Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[RoundKid]

dang, was hoping they were the same, just depending on how you place them.

Doesn't look like amazon has anything then besides this one, that is about twice the price as the recommended M-C unit, and with an apparent level of dissatisfaction.

http://www.amazon.com/Control-Devices-Series-Pressure-Adjustable/dp/B007GDY3CU/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1420652832&sr=1-1&keywords=pressure+relief+valve+adjustable

I'm using thefrost-referenced Williams unit and also find that (admitedly, as advertised) PSI control below about 18 is sketchy. Can anyone confirmt that the M-C unit is good at 0-20?

EDIT: this M-C: http://www.mcmaster.com/#48935k25/=vd5b08 which, incidentally, FredTheNuke, claims to address vacuum and pressure…?

I have two of the Amazon valves and they work fine. The numbering on them is worthless, and fine tuning is a constant process, but overall they work and I am happy with them. They do not dismatle so soaking is the only way to clean them. When one gets clogged I have to hook it up to CO2 or my city water to break up the gunk before soaking.

 

[thefost]

I'm using thefrost-referenced Williams unit and also find that (admitedly, as advertised) PSI control below about 18 is sketchy. Can anyone confirmt that the M-C unit is good at 0-20?
?

Fost, not frost

I eventually got the unit a while after posting and had the same issue. I took the spring out and trimmed it a little bit with my dremel, and now it seems to be working much better. I just finished my first fermentation with it and am holding 15psi pretty well. A few days ago it was holding 7psi well. I don't have enough experience to fully endorse it yet, but before giving up on it you might want to try trimming the spring.

If it wasn't for the leak I have though, the mcmaster one holds the desired psi much more steadily, its no contest really

 

[itinerantbrewer]

Thanks everyone, sorry thefost. must have had my beer goggles on. and it is cold, so frost is on my mind!

 

[thefost]

Ok, for the moment I'm going to officially NOT recommend the Willliams Brewing one. Just not working consistently at low psi, even with a reduced spring.

I've got an idea for building a spunding valve, but if that doesn't work I guess I'll just have to buy another mcmaster one.

 

[nextgenxx]

My parts just came in the mail! One step closer to trying this out! 15min DIY!
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[jimyson]

I'm so happy to use this that I wait to ferment in other kegs until the assembly is available.

 

[splendidus]

I'm sure this has been addressed in this thread by now, but I haven't been able to find it with searching.

I've been using this technique for the last 4 or so 5 gal batches I've done and I love what I consider a simplified, controlled, and repeatable process. One aspect I like is the relative ease of taking samples for gravity readings and tasting (hey the beers already partially carbed...). However, I usually start taking samples after at least a week or two of fermentation when it is under 15PSI or more. When I take the samples, they tend to foam excessively. I've tried line lengths of up to 6', but I hesitate to use longer lines and potentially waste more beer during samples. Any thoughts?

 

[ekjohns]

I'm sure this has been addressed in this thread by now, but I haven't been able to find it with searching.

I've been using this technique for the last 4 or so 5 gal batches I've done and I love what I consider a simplified, controlled, and repeatable process. One aspect I like is the relative ease of taking samples for gravity readings and tasting (hey the beers already partially carbed...). However, I usually start taking samples after at least a week or two of fermentation when it is under 15PSI or more. When I take the samples, they tend to foam excessively. I've tried line lengths of up to 6', but I hesitate to use longer lines and potentially waste more beer during samples. Any thoughts?

First could you tell us about your process? I have been using pressure but have yet to get a good process. Interested on what is working for you.

Now to your questions, you problem is the beer is likely 68F which means it will be very hard to pour without foam. Going from high pressure to low the CO2 will want to rush out of solution. This is only heightened as your get warmer. Other than cooling do the beer to 34F or going from high pressure to high pressure you will likely get foam.

Actually now that I think about it, if you used the method for filling bottles from a picnic tap (under pressure) then poured that sample to your measuring device it should work!

 

[crane]

Given the fact that you need to remove all the carbonation to get an accurate gravity reading I don't mind all the foam when taking a sample as it helps speed up the process. Also seeing how I spent 10 years tasting completely flat gravity samples before switching to pressure fermenting, I don't mind that it isn't fully carbonated. Is it really worth the effort/extra loss of beer to be able to taste fully carbonated samples?

