Cider and Bread Yeast

[Streyker]

Hello there, I am also a noob with some questions. I've been reading the forums here a bit. I don't want to hijack your thread OP, but since we are both trying to get info for that nerve wracking "first batch", I figured we could join forces!

I liked this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/

I had to spend a bit of timing looking much up because I was unfamiliar with some things mentioned there.

On the idea of "beginners luck" I was only planning to do 2 seperate 1 gallon glass carboys as a test, try or die sort of thing. I have terrible luck, and don't want to go all out only to realize I screwed up a huge 5 gallon carboy.

So, I was looking at some very simple recipes, mostly with plain 100% apple juice (the cheap store brand). I also considered doing one batch with honey, and one without. And since I don't really have access to a LHBS, I was going to use common bread yeast, from the grocery store, as I have heard it works just fine.

I do not however, have air locks, but read that a tube into a bottle of water is acceptable. I also read somewhere about stretching some cloth or paper towels over the mouth and securing with elastic bands works? I would like to hear more about it, if anyone has actual experience. I am doing this on the cheap, for just this test, so if the paper towel method is valid, I would like to give it a shot.

As for the recipes, each for 1 gallon, how much sugar would you recommend for a purely sugar recipe, and how much honey/sugar for a mixed recipe? I was going for around 8-9 ABV for both.

Thank you for any responses!

 

[mhuntwork]

As far as not having an airlock or ale yeast - they are cheap and can be gotten on the internet for a few dollars delivered. I thing McGuyvering your foreign bodies protection with paper towel is a risk that runs counter to your better safe than sorry approach to batch size. Also, it doesn't provide you any protection from oxidation.

 

[Streyker]

As far as not having an airlock or ale yeast - they are cheap and can be gotten on the internet for a few dollars delivered. I thing McGuyvering your foreign bodies protection with paper towel is a risk that runs counter to your better safe than sorry approach to batch size. Also, it doesn't provide you any protection from oxidation.

As far as using bread yeast, from what I've read, it seems that the only differences is a "hint" of bread flavor, which isn't undesirable to me at all. I happen to enjoy the aroma of bread, and have seen that some recipes specifically call for bread yeast because of it's flavor.

As far as the paper towels, I have read that the gasses produced from the fermentation are heavier than air, and will more or less provide a buffer between the ambient air and the cider in the carboy, provided the container is not disturbed. I am no scientist, but I imagine the "paper towel" theory is that the continuous off-gassing inside the carboy is going to be of a higher pressure than that of ambient air outside the container, and that the paper towel (double thickness, as folded) is air permeable, but still resistant, allowing the high pressure gas inside the container to press it's way through the fabric, but providing resistance for low pressure ambient air to enter.

Again, I am not against the air locks most people use, I just don't own any, and I am attempting this on a low budget. If I had rubber bungs to fit my carboy, and air locks to stick in them, I would be using them. If nothing else, consider this a wild test, and the results will be interesting, at least.

I've decided to go with two batches, one gallon 100% apple juice, pastuerized (from concentrate, will this matter?), with 3 cups of sugar, and 1 tablespoon of Fleismann's (sp?) yeast, while the other batch was the same juice and yeast, but with 1 cup of sugar, and 1 cup of honey.

I have already prepared both gallons, and would be interested to hear any input on these first batch attempts. Does it sound like a disaster? I am fairly nervous about the results.

 

[mhuntwork]

Along with the hint of bread you will lack the properties that are characteristic of ale (or wine if you go that route) yeasts. Not a big deal. As far as off gassing you are absolutely right that a differential pressure will be established during fermentation. However, ciders commonly need a lot of additional time to clarify and mellow. Once the fermentation is complete you won't have that DP anymore. Maybe a loose tenting of Saran wrap? I dunno. Maybe someone else will chime in and say it doesn't matter.

Have you looked up home fabricated airlocks? I'll bet it can be done with common household items. Then your rig looks all the more impressive when you show it off like your new baby to all your friends.

 

[Streyker]

Along with the hint of bread you will lack the properties that are characteristic of ale (or wine if you go that route) yeasts. Not a big deal. As far as off gassing you are absolutely right that a differential pressure will be established during fermentation. However, ciders commonly need a lot of additional time to clarify and mellow. Once the fermentation is complete you won't have that DP anymore. Maybe a loose tenting of Saran wrap? I dunno. Maybe someone else will chime in and say it doesn't matter.

