Closed Transfer.

[DuncB]

I try and get my fermenting keg / fermentasaurus at the serving vols pressure.
I get the purged ( with ferment gas in my case) receiving keg at the same pressure as the fermenter during the purge phase.

This means the receiving keg is going to be at a higher pressure than the fermenting keg after cold crash.
When doing closed transfer the excess gas equalises with the ferment keg and then it stays balanced throughout the closed transfer, because it's a balanced siphon of liquid out and liquid in with gas displacing to keep it all going.

But regarding the aroma that is volatilised hop aroma in the headspace. It will always try and stay in balance some in liquid and some in gas.
Therefore if you double the headspace then more volatiles will come out of the beer to form equilibrium.
This may well be why aroma decays as the keg is drunk, perhaps " bag " served beers in disposable kegs such as key kegs hang onto their aroma and hence flavour for longer. I can't test this theory but seems possible.

 

[eliastheodosis]

If you're pushing into a keg and you've got a blowoff or you're pulling the PRV then you're going to lose a bunch of aromatics. No way around it. I've been stuck in a crap situation a couple time doing that for IPAs. They always seem a little more muted to me. They are still tasty and I don't lose more hop flavor over time than I would expect, but the starting point seems lower for sure. Aroma walks hand in hand with flavor.

If everything works out and my sending vessel can take the pressure I just make sure the pressure is low on the receiving vessel and push slow with just enough PSI to get the job done. Honestly, not something I've done all that much, though.

 

[doug293cz]

Side question for those who are doing pressure transfers using your CO2 tank. What pressure are you transferring beer to your serving keg? Reason I ask is that I recently brewed a hoppy pale ale and fermented in a keg, where the blowoff smelled wonderful, but the final product tasted underwhelming. I pressure transferred it to a dry-hop keg for a couple days, and then pressure transferred to a serving keg, with a blowoff attached to the gas in port. I wasn't really watching what psi I transferred, but I'm guessing around 10psi. Is that too high and could it cause a lot of the aromatics and hop flavor to blow off?

I can give hop types and quantities when I get home and can check Beersmith.

Transfer pressure is mostly going to affect the flow rate. You aren't flowing excess CO2 thru the beer during transfer, no matter what pressure you use, so I don't think transfer pressure will have any type of "sweep out the hop flavor" effect. If you blew excess CO2 thru the system after liquid transfer was complete, that might be a different story.

Brew on

 

[eliastheodosis]

Transfer pressure is mostly going to affect the flow rate. You aren't flowing excess CO2 thru the beer during transfer, no matter what pressure you use, so I don't think transfer pressure will have any type of "sweep out the hop flavor" effect.

Totally agreed! If he's popping the top on the receiving keg he's still pushing out some of those volatile aromatics, though, right? Maybe I'm missing something, though. I'm reading it that he's pushing into the liquid port of the receiving keg and leaving the gas port of the same keg open with a blowoff...

 

[BongoYodeler]

Totally agreed! If he's popping the top on the receiving keg he's still pushing out some of those volatile aromatics, though, right? Maybe I'm missing something, though. I'm reading it that he's pushing into the liquid port of the receiving keg and leaving the gas port of the same keg open with a blowoff...

Yes. Gas port of the receiving keg with a blowoff from the gas QD and into a container of StarSan.

 

[doug293cz]

Totally agreed! If he's popping the top on the receiving keg he's still pushing out some of those volatile aromatics, though, right? Maybe I'm missing something, though. I'm reading it that he's pushing into the liquid port of the receiving keg and leaving the gas port of the same keg open with a blowoff...

Yes, you will lose whatever hop volatiles are in the receiving keg headspace. But that is going to happen no matter what you do.

An argument could be made that the hop volatiles don't have time to come to equilibrium between the beer and the headspace during the transfer time, meaning the longer the transfer takes, the more hop volatiles can escape into the headspace, and eventually out the vent. If this is the case, then using higher pressure to transfer faster, would lessen the amount of volatiles lost during transfer.