One option would be to use epoxy stir sticks. I use them in the dip tube of the keg that I use for soda water. That way I can use a 12 foot line like the rest of my taps and get a decent pour at 30psi. You might be able to fit a couple of them in the beer line.

 

[Tegra]

May be my person thoughts, but, you can get a refractometer on eBay for $20 that uses a couple drops for a test. I have a box of straws I use to sample and discard. Granted there is always the conversion to do but the time, mess and the saved beer will pay for itself after the first few batches.

Can measure boiling, chilled and carbonated.

Never going back!

Tom

 

[wbarber69]

Can you reliably use a refractometer on fermented and carbonated wort? Last time I tried the numbers were waaaaaay off.

 

[WortMonger]

They are good for estimating finishing fermentation, but you need to get a hydro sample to get good numbers. They work great before fermentation starts though.

 

[splendidus]

First could you tell us about your process? I have been using pressure but have yet to get a good process. Interested on what is working for you.

Now to your questions, you problem is the beer is likely 68F which means it will be very hard to pour without foam. Going from high pressure to low the CO2 will want to rush out of solution. This is only heightened as your get warmer. Other than cooling do the beer to 34F or going from high pressure to high pressure you will likely get foam.

Actually now that I think about it, if you used the method for filling bottles from a picnic tap (under pressure) then poured that sample to your measuring device it should work!

Basically I ferment in a 5 gal corny and use a 3 gal corny as an airlock/blow-off collector. I have a spunding valve built per the instructions in this thread attached to the 3 gal keg's gas in port. When I want to take a sample I unhook the blow-off tube connected to the gas in of the 5 gal corny. I then hook up a picnic tap to the liquid out of the 5 gal and fill a couple of mugs with foam. I then wait for the foam to subside and fill my hydro tube with beer and let it sit over night before taking the reading. I drink the remaining beer, which isn't horribly under-carbonated. I just would prefer not having to settle foam to fill the test tube. I thought there might have been a clever solution out there.

EDIT: After taking a sample, I purge the 3 gal keg and only then reattach the 5 gal keg. This avoids sucking sanitizer back into the fermenter.

 

[crane]

They are good for estimating finishing fermentation, but you need to get a hydro sample to get good numbers. They work great before fermentation starts though.

+1. After fermentation begins the refractometer never agrees with the hydrometer reading. It's close but not reliable. I built an air lock from a water filter housing and cutoff part of a sanke dip tube. Being able to watch the bubbling allows me to gauge where the fermentation is at so I usually only take one sample before cold crashing to make sure I'm at or below the final gravity I'm expecting.

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[Tegra]

+1. After fermentation begins the refractometer never agrees with the hydrometer reading. It's close but not reliable.

Please.......!!!


Basic science and math.

Yes, you do need to have the pre-ferment reading, and a calculator (beersmith has a tool for this) but my comparison with hydrometer is spot on.

To take a reading that uses almost 1% of your product, requires you to degas the sample is bordering on Luddite.

Sorry, but get with the program.

Tom

 

[crane]

To take a reading that uses almost 1% of your product, requires you to degas the sample is bordering on Luddite.

I am with the program. I use beersmith as well but it is never spot on. The refractometer reading is usually off by a few points from the hydrometer. After spending 12 years of brewing in carboys taking samples with a hydrometer multiple times, I don't think my current process of taking 1 sample is ludicrous.

Brewing 10.5 gallon batches and ending up with 2 5 gallon kegs of beer is just fine with me. Not bothered about the half gallon that goes to waste. Just call me a typical wasteful American.

 

[Tegra]

Crane:

Sorry, was not intending to bash anyone.

Just I think a refractometer is such a great thing. After you calibrate it you should be great.

If I am curious I can take a few readings during the mash, one preboil, during boil, post boil and a couple of times when topping up the fermenter to make sure I hit OG.

Then to watch the speed of fermenter with several tests out of a picnic tap and then the final test of the finished beer.

All this would only use a few ounces of product with no cooling/heating/degassing.

Bottom line, the best and cheapest step I have taken.

Tom

 

[Tegra]

+1. .....I built an air lock from a water filter housing and cutoff part of a sanke dip tube.....

Crane

Great idea!

Do you find it "cleans" the co2 as it bubbles through the water?

I am dabbling into harvesting the co2 and looking at filtering techniques.

Tom

 

[crane]

Crane

Great idea!