Have you looked up home fabricated airlocks? I'll bet it can be done with common household items. Then your rig looks all the more impressive when you show it off like your new baby to all your friends.

As far as household items, I am sure I could manage something. I do have some 1/2" diameter clear hose, and a roll of cellophane. So I could make a primitive hose air lock, into a glass of water, or simply cover the jugs loosely in cellophane, and pierce a single tiny hole. Something like that, you are imagining?

 

[Streyker]

Also, I prepared the gallon jugs around 3-4 hours ago, and both have a nice head on them from the yeast. The one with the honey is clearly a thicker head. I am hoping it will produce a nice honey apply flavor with a stronger ABV.

I don't have a hydrometer, so I am just crossing my fingers.

 

[Yooper]

As far as using bread yeast, from what I've read, it seems that the only differences is a "hint" of bread flavor, which isn't undesirable to me at all. I happen to enjoy the aroma of bread, and have seen that some recipes specifically call for bread yeast because of it's flavor.

It's not just a "hint" of bread flavor, but instead a bready cider, that won't clear (bread yeast won't fall out of solution very easily) and won't ferment fully since it has a very low alcohol tolerance. It's sort of nasty, if you're going above 5% or so. You'd get a bready, sweet, cloudy, lower alcohol apple drink in the end. It'll be pretty bad if you go above 5%. Sickening sweet if you go above 7% or so, with a nasty yeast flavor.

 

[Streyker]

As I said, I am a noob, and this is my first batch. I read this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-rapid-rise-bread-yeast-135616/index2.html

Which gave me some hope about bread yeast being viable, and that it seems some people are blowing the flavor out of proportion. I grew up in a very german family. With lots of bread in my diet, and thick, heavy drink.

Bready, sweet, and cloudy don't really bother me, the lower alcohol is more of a non-issue, I imagine. If I wanted high yield alcohol, I would be probably making vodka, or whisky, and not apple cider.

I guess my real question here is, "Will this recipe produce hard cider effectively, despite preferential taste?".

I am more concerned with "will it work" than "will it taste good". Taste is relative, and I believe I can always "adjust fire" with a future recipe. This is my first attempt, and I am not expecting either recipe to be perfect.

 

[overpunch]

As I said, I am a noob, and this is my first batch. I read this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-rapid-rise-bread-yeast-135616/index2.html

Which gave me some hope about bread yeast being viable, and that it seems some people are blowing the flavor out of proportion. I grew up in a very german family. With lots of bread in my diet, and thick, heavy drink.

Bready, sweet, and cloudy don't really bother me, the lower alcohol is more of a non-issue, I imagine. If I wanted high yield alcohol, I would be probably making vodka, or whisky, and not apple cider.

I guess my real question here is, "Will this recipe produce hard cider effectively, despite preferential taste?".

I am more concerned with "will it work" than "will it taste good". Taste is relative, and I believe I can always "adjust fire" with a future recipe. This is my first attempt, and I am not expecting either recipe to be perfect.

The answer is NO.

Doing 5 gallons of a bad recipe is a big waste of resources. It will ferment to a low alcohol, but it won't help you "adjust fire". Most people have lots of success with Ed Wort's Apfelwein recipe anyway.

The type of yeast really does make a big difference. Bakers yeast is really gross as others have pointed out. I love bread and heavy drinks too, but it's just really wrong in a cider. With 4lbs of sugar, 3 cans of concentrate, and a yeast that can't ferment high...it is going to be disgustingly sweet (think diabeetus).

Also, using a yeast that won't ferment well and won't clear isn't very effective. Cider is really easy to make. Just use a good wine/ale yeast, apple juice, some sugar, and you're good to go. Yeast nutrient, energizer, and campden tablets for bonus points. Yeast is cheap! Don't skimp on it.

 

[snortwheeze]

As I said, I am a noob, and this is my first batch. I read this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/cider-rapid-rise-bread-yeast-135616/index2.html

Which gave me some hope about bread yeast being viable, and that it seems some people are blowing the flavor out of proportion. I grew up in a very german family. With lots of bread in my diet, and thick, heavy drink.

Bready, sweet, and cloudy don't really bother me, the lower alcohol is more of a non-issue, I imagine. If I wanted high yield alcohol, I would be probably making vodka, or whisky, and not apple cider.

I guess my real question here is, "Will this recipe produce hard cider effectively, despite preferential taste?".