Brew on

 

[sodbuster]

Is this batch dry hopped? One of the changes I made to get more hop character in my IPAs was...surprise...use more hops! For a 5 gallon batch of an American IPA, I am usually using around 9 to 10 oz of hops, with about 5 oz late in the boil or at flameout and another 4 oz in a dry hop charge. For a more classic APA or IPA, I like the character from an addition in the 15 to 10 minute range. For a more juicy character, I will move those hops to a hop stand.

My current go to IPA recipe was inspired by some Racer 5 clones that I found, but I have increased the hopping rate a bit.

Looks like I am coming in way short on the hops... the recipes I used to follow 15 years ago would call for 1oz of this and 1oz of that so I thought I was ok. My neighbor is a hop farmer, I will see what he has or get some of the older hops from hopsdirect and pour the coals to it! Also I will reevaluate timing.

 

[eliastheodosis]

An argument could be made that the hop volatiles don't have time to come to equilibrium between the beer and the headspace during the transfer time, meaning the longer the transfer takes, the more hop volatiles can escape into the headspace, and eventually out the vent. If this is the case, then using higher pressure to transfer faster, would lessen the amount of volatiles lost during transfer

Hmm, thank you for the response. I hadn't considered that and I realize now I probably haven't thought deeply enough on this topic. I'm going to need to do some more reading and think about my procedures. I appreciate you getting back!

 

[sodbuster]

Also, that's 29lbs in the grist bill... The breakdown looks right so I'm assuming that's NOT a five gallon batch. Otherwise, you might have just a sliiiight efficiency problem Scale the hop amounts mentioned here according to whatever batch size you're doing.


I would roughly agree with the numbers that @CascadesBrewer gave above. I probably push a little more of the hops into the dry hop and a little less in the whirlpool but not by much. I sprinkle maybe an ounce in at 5 and 15 each and then add whatever at 30 to adjust the IBU and add a little more complexity. Probably about 1.5-2oz there. Mix and match for the later additions to maximize the potential from each hop. Google the survivables chart and check that out if you're interested in this. Centennial carries over some great compounds that survive boiling and fermentation and show up in the final beer. Some other hops do too. Some other hops don't. Chinook is not super high on the list and cascade is even lower. I would say push those hops a little later and blend with another hop like Centennial. The 2022 Hop and Brew School presentation gives a really beautiful, clear breakdown of these survivable compounds and what flavors they can bring to your beer.


Even for a five gallon batch I would say that's not very high for overall hops used. It's a decent amount to put in the boil but also, again, I think your batch size is...big. If you're not dry hopping and the latest addition is 20 min then I would try a re-build of the hop profile depending on what you want. You'll get some flavor from the 20 min addition but nothing super punchy. I don't know what you're looking for exactly, but if you're drinking modern IPAs and wondering why yours doesn't match up then this is why. I feel annoying continuing to say this, but...all the more reason to tighten up on your oxygen protocols if possible. Hops are pretty expensive and if whatever flavor you have is diminishing then it's almost assuredly oxidation eating it up. Without addressing that then adding more hops is likely just going to make you a similar beer at a higher cost for ingredients


I see absolutely no problems here. Carry on... At least they're less expensive that whatever new hotness is getting printed on cans tomorrow.

I shoot for 14+ gallon boil with a steam condenser lid and 13 into the conical. I split what I brew with a older friend and almost never buy beer. It seems like I should add way more hops and go for a co2 transfer.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Looks like I am coming in way short on the hops... the recipes I used to follow 15 years ago would call for 1oz of this and 1oz of that so I thought I was ok. My neighbor is a hop farmer, I will see what he has or get some of the older hops from hopsdirect and pour the coals to it! Also I will reevaluate timing.

