Clarify White/Zainasheff Fermentation finishi temperature

[DannyK]

In their book "Yeast," White and Zainasheff recommend raising the temperature 4-10 degrees at the end of fermentation. I cannot find any research to back up this recommendation. Does anyone know where this came from?
I have an IPA (OG 1.074) that is on day 15 fermenting with wlpoo1. It has been slow and had a gravity of 1.022 on day 14. It is still fermenting and I want to let it keep going for a while but need my fermenter for another batch in 2 days and the IPA will need to be at room temp. Ambient room temperature is 78 right now. According to their book, finishing fermentation at 78 is okay. White Labs recommended temp for 001 is 68-73. Is there a risk at this point of exceeding 73?
Thank you.

 

[Nateo]

Most of the flavors (good and bad) are developed in the first 2-4 days of fermentation, or about 60-80% of fermentation. So about the first 2/3rds of the apparent attenuation. After that timeframe, it really won't hurt to go a lot hotter than the initial fermentation temps.

IMO those White Labs temp recommendations are useless on a home scale. Big conicals suppress fusel and ester formation. I've found about 60* to be ideal for most ales, and I'll go as low as 55* or so if I want a clean ale.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

It helps the yeast stay up and active so the reach full attenuation and clean up some of the compounds that may cause 'off' flavors.

 

[truebe]

so is the only reason to cool down your beer for conditioning to prevent staling and maybe help stuff settle? it only slows conditioning processes happening with flavor?

 

[tgmartin000]

I don't know about that, and it could be more tradition than anything, but lately I've been warming my fermenter to 70+ after about a week, and it does seem to help clean things up. I also like to shake the fermenter to get the yeast back in suspension.

 

[Sudstud]

Ive found that raising the temp as fermentation helps get those last few points and makes for a cleaner tasting beer. Seems like tightly controlling ferm temps for the first couple days then allowing the carboy to warm up a few degrees really does help speed the cleanup process. Even my bigger beers seem to come into their own quicker. Even Jamil says that if you ferment correctly, there should be no need to let your beer sit for weeks in order to taste right.

 

[Nateo]

Even Jamil says that if you ferment correctly, there should be no need to let your beer sit for weeks in order to taste right.

True, but I've not met many homebrewers who can ferment correctly, so I would take that advice with a sack of salt. Unless you're already making outstanding beer (and who admits to making bad beer?) that advice isn't really helpful.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Even Jamil says that if you ferment correctly, there should be no need to let your beer sit for weeks in order to taste right.

That's been my experience too, but I think that applies more to the whole 'leave it for __ weeks so the yeast can clean up' thing. If you ferment at proper temps, which usually includes warming at the end of active fermentation, there should be no need other than clearing or aging to leave a beer on the yeast past reaching a stable FG.

True, but I've not met many homebrewers who can ferment correctly,

^this statement makes me sad. I've met plenty of brewers who make great beer at home, and who are very knowledgeable as to how to ferment correctly, thus the great beer.

 

[Sudstud]

True, but I've not met many homebrewers who can ferment correctly, so I would take that advice with a sack of salt. Unless you're already making outstanding beer (and who admits to making bad beer?) that advice isn't really helpful.

I totally get what you're saying. Personally, I brew all grain in a $30 aluminum kettle with no bells and whistles. When it came time to upgrade my process, I bought a freezer with temp controller and a yeast starter/stir plate setup, all for less than the cost of a Blichmann kettle. Instead of preaching about letting beer sit for ages, I'd rather preach about yeast health. Cheers

 

[Nateo]

Look at my sig if you have questions re: my opinion on letting beer sit around for a long time. I completely agree that yeast health/handling is the #1 factor in making great beer.

People have a hard time being objective then they're drinking other people's beer. People have a harder time being objective about their own abilities and skills. By definition, most beer has to be of "average" quality.

I used to think I made great beer. I was probably making below-average beer. Being unreasonably hypercritical of myself has spurred me learn, grow, and has let me make the "average" beer I make today.

I've met plenty of homebrewers who are happy drinking their mediocre beer, and having their friends tell them it's great. I've only met a handful of brewers who can really look at themselves critically and strive for excellence.

 

[Sudstud]

Ahh, guess I missed the signature! I may need to steal that...

I just get tired of reading this forum and people basically saying its ok to have bad (IMO) fermentation processes because you need to wait months for the beer to get good. "brew it right from the start!"

