Closed Transfer.

[eliastheodosis]

Thanks for sharing, @balrog! I think I'm following most of this. Let's see

So you have a tube running from the airlock hole straight to your keg during fermentation? It goes in through the liquid post and then another hose comes off the gas post to dump into a jar of starsan? There's your airlock.

After fermentation you say you're sticking the hose from your tank into the airlock hole. If I'm following up to this point does that mean you are pulling the hose that was there during fermentation and swapping with the hose from your tank? That's what it sounds like from how I'm reading. Or maybe you're using a jumper post or something to jump the hose that's already there to your tank...

I hook up my autosiphon to a liquid out quick disconnect, and a simple tube to gas in quick disconnect, and connect them briefly to the charged keg which blows CO2 through them to purge them

You mention a simple tube that you purge in addition to the siphon. Where are you using that tube downstream? Is that what you have running to the airlock hole in the pic? So you pull the tank line from that airlock hole and then replace with that tube?

Overall, it's very interesting and clever. I guess the biggest potentials for oxygen ingress I see are the open airlock hole (if you're pulling and swapping lines) and the cracked lid. If you're purging lines and there is positive pressure in the bucket the whole time after cracking the lid then this is lower O2 than I would have expected you could get using a bucket with a cracked lid. Not sure you could do it much cleaner without adding complications like a spigot and/or bulkheads.

 

[DuncB]

Is there a trick to this? Last fine I tried I couldn't get any flow from FV to keg. Ended up having to push with CO2 from a tank.

Should give you some tips. Gravity ie height difference really helps with the siphon from fermenter to keg.
You don't need to use CO2 from the cylinder at all.

 

[sodbuster]

Also, I skated my way through there a couple months ago during the holidays the day after that insane ice storm. We stopped counting cars in the ditch after about 35 or so of them. After that drive I skipped the beer when I got home and went straight for the whiskey.

That's right one my way from her family to my family, so just maybe I'll remember this post the next time we're taking that route.

Hopefully that storm didn't tear you up too bad. That was something else.

The results of my last batch which is the third with out cleaning the conical. I did wash the kegs though, I had some extra time. Tossed a 4th brew on this yeast bed at 1.060

 

[eliastheodosis]

The results of my last batch which is the third with out cleaning the conical. I did wash the kegs though, I had some extra time. Tossed a 4th brew on this yeast bed at 1.060

Nice! Looks like solid numbers to me. Did you try a closed transfer or a new hop schedule with this one? I'm really curious how any changes make an impact on your beer.

Also, if you were really enjoying the hop flavor/aroma out of the fermentor with your original recipe then maybe reducing oxygen is all you need. Hops are expensive. I say try more to see if you like it but if you don't then that's a win in my book.

I’ve brewed for 15 years, just because I started posting on this forum doesn’t mean it’s my first rodeo.

Also, I know I'm quoting an old comment but I didn't see this until after my last response. I apologize if any of my messages came across as presumptuous. That definitely wasn't my intention. You mentioned the potential sanitation concerns when we started discussing closed loop transfer techniques and my brain leapt straight to discussing that.

Honestly, I have been thinking about this more and I just don't see the big problem. Brewing history is rich with great brewers that never had a microscope and just made beer using good sense. If people are bothered by what's left in the conical or the keg then I'd point to brewers who re-pitch on old yeast cakes and others that feed solera projects for long periods of time before draining and cleaning those barrels. John Laffler at Off Color here in Chicago mentioned in an interview that he was losing barrels worth of yield from a foeder before he finally decided to drain it. That wasn't sunshine and rainbows building up at the bottom of that foeder. I've had his beer and it's pretty far from being gross. Maybe I'm missing something, so please correct me if something here sounds stupid.

I cure charcuterie, salami, pepperoni, sujuk, chorizo, make mead with my own honey 35 hives, melomel with my fruit trees, ferment hot sauce from my peppers, raise my own hogs, cure bacon, hams, raise my own broiler chickens, laying hens, turkeys, tap my maple trees, smoke meats, can my own tomatoes, peppers, grow
my garlic, onions, etc. my green house is 30x96. I farm 100s of acres, corn, wheat, beans, hay. I am a woodworker, mechanic, welder…

Too much to mention here. My dad's a mechanic. My brother in-law farms a couple thousand acres. Mostly just corn, wheat, and soybeans. I grew up living mostly off the deer we hunted, the fish we caught, and the veggies we grew. Raised chickens but never kept hogs. I'm way too close to the city any more but I do what I can. What I can't forage or grow I try to buy from our local farmer. I show my appreciation by bringing him back applejack with his own apples and hot sauce from his own peppers (cherry bombs are the best). What he does, and you do, is some of the most important work that can be done. I'm glad to hear it sounds like you have fun and enjoy the work, because those don't all sound like money making ventures.