Yeah, I can't say from direct experience but I think it's safe to say it's a whole different IPA world now in comparison to 15 years ago. What you're brewing right now might be totally fine, but just from a very different world

Good luck with your adventures. Sounds like you're in for some fun!

 

[sodbuster]

Yeah, I can't say from direct experience but I think it's safe to say it's a whole different IPA world now in comparison to 15 years ago. What you're brewing right now might be totally fine, but just from a very different world

Good luck with your adventures. Sounds like you're in for some fun!

It has been a rewarding journey, I have been brewing all along all these years with turkey burners and a cooler but last summer I built a electric brewery in our basement. My BIL got me started and he still brews so its fun to bounce ideas off of him too.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hey, you have to draw a line somewhere! At a minimum I would need another co2 tank and regulator. I mostly make ales that are intended to be IPA

Draw the line when you don't find hop aroma is gone after kegging. IPA is the style that suffers the earliest when oxidation is a problem. In fact there are only a few styles were a little oxidation is somewhat acceptable at low levels, but even then no.

While it's gross that you don't clean the kegs between uses, if you're going to continue that way don't even open the keg because it's already full of CO2 and likely no oxygen. However, you still need to put CO2 on the FV lid to keep air from sucking in during the transfer.

 

[sodbuster]

Draw the line when you don't find hop aroma is gone after kegging. IPA is the style that suffers the earliest when oxidation is a problem. In fact there are only a few styles were a little oxidation is somewhat acceptable at low levels, but even then no.

While it's gross that you don't clean the kegs between uses, if you're going to continue that way don't even open the keg because it's already full of CO2 and likely no oxygen. However, you still need to put CO2 on the FV lid to keep air from sucking in during the transfer.

I was thinking along those lines as far as the keg being full of c02. But gross? I have a keg that was recently full of beer, always been chilled and filled back up with beer from a sanitation stand point we are good. Gross? I am a farmer, pm me and we can talk gross.

 

[Bobby_M]

I was thinking along those lines as far as the keg being full of c02. But gross? I have a keg that was recently full of beer, always been chilled and filled back up with beer from a sanitation stand point we are good. Gross? I am a farmer, pm me and we can talk gross.

The first mistaken assumption is that the first beer you put in the keg after cleaning has zero bacteria. The second is that bacteria doesn't grow at fridge temps. Then there's the layer of sludge that settles to the bottom. If you don't clean that out, you're redistributing it into the next beer and so on.
If you're not noticing off flavors, I guess keep doing that? Just because there are more disgusting things one could be exposed to doesn't negate cleanliness where it can be achieved. Stories like this make me second guess blindly judging homebrews at competitions. They have a section for the entrant to list possible allergens in the beer but nothing that says "do you ever clean your equipment?".

 

[sodbuster]

The first mistaken assumption is that the first beer you put in the keg after cleaning has zero bacteria. The second is that bacteria doesn't grow at fridge temps. Then there's the layer of sludge that settles to the bottom. If you don't clean that out, you're redistributing it into the next beer and so on.
If you're not noticing off flavors, I guess keep doing that? Just because there are more disgusting things one could be exposed to doesn't negate cleanliness where it can be achieved. Stories like this make me second guess blindly judging homebrews at competitions. They have a section for the entrant to list possible allergens in the beer but nothing that says "do you ever clean your equipment?".

1st I didn’t assume anything. 2nd, obviously bacteria grows at fridge temperature. Less likely with alcohol but whatever. 3rd, not the same sludge that was in the keg you just drank out of!? Ohh the horror! 4th you said it was gross, I guess I was trying to show you that if you think re using a keg is gross you live a sheltered life. Finally I wouldn’t personally enter a beer in a homebrew competition, why do I give a hoot what you think of my beer.

 

[mac_1103]

Less likely with alcohol but whatever.

Most bacteria laugh at the concentration of alcohol in most beer. There's a reason that alcohol-based sanitizers are 70% and not 7%.