I'm lucky enough to have some brutally honest brewing friends...but to tell you the truth, I'm more critical of my beer than anybody. In my mind, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to make world class beer and I won't be happy until I can!

 

[Calichusetts]

When I use Notty...I start at 59 and then let it warm up to around 65 by the end of the week...flocs great, comes out clean with a nice aftertaste.

 

[tre9er]

This is something I'm currently striving to figure out. My old procedure was:

Pitch in the high 60's to 70 degrees to promote the start of fermentation (with yeast at similar temperature when picthed). Then put away at desired temp, 62 or so for ales, and leave it there for 2-3 weeks.

Now I've been taking it out of swamp cooler/cool environment after 3-5 days and letting it warm to around 70 to promote the yeast staying in suspension and finishing the job.

Should I not be pitching in the higher ranges, either? What's the best practice here from your experiences? I want clean beer that also finished relatively quickly. Kegs don't last long in this house

 

[Sudstud]

This is something I'm currently striving to figure out. My old procedure was:

Pitch in the high 60's to 70 degrees to promote the start of fermentation (with yeast at similar temperature when picthed). Then put away at desired temp, 62 or so for ales, and leave it there for 2-3 weeks.

Now I've been taking it out of swamp cooler/cool environment after 3-5 days and letting it warm to around 70 to promote the yeast staying in suspension and finishing the job.

Should I not be pitching in the higher ranges, either? What's the best practice here from your experiences? I want clean beer that also finished relatively quickly. Kegs don't last long in this house

My preference is to cool the wort to 75ish with my chiller, transfer to carboy, put in ferm chamber, and cool all the way down to pitching temp. I don't like to get the yeast started and then cool them down, but I never had any issues when I used to use your procedure...I just want to give them the best possible chance to make good beer for me!

 

[FlyDoctor]

My preference is to cool the wort to 75ish with my chiller, transfer to carboy, put in ferm chamber, and cool all the way down to pitching temp. I don't like to get the yeast started and then cool them down, but I never had any issues when I used to use your procedure...I just want to give them the best possible chance to make good beer for me!

This is the advice I have heard on Brew Strong as well - cool further, let the wort warm up a bit after pitching. If I understand it, the cooling after pitching lulls the yeast into being lazy - more so than would be expected purely based on the temperature. In other words, cool the wort to 55-60, let it warm to low-mid 60's after pitching for an ale rather than pitching at 70 and letting it cool further. I can't say whether this is true - but it makes biological sense.

 

[jtejedor]

Warming up at the end of fermentation does bring up an interesting point about "cleaning" up. I guess it depends on the style and if you want the beer to end up really clean. I just did a belgian IPA fermented at around 66 degrees, I took a sample and wow there was a lot of esters and bubblegum in there. I raised the temp to 70 at the end to make sure it finished out and lo and behold those bubblegum esters were gone and the beer was much cleaner tasting. Granted I did want it to finish just a bit cleaner since it was a belgian IPA. The brew I did before this was an english brown and following the advice in one of the english beer threads I fermented the beer at 68, might have even started that high can't remember. But then instead of raising the temperature dropped it down to 64 after a day or two and I did get more of an english character then I have before in my other beers. I say if you like the character you get in an early sample then maybe don't raise the temp at the end. But then again it does sometimes help eek at those last few points of fermentation.

 

[tre9er]

That makes sense. In my Kolsch IIPA (accidental WL029 pitched into IIPA) I want clean, so I'm keeping it low. I did pitch near 68 though and let it go around that temp for 24 hours.

Does the pitch temp need to be on the low end or high end to promote good yeast activity and also clean flavors?

 

[weirdboy]

In particular, you are more likely to get diacetyl character if you don't let the yeast "clean up" after fermentation.

 

[Nateo]

As to the OP's original question, I don't believe that recommendation (the warming up one) is based on research, although I might be wrong. AFAIK it's anecdotal conjecture, though there are a lot of people who agree with it. My biggest problem with that book was the lack of clear references. While reading it I couldn't tell what was well-supported and what wasn't.

 

[foltster]

For some strains it can make a big difference in reducing diacetyl (1968, etc) or in some cases other off-flavor compounds. Also assists in ensuring fermentation is truly complete.