 

[sodbuster]

Nice! Looks like solid numbers to me. Did you try a closed transfer or a new hop schedule with this one? I'm really curious how any changes make an impact on your beer.

Also, if you were really enjoying the hop flavor/aroma out of the fermentor with your original recipe then maybe reducing oxygen is all you need. Hops are expensive. I say try more to see if you like it but if you don't then that's a win in my book.


Also, I know I'm quoting an old comment but I didn't see this until after my last response. I apologize if any of my messages came across as presumptuous. That definitely wasn't my intention. You mentioned the potential sanitation concerns when we started discussing closed loop transfer techniques and my brain leapt straight to discussing that.

Honestly, I have been thinking about this more and I just don't see the big problem. Brewing history is rich with great brewers that never had a microscope and just made beer using good sense. If people are bothered by what's left in the conical or the keg then I'd point to brewers who re-pitch on old yeast cakes and others that feed solera projects for long periods of time before draining and cleaning those barrels. John Laffler at Off Color here in Chicago mentioned in an interview that he was losing barrels worth of yield from a foeder before he finally decided to drain it. That wasn't sunshine and rainbows building up at the bottom of that foeder. I've had his beer and it's pretty far from being gross. Maybe I'm missing something, so please correct me if something here sounds stupid.


Too much to mention here. My dad's a mechanic. My brother in-law farms a couple thousand acres. Mostly just corn, wheat, and soybeans. I grew up living mostly off the deer we hunted, the fish we caught, and the veggies we grew. Raised chickens but never kept hogs. I'm way too close to the city any more but I do what I can. What I can't forage or grow I try to buy from our local farmer. I show my appreciation by bringing him back applejack with his own apples and hot sauce from his own peppers (cherry bombs are the best). What he does, and you do, is some of the most important work that can be done. I'm glad to hear it sounds like you have fun and enjoy the work, because those don't all sound like money making ventures.

Well, I was kind of in a bit of a hurry when I made this brew so no new fancy techniques, though I did use a total of 10 oz of hops. I am planning to try a closed transfer when I have more time, I am also considering moving my conical closer to the brew pot and pumping my wort into it rather than using a bucket to transfer.

I mostly think in terms of efficiency, I always have a million projects going on so if I can find a way to get something done quickly and cheaply without losing quality I will take that route. I don't want to buy yeast for every brew, the solution to that problem was to dump the yeast out of the conical and store it in a fridge until the next batch and re pitch. Again I have been doing this method for probably 5 years, but I just don't see the point in cleaning a conical that is already sanitary and re-pitching yeast that I took out last week. I am literally going to achieve the same results without an extra hour of cleaning. Same with the kegs, and I do wash the kegs and conical from time to time but the kegs sit in the fridge until empty, then they are taken out, pour fresh brew in and put back in the fridge. I have never had a beer spoil in a keg in a refer. As for the crap in the bottom, maybe 4 oz of stuff the straw did not get, it will come out in the first glass and if you think that is gross you probably don't scrape the cheese off your lasagna pan and eat it either.

I understand there any many different arts to master in brewing, and going on the last remaining home brew forum and discussing frankly any aspect of your brewing process is going to trigger someone. I probably should not be defensive or take it personally when some one attacks my process. I usually take the stance that whatever works for you works for you and maybe I can glean a tip or two from your process. The reason I went on a rant about my personal hobbies and interests was simply to show that I was not born yesterday. As a beekeeper we know there are a thousand different ways to keep bees, and if you ask two beekeepers the same question you will get 3 different answers and I think the same applies to brewing.

That is awesome that you bring your farmer hot sauce and apple jack, I bet that makes his day! I can guarantee he shares it proudly with friends and family. Fermenting hot sauce is another rabbit hole I have been down, unfortunately the older I get my stomach does not seem to be keeping up. My bil makes apple jack and I need to try it because the apples on my trees are not fit to eat!

Thanks for your sentiment and reaching back out, the brewery I built in the basement has a lot of untapped potential and I will look to you guys for tips to maximize it.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I am also considering moving my conical closer to the brew pot and pumping my wort into it rather than using a bucket to transfer.

