I'll be moving into a house this fall and I want to plan for a few apple trees. I'm in zone 9 with a lot of 100F+ in the summer, and low chill winter. I want to make cider, as well as eating fresh, baking and canning. I'm thinking a Pink Lady as a favorite eating apple. A Dolgo crab or a Winesap. What would be a good third choice in a late season apple to round out a cider blend?
Cider apple trees for new house
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gregbathurst
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Grannysmith is fairly low chill and performs well in warm climates - it comes from Australia like pink lady. It gets much better flavour in warm climates than it does in cool climates. Russet apples are good for hot places because the russet skin protects from sunburn but might need more chill. I think most bittersweet cider apples need more chill.
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Arkansas Black?
Have you looked at these folks? https://www.albemarleciderworks.com/orchard/apple-varieties/cider
They are in Virginia, which is not zone 9, but much warmer than the usual cast of characters in Washington State or Maine.
Have you looked at these folks? https://www.albemarleciderworks.com/orchard/apple-varieties/cider
They are in Virginia, which is not zone 9, but much warmer than the usual cast of characters in Washington State or Maine.
I'm been looking through russets for zone 9 and the Arkansas Black. Most of these need a cross-polinator, so I'm trying to find a good season match to Pink Lady. It looks like King David (related to the Arkansas) might be a good match. Trees of Antiquity carries all three if my local nursery can't get them.
gregbathurst
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Do you know how many chill hours you get on average? Do you get regular or any frosts?
I love my centennial crab and rescue crab trees. They make great cider (without any other blends) and wines. I love the dolgo as well.
The centennial is super early for me, and I pressed cider weeks ago from that tree. The rescue is ripe now. I'm in zone 3/4 though, and bought my trees from a nursery specializing in cold growing conditions, so those particular varieties may not work for you.
The centennial is super early for me, and I pressed cider weeks ago from that tree. The rescue is ripe now. I'm in zone 3/4 though, and bought my trees from a nursery specializing in cold growing conditions, so those particular varieties may not work for you.
Fresno, California. <45F is recorded at 650-1200 hours, normal about 900hrs. Breaching freeze temps is maybe 50 hours on avg. Our occassional frost warnings measure in hours for the citrus farmers near harvest. Long Summers hit 100+ with regularity. Yooper, I'll look into those crabapples as well.
gregbathurst
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You should be able to grow most cider apples at those hours. You should plant at least one traditional tannic apple,something like somerset redstreak or kingston black, they add good flavour to cider. You might find some years some trees won't fruit if the winters are too warm, pink lady should fruit reliably. Crabs are good but I think proper cider cultivars are better.
Pink Lady, Kingston Black, and Braeburn as a late-season pollinator? That would give me fresh, cider, and baking apples in a few years. If I find more space, I can add a crab next year. I didn't see Centennial or Rescue at the nursery I'm planning to use. It looks like M111 rootstock is the goto here.
Kingston Black is a dud of a tree, you will never get a lot of fruit off it. If you want an old English apple, you could try Dabinett or Harry Masters Jersey if you can find them.
Other great apples for cider include the Keepsake family, which also includes Zestar, Honeycrisp, Sweet 16, etc. These all make huge quantities of sweet juice, with Zestar being more tart and also an early apple. Not sure how these perform in southern climes though.
You definitely want some crabapples for more intense flavors and tannins as well. Consider developing at least a few graft branches of crabs, that's what I do. These will also improve pollenization.
Also I second the motion for Arkansas Black. I really love that apple for every reason.
Cheers.
Other great apples for cider include the Keepsake family, which also includes Zestar, Honeycrisp, Sweet 16, etc. These all make huge quantities of sweet juice, with Zestar being more tart and also an early apple. Not sure how these perform in southern climes though.
You definitely want some crabapples for more intense flavors and tannins as well. Consider developing at least a few graft branches of crabs, that's what I do. These will also improve pollenization.
Also I second the motion for Arkansas Black. I really love that apple for every reason.
Cheers.
madscientist451
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A traditional cider apple that does well in New England, France or the UK and produces good cider apples may grow in your area and may produce apples, but the resulting juice isn't going to be the same. Will it be better or worse? You can plant the trees and wait and find out.
But you may want to plant a few proven apple trees that are known to produce in zone 9 and maybe experiment with a one or two others.
It depends on how much room you have and your free time. Be aware that you are going to have to install some drip irrigation or some other way of watering your trees.
Stark Nurseries has a list of varieties that will grow in zone 9.
One that looks interesting is Cinnamon Spice, I'd plant Golden Delicious as a pollinator. I've used Golden delicious in cider blends but its a good eating apple as well. Another variety listed is the Whitney Crabapple as well as the already mentioned Granny Smith and Fuji.
Asian pears should also do well in your area and can be used for a cider on their own or blended with apples.
Davewilson.com recommends Akane, Ashmead's Kernel and Hudson Gem for Zone 9
And here's a website that has long list of mostly rare apples for zone 9:
http://www.centuryfarmorchards.com/niche/warmerapples.html
Peaches and Nectarines should do well in your area, probably better than apples, so if you have the space, I'd include some in your plans.
Good Luck!
But you may want to plant a few proven apple trees that are known to produce in zone 9 and maybe experiment with a one or two others.
It depends on how much room you have and your free time. Be aware that you are going to have to install some drip irrigation or some other way of watering your trees.
Stark Nurseries has a list of varieties that will grow in zone 9.
One that looks interesting is Cinnamon Spice, I'd plant Golden Delicious as a pollinator. I've used Golden delicious in cider blends but its a good eating apple as well. Another variety listed is the Whitney Crabapple as well as the already mentioned Granny Smith and Fuji.
Asian pears should also do well in your area and can be used for a cider on their own or blended with apples.