 

[tre9er]

Still need to know if pitching temp needs to be above desired fermentation temp for any reason, ie. to "promote fermentation starting" as I've seen on WL vials. Here is what they say on their FAQ:

For fermentation, make sure you pitch the yeast between 70-75F, then drop to a different temperature if you like after fermentation begins. Keep the temperature consistent during fermentation, even fluctuations during the evening can stall the yeast.

From WL on diacetyl:

What is diacetyl?

Diacetyl is a natural byproduct of yeast. It is most commonly recognized as a butterscotch or buttered popcorn flavor in the beer. To minimize the diacetyl attributes in beer, it’s recommended that the fermenting wort rest once the beer has reached terminal gravity for 48 hours at 62-70 degrees prior to crashing the temperature. This stage allows to yeast to reabsorb the diacetyl.

Doesn't sound like raising the temp to me, more like letting it rest in the "normal" range of most ale yeasts.

 

[foltster]

I ferment around 62 and diacetyl rest around 70... There is a lots of brewing literature that talks about raising the temperature the end of fermentation to reduce D....


I also pitch the around 62...you don't want to stress the yeast when it is in the growth phase!

 

[tre9er]

It seems like so many homebrewers go contrary to White Labs instructions (ie. Kolsch ferms at 60, pitching in low 60's). I guess I side with experience in the "field", meaning us brewers, but I wonder why WL recommends this stuff to begin with?

 

[jtejedor]

Probably to ensure that a vigorous fermentation starts and keeps customers happy. They also pretty much state that the vials can be directly pitched without a starter which doesn't seem to be best practice with most worts. So yeah starting high will probably reduce lag time a bit and make the yeast start with a fury but might also produce some off flavors in the process. I usually try at the very least to pitch at the temperature the batch is going to be fermented at but most of the time wait for it to cool down a few degrees below fermentation temperature.

 

[Nateo]

Using a single smack-pack or vial without a starter is a horrible idea, and I hate the yeast companies for saying that's OK. If you have 90%+ viability, that might be OK in some worts, but if your yeast has been abused by FedEx or your LHBS, your viability is certainly under 90%, maybe well below that if it's been sitting in a fridge for a few weeks.

There are hardly any times in the "real world" when a single vial without a starter provides a reasonable amount of yeast.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Using a single smack-pack or vial without a starter is a horrible idea, and I hate the yeast companies for saying that's OK.
There are hardly any times in the "real world" when a single vial without a starter provides a reasonable amount of yeast.

QFT!

 

[truebe]

I bet the high recommended pitching temp is for the people who dont use starters. they probably just assume the people making starters have it figured out and can use their own temperature schedule.

 

[tre9er]

I bet the high recommended pitching temp is for the people who dont use starters. they probably just assume the people making starters have it figured out and can use their own temperature schedule.

This could very well be true. It seems that enough people are pitching in the low 60's or even lower, that I will probably start doing this for all non-wits.

 

[FlyDoctor]

On the White labs web site there is a FAQ about WLP029 regarding the temp issue.

"Why do you recommend to ferment WLP029 above 62°F? I have seen in literature that some stains ferment at temps in the 55-60° degree range. Does this strain lends it self to lagering?

Some strains do ferment well in the 55-60°F, but this Kolsch strain works best at the 66-68°F temperature range. It has a very clean flavor profile at that temperature range. Some strains do not, so the lower temperatures produce better Kolsch. You can ferment WLP029 in the 55-60°F range, but we recommend against it because it is a difficult fermentation to keep going. Kosch can be cold lagered, and the flavor profile will be improved."

 

[tre9er]

On the White labs web site there is a FAQ about WLP029 regarding the temp issue.

"Why do you recommend to ferment WLP029 above 62°F? I have seen in literature that some stains ferment at temps in the 55-60° degree range. Does this strain lends it self to lagering?

Some strains do ferment well in the 55-60°F, but this Kolsch strain works best at the 66-68°F temperature range. It has a very clean flavor profile at that temperature range. Some strains do not, so the lower temperatures produce better Kolsch. You can ferment WLP029 in the 55-60°F range, but we recommend against it because it is a difficult fermentation to keep going. Kosch can be cold lagered, and the flavor profile will be improved."

Yeah, I read that...which is why I said that it seems some go against this because I've had a few people tell me to ferment it at 60*. It's at about 66 right now, which is where I'll probably keep it since it's a IIPA with lots of work left to be done.