 

[sodbuster]

I dunno guys, we are straying deep into the weeds here. I knew I was going to irk half the forum by mentioning I don't always clean my kegs in between brews. I would start a thread called "should I sanitize kegs between brews" If I was thinking about trying it for the first time but have been doing it for years.
The same with cleaning my conical, I could take it off the stand, a already proven sanitized vessel, rinse it out, disassemble, sponge it all, mix a big ole batch of starsan, put it all back together, soak it, put another pale ale in it and pitch the same yeast I just took out and for what gain? Why would I waste a hour cleaning a vessel to put a like beer and like yeast in it? I should sanitize a already sanitized space? In the 15 years or so of brewing I have had 3 brews with a off flavor, two of which I knew exactly what happened. A few months ago I had a white film formation that appeared after a initial cleaning and did not affect the taste but still had me befuddled and that one I traced back to the seal on the lid of my conical.

Has anyone had a beer spoil in a keg in a refer? And if you have maybe look at your own sanitation practices.

 

[mac_1103]

It's one thing to put the same beer into the same unopened keg over and over, but you started this thread telling us that you open your FV to do transfers. That means it's no longer a "proven sanitized vessel" whether you get away with it or not. It's not like I actually care about your sanitation practices, but I guess I'm just a stickler when it comes to things like that, or thinking that 5-10% ABV has disinfectant properties. Something I should have gotten over years ago I know, but I just can't help myself.

 

[Gfei]

I mocked up the setup I used to do and took some pics to supplement those steps I mentioned. First is for fermentations with blowoff. Then I pop off that blowoff hose, clean and sanitize it, change QDs, and it becomes the liquid line for my closed transfer. Fill it with sanitizer and clamp it on. It took me a couple rocky transfers before I got my SOP ironed out but then it worked like a charm. Still do it for some beers. The speidel will hold a couple PSI so I use a spunding valve to drop it down to about that amount. You can purge the CO2 line from the keg with the CO2 that's in the keg. Then hook it all up. GAS FIRST. It's slow but it works.


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Is there a trick to this? Last fine I tried I couldn't get any flow from FV to keg. Ended up having to push with CO2 from a tank.

 

[sodbuster]

You

It's one thing to put the same beer into the same unopened keg over and over, but you started this thread telling us that you open your FV to do transfers. That means it's no longer a "proven sanitized vessel" whether you get away with it or not. It's not like I actually care about your sanitation practices, but I guess I'm just a stickler when it comes to things like that, or thinking that 5-10% ABV has disinfectant properties. Something I should have gotten over years ago I know, but I just can't help myself.

for arguments sake, if you take a glass of sweet tea, and you take a glass sweet tea that is 6% alcohol and set them side by side on your counter they would spoil at the exact same time?

 

[mac_1103]

Exact same time? Probably not. But they probably wouldn't spoil at the exact same time even if you left out the alcohol. Alcohol inhibits bacterial growth primarily by disrupting membranes. 6% alcohol in water does not disrupt membranes.

Edit - I mean think about it... if low concentrations of ethanol were anti-bacterial, there would be no such thing as wine vinegar or sour beer.

 

[sodbuster]

Exact same time? Probably not. But they probably wouldn't spoil at the exact same time even if you left out the alcohol. Alcohol inhibits bacterial growth primarily by disrupting membranes. 6% alcohol in water does not disrupt membranes.

Edit - I mean think about it... if low concentrations of ethanol were anti-bacterial, there would be no such thing as wine vinegar or sour beer.

Yes you are right, alcohol does not inhibit bacteria growth.

 

[eliastheodosis]

@sodbuster, I think you'll notice a consistent thread of thought here from folks. Specifically, the thought that with your current process those kegs and that fermentor are almost surely not staying sanitized. It's an open forum and anybody can add their own adjectives for how your process makes them feel. They most certainly will.