Do you find it "cleans" the co2 as it bubbles through the water?

I am dabbling into harvesting the co2 and looking at filtering techniques.

Tom

I'm not sure how to measure that. I have not had issues with my PRV guming up except for once when I had liquid get pushed threw it, but from other people's experience I though I would try this to prevent it. On my last 5 gallon batch I forgot to add in ferm-cap and my 7.5 gallon sanke overflowed into the airlock adding about a cup or so blow off into it. That would have been a lot worse of a mess to clean up if I didn't have this airlock.

 

[FredTheNuke]

U can use a digital refractometer accurately (with a correction equation)

 

[Tegra]

Crane had me worried that my readings were off.....

So I mixed up a sugar solution and my hydrometer and refractometer matched.
Then I grabbed a recent brew and did the same.

The hydrometer almost drove me crazy with the co2 and the sticking to the sides.
After playing with it for several minutes I got a reading that I judged to be accurate. Took a couple drops and put in the refractometer and the reading matched what Beersmith said it should.

Not to dis anyone who wants to stick with a hydrometer, but I do not see any advantage other than $20. (And I have broken enough hydrometers to pay for a refractometer is short order)

Especially if you are pressure fermenting and have to deal with co2 this is the way to go.



(I was forced due to environmental regulations to process the almost half a bottle needed for this test.)

Tom

 

[nextgenxx]

Ok I think I have my setup ready to use! I too had a housing water filter available and decided to plumb it in. Also I added a ball lock liquid post on the out side so I can hook up jumpers to cornets and also hook up a single tap faucet to take samples from. Hopefully this will all work and not have any issues. Thanks! Hope this works!!

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1426615030.172304.jpg
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[Cacaman]

I have started to use this fermentation method for my last 5 or so batches, and I have yet to look back. My best beers have come from this technique (though there have been other factors that may have also contributed to that). Nonetheless, this makes things so much simpler, and the pressure levels inhibit yeast off-flavors that would occur from my higher fermentation temps (high 70's). Pressure transfering helps with oxidation prevention, easier on my back not having to lift heavy 5 gallon carboys around, and partial/full carbonation in the primary :rockin:

Thank you wortmonger and all else who have contributed to this thread!

 

[WortMonger]

I told ya so, lol. It doesn't make better beer, it just makes making beer better... to me that is! I hope more continue to try this method and continue to improve upon it. Thank you all for contributing to this thread and technique.

 

[huckbof]

the picture in post#1 makes this look like a carbon monoxide situation,
do you get dizzy or headaches while brewing? aside from the quaffing?

 

[RoundKid]

Anyone ever kill their yeast with too much pressure?

Background: I have been pressure fermenting for almost two years with great success (thanks Wortmonger). On my current batch of Porter, a broken sanke coupler caused the gas side to not engage. I didn't know there was an issue until it started pushing beer out the sample port through the picnic tap. Switched couplers and he keg was at 60+ psi. I brought the temp up a few degrees and lowers the pressure hoping to restart fermentation. Fast forward a few days and it still seems stalled (refract reading the same). I am degassing a sample for a hydro.

Any thoughts?

 

[DrunkleJon]

Add fresh yeast?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I finally got my pressurized fermentation system working. I have a hefeweizen under pressure right now. Looking at the carbonation charts, I should be at 60 psi for this beer at fermentation temp. Seems high to me. Any suggestions?

Edit: Here's a picture of my set up:

 

[Tegra]

Homebeerbrewer:

If you get about 20psi in the head of the keg by the time you are done that should be about right.

By that time the beer will have some co2 dissolved and when you drop the temperature (close to freezing) the beer will begin to absorb the 20psi and the pressure will drop to below 10 in a few days.

This may not get you full carbonation but at least more than half done.

(I have a separate corny that I store the co2 in and then hook up during cooling, with a regulator set to about 8 psi to finish carbonating)

Tom

 

[acidrain]

Homebeerbrewer:

If you get about 20psi in the head of the keg by the time you are done that should be about right.

By that time the beer will have some co2 dissolved and when you drop the temperature (close to freezing) the beer will begin to absorb the 20psi and the pressure will drop to below 10 in a few days.

This may not get you full carbonation but at least more than half done.

(I have a separate corny that I store the co2 in and then hook up during cooling, with a regulator set to about 8 psi to finish carbonating)

Tom

What does the addition of a corny keg do?