I am more concerned with "will it work" than "will it taste good". Taste is relative, and I believe I can always "adjust fire" with a future recipe. This is my first attempt, and I am not expecting either recipe to be perfect.

It will work, it will get you tipsy. With the low abv and the bready taste, you may not want more then two. If you don't care about taste, then you should be happy with the results. I came very close to doing the exact same thing, just wanted to start brewing! In the end I decided that brewing is the ultimate test of patience, and I should wait for the right equipment. Yooper even talked me out of using screw on bottles when I wanted to bottle this last weekend. It sounds to me like you just wanted to make some hooch, and that's fine. I've been there! But if you want something you can be proud of, something people won't make a face at when they try, next time, spend $7.50 for some Nottingham, a drilled stopper and an airlock. I promise, you will never go back to the Victorian era...

 

[jayott]

Don't use bread yeast. If cheap is your goal, at the very least, culture yeast either from apple skins, or raisins,

Raisins and water alone can make a halfway decent wine when allowed to ferment from the yeast already present.

Instead of bread yeast, many bakers use yeast from raisins and water to rise bread dough.

 

[mhuntwork]

Diabeetus! LOL. Brimley rules.

The apple wine recipe is pretty good but takes a good solid carbonation and a few weeks in the cold to knock the "Boones Farm"-iness off it I found.

Ale yeast is $4 and a proper airlock is $1. Seriously. Just do it.

 

[Yooper]

Wine yeast is $.49 cents a pack, so I doubt cost is the issue. Being argumentative with people with experience is a sign of stubbornness, so the person using the bread yeast may decide it's awesome just to be contrary. (I've done it, and it works only in JOAM, but each person has to learn some things for themselves).

Anyway, the OP had a question, and we've gotten sidetracked by other posts. If anybody has a question, please post a new thread and not threadjack this one. Thanks.

 

[Streyker]

Wine yeast is $.49 cents a pack, so I doubt cost is the issue. Being argumentative with people with experience is a sign of stubbornness, so the person using the bread yeast may decide it's awesome just to be contrary. (I've done it, and it works only in JOAM, but each person has to learn some things for themselves).

Anyway, the OP had a question, and we've gotten sidetracked by other posts. If anybody has a question, please post a new thread and not threadjack this one. Thanks.

I don't consider it threadjacking, as opposed to two different people making two identical threads.

I have already admitted that I am do not have the "proper" equipment. I don't know of any local home brew shop, and I have no ability to buy online.

I guess I will just go throw my 2 gallons in the garbage because they aren't perfect and I am wasting my time making a first brew that isn't the best brew ever.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well if you can't use ebay to get a packet of yeast, you could culture yeast from a bottle of naturally fermented beer. To have any hope of success with this though, you would need some sanitizer... Because nasties could grow readily in your must as you are waiting for the yeast to take off.

 

[DerCribben]

I just googled homebrew shops spring tx, looks like there is a big one right in your town called "brew it yourself".

 

[RoughandReadyRanch]

I just googled homebrew shops spring tx, looks like there is a big one right in your town called "brew it yourself".

I think they can spot an minor who can't order online due to lack of credit card maybe I am sure the folks would love to place that order for Jr. and his friends. I tried apple juice with sugar and bread wine with a rubber balloon on top and after 1 month it was cloudy as hell and tasted like crappy half fermented garbage with sugar. Made me kinda ill as well.

 

[Streyker]

I think they can spot an minor who can't order online due to lack of credit card maybe I am sure the folks would love to place that order for Jr. and his friends. I tried apple juice with sugar and bread wine with a rubber balloon on top and after 1 month it was cloudy as hell and tasted like crappy half fermented garbage with sugar. Made me kinda ill as well.

Actually, not a minor, a disabled Iraq combat veteran with debt coming out of his ears. The only thing you were right about is lack of a credit card. Banks won't touch me. I deal with everything in cash. Don't be an idiot.

 

[RoughandReadyRanch]

Actually, not a minor, a disabled Iraq combat veteran with debt coming out of his ears. The only thing you were right about is lack of a credit card. Banks won't touch me. I deal with everything in cash. Don't be an idiot.