However, I hope you can look past that and see the overall intention to help. I also hope you can see the wisdom of a collection of pretty different people all managing to agree on one thing. I have taken samples through multiple stages of the process from yeast pitching to empty keg and analyzed them. I feel like I am ridiculously fastidious about my process and I plate out cultures pretty commonly. My wife is a professor that runs a microbiology lab at a university and she helps me evaluate those cultures. I still sometimes find bugs I don't want in there. They might not ruin your beer, but they are almost surely there in some capacity.

I already mentioned I'm not here to argue with you at all or try to tell you what to do, either. You do what works for you and makes you happy. I'm doing the same. I don't particularly care how your beer tastes if you're enjoying it. I'm just here to say I'd bet dollars to donuts you're not dealing with one single living species in either of those vessels. If your process is good and you can go 3+ turns without noticing an off flavor then it works for you. There is no arguing that, at least, since you're the final judge there.

If you feel like your beer can improve after you adjust your recipe and work on closed transfers then I would turn your attention to what people are discussing here, though. It could improve your beer. If you have struggling yeast or competing bacteria those are not going to make the beer taste better. If you've got extra stuff in the bottom of that keg...same thing. Maybe it's not having a noticeable impact for you but, again, if you feel like the beer can improve then those are places to look.

Also, howdy from someone that grew up in the far southwest tip of Indiana. I grew up shoveling , slaughtering hogs, and slinging hay bales. Do your thing and live your life, man. I'd drink your dang beer some day if you're on the way from Chicago to my wife's parents in Cleveland. If I liked it then it still wouldn't change my mind a bit on what I've said above. I'm glad to have you

 

[eliastheodosis]

Is there a trick to this? Last fine I tried I couldn't get any flow from FV to keg. Ended up having to push with CO2 from a tank.

No crazy trick that I know. Keep the FV well above the keg, keep a couple PSI in the keg, and let it go. It's not super fast at all but not much to be done about that without changing the setup more drastically. If your FV can tolerate a couple PSI then you can make it happen, though.

It probably won't go super smoothly the first couple times but that's the same with most new processes. You do the experiment to figure out how to do the experiment. Once you get a rhythm you'll be fine. Good luck!

 

[sodbuster]

@sodbuster, I think you'll notice a consistent thread of thought here from folks. Specifically, the thought that with your current process those kegs and that fermentor are almost surely not staying sanitized. It's an open forum and anybody can add their own adjectives for how your process makes them feel. They most certainly will.

I hear you man and I appreciate the sentiment, if I’m on what seems like the last home brewing forum 20 years after the last home brewing (rush)? I should expect to be talking to some hardcore guys set in their ways. I am not saying that sanitizing kegs is crazy, I am saying I don’t do it every brew and haven’t had any problems. I have sanitized kegs after every beer for years and over the years realized it was not necessary. For me.

However, I hope you can look past that and see the overall intention to help. I also hope you can see the wisdom of a collection of pretty different people all managing to agree on one thing. I have taken samples through multiple stages of the process from yeast pitching to empty keg and analyzed them. I feel like I am ridiculously fastidious about my process and I plate out cultures pretty commonly. My wife is a professor that runs a microbiology lab at a university and she helps me evaluate those cultures. I still sometimes find bugs I don't want in there. They might not ruin your beer, but they are almost surely there in some capacity.

I hear that as well, again you are in waaay deep. Noted that I may not have solely the intended yeast in my brew but again if I can’t or my friends can’t taste a rando strain what is the worry? Unless you are making beer in a vacuum in a lab how can it be perfect?

I already mentioned I'm not here to argue with you at all or try to tell you what to do, either. You do what works for you and makes you happy. I'm doing the same. I don't particularly care how your beer tastes if you're enjoying it. I'm just here to say I'd bet dollars to donuts you're not dealing with one single living species in either of those vessels. If your process is good and you can go 3+ turns without noticing an off flavor then it works for you. There is no arguing that, at least, since you're the final judge there.