Davewilson.com recommends Akane, Ashmead's Kernel and Hudson Gem for Zone 9
And here's a website that has long list of mostly rare apples for zone 9:
http://www.centuryfarmorchards.com/niche/warmerapples.html
Peaches and Nectarines should do well in your area, probably better than apples, so if you have the space, I'd include some in your plans.
Good Luck!
gregbathurst
Well-Known Member
Kingston black is only a dud in wet climates, it does very well in dry climates like california. I live in a warm dry climate and the trees that do well for me are KB, somerset redstreak and tremletts bitter. I really think if you are only planting one cider tree it should be a proper tannic cider tree. Jolicoeur's book has some recommendations for the US. Ciderworkshop.com has information about cider apples.
Thought I would give a 1 year update in case someone else ends up looking for similar info. I ordered 5 trees from treesofantiquity.com on M111 rootstock. Kingston Black, Newtown Pippin, Pink Lady, Wickson, and Niedzwetzkyana. Each was cut to under 4'. I put in a drip that broke mid summer and stopped watering for about 6 days. This summer was especially brutal, with prolonged 100s, without much evening cooling.
The Kingston Black broke bud in mid Spring, a month after the rest. The Kingston and Pink Lady leaf curled pretty bad once it got 100F every day, but kept growing and putting out new leaves. The Newtown Pippin was less curled, but when the watering broke it was the hardest hit. Some leaf drop, but eventually started branch and leaf growth again. All of these 3 are about 6.5'. The Wickson had some light leaf curl, no noticable decline during drought, and has the most vigorous growth, reaching about 8' so far with several long, strong branches. It has had a few blossoms and I found two tiny apples in Spring that were cut off.
The Niedz has been awkward. It broke bud in February with a few flowers and tufts of reddish leaves. Lots of new leaves all summer, but no branch growth until mid summer. No leaf curl or drop at any point. It puts out a flower or two at a time every few weeks through Sept. I've pinched off a couple apples. It's all of 4.5' tall now.
The Kingston Black broke bud in mid Spring, a month after the rest. The Kingston and Pink Lady leaf curled pretty bad once it got 100F every day, but kept growing and putting out new leaves. The Newtown Pippin was less curled, but when the watering broke it was the hardest hit. Some leaf drop, but eventually started branch and leaf growth again. All of these 3 are about 6.5'. The Wickson had some light leaf curl, no noticable decline during drought, and has the most vigorous growth, reaching about 8' so far with several long, strong branches. It has had a few blossoms and I found two tiny apples in Spring that were cut off.
The Niedz has been awkward. It broke bud in February with a few flowers and tufts of reddish leaves. Lots of new leaves all summer, but no branch growth until mid summer. No leaf curl or drop at any point. It puts out a flower or two at a time every few weeks through Sept. I've pinched off a couple apples. It's all of 4.5' tall now.
MtnGoatJoe
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https://www.orangepippintrees.com/ has a LOT of great info on cider apple trees.
If I could only plant a few trees, I'd probably stick to cider/culinary apples because sweet dessert apples are easy to come by. If you look around, you'll probably find a couple dozen trees within a mile of your home, and most people would love to have you come pick their fruit.
I started a similar thread a couple of years ago, and you might find some useful info there: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=539196
One thing I can tell you is that it can take several years to get fruit from young trees. If you're able to buy some 3 or 4 year old trees, they will be more expensive, but you'll get fruit a LOT sooner.
Let us know what you end up with.
If I could only plant a few trees, I'd probably stick to cider/culinary apples because sweet dessert apples are easy to come by. If you look around, you'll probably find a couple dozen trees within a mile of your home, and most people would love to have you come pick their fruit.
I started a similar thread a couple of years ago, and you might find some useful info there: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=539196
One thing I can tell you is that it can take several years to get fruit from young trees. If you're able to buy some 3 or 4 year old trees, they will be more expensive, but you'll get fruit a LOT sooner.
Let us know what you end up with.
The older trees weren't really an option at the time. Around here everyone has citrus, not a lot of appletrees along the sidewalks.
MtnGoatJoe
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Ahh, I see, you were posting a followup. My bad.
The varieties you picked sound really interesting. I also ordered Kingston Black and Wickson Crab. I may also try to get a Pink Lady some day as well.
The varieties you picked sound really interesting. I also ordered Kingston Black and Wickson Crab. I may also try to get a Pink Lady some day as well.
gratus fermentatio
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a bit of a rough start, but you pulled 'em through OK. You might want to give them a shot of indole-3-butyric acid to stimulate more root growth; it really does help. Good choice on the Wickson crab, it makes an awesome single varietal cider! Wandering Aengus makes one that is my absolute fav:
http://www.wanderingaengus.com/?p=116
Good luck with your trees!
Regards, GF.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the update:
Looks like the Wickson crab is the early favorite in your trial run; are you going to plant more trees? I'd say putting in a few more Wickson so you have enough for a decent batch of cider would be a good move.
You should note that high tannin apple trees such as Kingston Black won't produce the high tannins in warm growing areas. Research has shown that American grown English and French cider varieties contain half or less the amount of tannin as they do across the Atlantic.
I recently came across this web page that discusses growing apples in California:
http://www.kuffelcreek.com/applelist.htm
Looks like the Wickson crab is the early favorite in your trial run; are you going to plant more trees? I'd say putting in a few more Wickson so you have enough for a decent batch of cider would be a good move.
You should note that high tannin apple trees such as Kingston Black won't produce the high tannins in warm growing areas. Research has shown that American grown English and French cider varieties contain half or less the amount of tannin as they do across the Atlantic.
I recently came across this web page that discusses growing apples in California:
http://www.kuffelcreek.com/applelist.htm
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