Hey if you are an adult, your comments as well as your retort make you sound like a child even more. Calling me an idiot just adds to my smile. You just joined and you are speaking about making something that kids would try to make. If you're telling the truth I could really care less. You're financial hardships and disability are your problem and you can enjoy your lovely cocktail and lament on that if you wish. If someone else can find a brew shop in your given location in a matter of seconds with google search then who is really the idiot here? Nice shop page too. Take your cash and buy some night train or thunderbird and mix it with a little apple cider or just go buy a Crispin. You obviously don't like the advice that was given to you buy people with a lot of experience so the choice is yours. Don't get you panties in a bunch over somebody stating the obvious conclusion. Good luck.

 

[DerCribben]

Actually, not a minor, a disabled Iraq combat veteran with debt coming out of his ears. The only thing you were right about is lack of a credit card. Banks won't touch me. I deal with everything in cash. Don't be an idiot.

Well bud there ya go then, I'm certain "Brew Yourself" would be more than happy to take your cash. You gotta understand that the people here will answer your questions with true, correct answers and you need to take rxpert advice for what it is. Yeast is not yeast, there's different strains that do completely different things and you gotta go with what works. It's like trying to put fuel oil in your engine because it's "oil", or vice versa, trying to use motor oil in your furnace. If you're dying to use bread yeast and can't be dissuaded, then don't waste good apple juice/cider, you may as well just mix it with sugar water because you're going to end up with the same thing in the end.

 

[WesleyS]

I have already admitted that I am do not have the "proper" equipment. I don't know of any local home brew shop, and I have no ability to buy online.

Brew it Yourself
25770 I-45 North
Spring, TX 77386

I go there all the time. Nice place and the owner is very helpful.

 

[Yooper]

I don't consider it threadjacking, as opposed to two different people making two identical threads.

I have already admitted that I am do not have the "proper" equipment. I don't know of any local home brew shop, and I have no ability to buy online.

I guess I will just go throw my 2 gallons in the garbage because they aren't perfect and I am wasting my time making a first brew that isn't the best brew ever.

Well, two "identical questions?" No, I think not.

The OP's question is whether they have enough of the spices in the recipe. Yours involved bread yeast, and then arguing about it when others tell you it doesn't taste very good. That totally took the thread off topic, so these posts will be moved to a new thread.

 

[mhuntwork]

Oh, it's on topic now!

:Ahem:

Bread yeast???? Yuck! Don't do it! LOL

 

[snortwheeze]

Quick search shows that there is a homebrew store in spring. Also there are a couple of dollar general stores. You can get a prepaid MasterCard there that works just like a real credit card for three bucks. You have to put at least 20 bucks on it. You obviously have internet access, lest wise you wouldent be able to post here. There are ways. I'm sure you can find very cheap transportation, being a disabled war vet. (just ask, people in Texas would love to help you out!) no one is trying to tell you to throw out your batches. By all means, I encourage you to give it a go! I can say, from experience, that if you do drink this yeasty concoction, in about 2 hours you find yourself in the bathroom using up all the TP. Advice is free, if you don't like it, lump it. But don't ask for advice, and then tell us were wrong. I have been brewing for about a month and am sure glad I did it right the first time. Oh and you can also order online from the three homebrew stores in SA if you want to keep shipping down. There got that off my chest. Officially un subscribing!

 

[overpunch]

I guess I will just go throw my 2 gallons in the garbage because they aren't perfect and I am wasting my time making a first brew that isn't the best brew ever.

No, don't throw it away! We all learn from mistakes. Save a bottle of it to compare to your next batch when you use a ale/wine yeast--you'll be amazed at the difference. A lot of us made the mistake of using a baker's yeast before, so we were just trying to help you out. I poured out the gallon i made after just a couple sips of it. The taste was good up front, but the aftertaste made me want to puke.

If you do decide to use an ale/wine yeast, you'll likely get a dry cider. But you can mix in some sprite or 7up to sweeten it and give it a bit of carbonation when you pour it into your glass

 

[daughterofthesun]

Wine yeast is $.49 cents a pack, so I doubt cost is the issue. Being argumentative with people with experience is a sign of stubbornness, so the person using the bread yeast may decide it's awesome just to be contrary. (I've done it, and it works only in JOAM, but each person has to learn some things for themselves).

Anyway, the OP had a question, and we've gotten sidetracked by other posts. If anybody has a question, please post a new thread and not threadjack this one. Thanks.

Thanks Yooper! Always good to hear from someone in the homeland!

As for the matter of bread yeast, my goal is to put together a tasty cider to be proud of. Someone else's goal may be to establish themselves as the McGuyver of beers. I'll keep that in mind should society collapse, but in the meantime, thanks to everyone for their feedback!