Agree thank you.

If you feel like your beer can improve after you adjust your recipe and work on closed transfers then I would turn your attention to what people are discussing here, though. It could improve your beer. If you have struggling yeast or competing bacteria those are not going to make the beer taste better. If you've got extra stuff in the bottom of that keg...same thing. Maybe it's not having a noticeable impact for you but, again, if you feel like the beer can improve then those are places to look.

I haven’t been struggling with competing bacteria. I’ve brewed for 15 years, just because I started posting on this forum doesn’t mean it’s my first rodeo. I’ve been brewing my way all those years making great beer without asking anyone for assistance on this forum. I cure charcuterie, salami, pepperoni, sujuk, chorizo, make mead with my own honey 35 hives, melomel with my fruit trees, ferment hot sauce from my peppers, raise my own hogs, cure bacon, hams, raise my own broiler chickens, laying hens, turkeys, tap my maple trees, smoke meats, can my own tomatoes, peppers, grow
my garlic, onions, etc. my green house is 30x96. I farm 100s of acres, corn, wheat, beans, hay. I am a woodworker, mechanic, welder…
I took a sample from my conical and it had a great complex hop flavor, after it was in the keg it was gone. That’s it.

Also, howdy from someone that grew up in the far southwest tip of Indiana. I grew up shoveling , slaughtering hogs, and slinging hay bales. Do your thing and live your life, man. I'd drink your dang beer some day if you're on the way from Chicago to my wife's parents in Cleveland. If I liked it then it still wouldn't change my mind a bit on what I've said above. I'm glad to have you

 

[sodbuster]

@eliastheodosis i grew up in Alaska 18 year shoveling snow! If you are ever near Columbus Ohio I would love to have you and family, let me know I will rinse a keg out just for you sir. Also @mac_1103 i hope there are no hard feelings you are obviously a very knowledgeable brewer and I hope to lean into that in the future

 

[eliastheodosis]

I will rinse a keg out just for you sir

Best thing I've read in a while

 

[eliastheodosis]

If you are ever near Columbus Ohio I would love to have you and family

Also, I skated my way through there a couple months ago during the holidays the day after that insane ice storm. We stopped counting cars in the ditch after about 35 or so of them. After that drive I skipped the beer when I got home and went straight for the whiskey.

That's right one my way from her family to my family, so just maybe I'll remember this post the next time we're taking that route.

Hopefully that storm didn't tear you up too bad. That was something else.

 

[sodbuster]

Also, I skated my way through there a couple months ago during the holidays the day after that insane ice storm. We stopped counting cars in the ditch after about 35 or so of them. After that drive I skipped the beer when I got home and went straight for the whiskey.

That's right one my way from her family to my family, so just maybe I'll remember this post the next time we're taking that route.

Hopefully that storm didn't tear you up too bad. That was something else.

We were planning to go to Texas but decided to stay home and keep everything running

 

[balrog]

Is there a trick to this? Last fine I tried I couldn't get any flow from FV to keg. Ended up having to push with CO2 from a tank.

1) I pipe the fermenting CO2 to the liquid out of the keg I will eventually use with the brew. Gas in is piped to jar of starsan to complete this complicated "air lock". After fermentation ends, I disconnect the keg and "bump" it to a few psi from the CO2 tank for a little positive pressure (to be used later).
2) at kegging time, I take a line from my CO2 tank, barely turned on, low volume gas flow, and I stick it in the airlock hole before I open the ferment vessel (bucket, big mouth bubbler).
3) I hook up my autosiphon to a liquid out quick disconnect, and a simple tube to gas in quick disconnect, and connect them briefly to the charged keg which blows CO2 through them to purge them.
4) Autosiphon into bucket, connected to keg's liquid out, a few pumps gets flow going, then switch the low flow CO2 from tank out for the tube from the keg to replace the bucket drained beer with displaced CO2 from keg back to bucket.