Honestly, if you're not having sanitation problems then carrying it in a bucket probably isn't a big deal. Right as you go into fermentation I think most would say that the yeast need some oxygen and are going to pick up that extra O2 from splashing pretty much immediately. I don't think it would be an oxidation concern. Do it for sanitation or just convenience if you want, of course.

I don't want to buy yeast for every brew, the solution to that problem was to dump the yeast out of the conical and store it in a fridge until the next batch and re pitch. Again I have been doing this method for probably 5 years, but I just don't see the point in cleaning a conical that is already sanitary and re-pitching yeast that I took out last week. I am literally going to achieve the same results without an extra hour of cleaning.

I can't argue any of this, man. Really. You said you've tried it different ways. This way works and gives you similar results to other ways. Most importantly, you like those results. There is nothing I can argue about any of that. It would never, ever work for me with the stuff I do here. But, also, I could see myself doing nothing other that Saisons at some point. I could just live in that world. If you don't mess with making different beers then that's going to make your approach here that much more viable.

and if you think that is gross you probably don't scrape the cheese off your lasagna pan and eat it either.

That's great I hope you gather from my other portion above that I am not here to call you gross.

I understand there any many different arts to master in brewing, and going on the last remaining home brew forum and discussing frankly any aspect of your brewing process is going to trigger someone. I probably should not be defensive or take it personally when some one attacks my process. I usually take the stance that whatever works for you works for you and maybe I can glean a tip or two from your process.

I read this multiple times and I really agree. Yes, there are multiple different ways to both define and master an art and your approach is no more or less valid than mine. Honestly, I'm not here to attack you process and I think it's stupid if anyone is. I'm here to help others. I hope that's the same for most here. I am also here to glean tips from other. Definitely, definitely that too.

That is awesome that you bring your farmer hot sauce and apple jack, I bet that makes his day! I can guarantee he shares it proudly with friends and family. Fermenting hot sauce is another rabbit hole I have been down, unfortunately the older I get my stomach does not seem to be keeping up. My bil makes apple jack and I need to try it because the apples on my trees are not fit to eat!

I think the applejack makes his day a little more than the hot sauce, to be honest, but that could be for the same reasons as you. His whole troupe is great, though. And he's a freaking wizard with apples somehow. His stuff is all great but his apples are obviously his obsession. Definitely try the apple jack for yourself. It's not hard to do at all. Easy ferments and it just gets better with age.

For the hot sauce it took a while to get the salt ratio right to keep my ferments healthy but after that they've been really fun. I can get them to the point where they stabilize and can sit for a couple years. The flavor on a two year old cherry bomb hot sauce with garlic is deep and rich and delicious. Those sauces are definitely going to hit you with that acidity, though. I've been moving to more smoked and dried stuff as my stomach gets older. It let's me keep my mind moving with peppers, and some other stuff, while giving my stomach a break.

Thanks for your sentiment and reaching back out, the brewery I built in the basement has a lot of untapped potential and I will look to you guys for tips to maximize it.

I look forward to more discussion, man.

Also, one last parting note. If you're looking for the simplest process with the best results here with the IPA then have you thought about campden tablets? Pretty sure they could help try to reduce any potential oxidation issue. Maybe try using those at the time of kegging and then just keep your transfers from getting splashy, which you probably already do. That could be enough to get you where you want to be. Just a thought and at least a really easy, cheap thing to try while you think through any other updates to the system.

 

[beersk]

Draw the line when you don't find hop aroma is gone after kegging. IPA is the style that suffers the earliest when oxidation is a problem. In fact there are only a few styles were a little oxidation is somewhat acceptable at low levels, but even then no.

While it's gross that you don't clean the kegs between uses, if you're going to continue that way don't even open the keg because it's already full of CO2 and likely no oxygen. However, you still need to put CO2 on the FV lid to keep air from sucking in during the transfer.

You see, I don't think the little o2 exposure during transfer on top of the beer is going to have negative effects. I think if you are putting 6 gallons in your fermenter, drawing from the bottom and transferring all but the last, say, half gallon or more, the little time the surface was exposed to o2, I don't believe, would be long enough to ruin the whole batch. Obviously, I agree NO exposure is best. But having that minimal contact with o2 during a 10 minute transfer seems very negligible to me. In the keg, I can see, since you're maybe causing some turbulence during the transfer and that could come in contact with the beer you actually want to drink. I can't see o2 diffusing into ALL the liquid in a matter of minutes.

Open to thoughts on this though.