuredly oxidation eating it up. Without addressing that then adding more hops is likely just going to make you a similar beer at a higher cost for ingredients

Went old school on the hops

I see absolutely no problems here. Carry on... At least they're less expensive that whatever new hotness is getting printed on cans tomorrow.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Side question for those who are doing pressure transfers using your CO2 tank. What pressure are you transferring beer to your serving keg? Reason I ask is that I recently brewed a hoppy pale ale and fermented in a keg, where the blowoff smelled wonderful, but the final product tasted underwhelming. I pressure transferred it to a dry-hop keg for a couple days, and then pressure transferred to a serving keg, with a blowoff attached to the gas in port. I wasn't really watching what psi I transferred, but I'm guessing around 10psi. Is that too high and could it cause a lot of the aromatics and hop flavor to blow off?

I can give hop types and quantities when I get home and can check Beersmith.