Chloramine boils off in 5- 20 minutes according to my water company

[ajdelange]

The Scottish Centre's comment about following GAC by ion exchange is interesting. At pH 9 72% of the ammonia appears as ammonium ion (NH4+), at pH 8 that's 96% and at pH 7 and below more than 99.6%. In the brewing context ammonium is a benefit as it is a yeast nutrient. Most of the yeast supplements one buys contain diammonium phosphate for this reason. If you are using the water for dialysis or fish that ammonium probably isn't so great though most aquaria are equipped with ammonium removing filters as fish poop contains a fair amount of it (urea). Ammonium ion is produced when Campden tablets are used too.

 

[mabrungard]

I am sorry that so many users on forums like this hide behind anonymous avatars and then disparage the advice of people that have enough confidence in their advice to actually sign their name with it. I strongly recommend that anyone using any forum take any advice with a grain of salt if the poster isn't willing to stake their name and reputation behind it. I fully trust the advice that AJ deLange provides (but I don't always agree with it! ;-) ).

An important point for this thread is that boiling to remove chloramines is not very suitable as a treatment option given the slow progress and energy usage. It pales in comparison with the relatively simplistic treatment via metabisulfite addition (Campden tablet).

 

[ArcLight]

iambeer got me thinking.

Based on reading AJs paper, maybe to save the 1.5 cents for half a Campden tablet, one could instead store 15 gallons of water in an open topped barrel for a month or two, stirring twice a day. After 60 days of moderate agitation, hopefully a fair amount of the chloramine will be gone.

If you store it outdoors, mosquitos will lay their eggs in it. So store it indoors and just carry the 10 gallons outside when ready to use it. If 60 days isn't enough, try 90-120 days.

At least you save the 1.5 cents for half a Campden tablet.

 

[Yooper]

I was very clear that I was only suggesting that there are many sources (more recent, authoritative sources) that claim chloramine can be removed in minutes. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.

It's not hilarious at all. You make disparaging remarks about noted brewing water chemistry experts, and say things that aren't true. You just look like a total ass, with a penchant for trolling. If people are laughing, they are laughing AT you, not with you.

Water chemistry is an important part of brewing, but like so many things in brewing, if the brewer is happy with the results of his attempts then the area of water chemistry is ignored. That doesn't make it unimportant as a topic, it's just unimportant to the brewer. There are plenty of brewers who brew "good enough" beer.

Discussing appropriate chloramine removal techniques for those who want to do it is important, so espousing senseless made-up "facts" will be challenged.

 

[rhamilton]

I was very clear that I was only suggesting that there are many sources (more recent, authoritative sources) that claim chloramine can be removed in minutes. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.

Go buy a chloramine test kit. Do your method. Test. Post results.

If you want to be taken seriously, take your science seriously.

Until then, the standard treatment for chloramine is Campden tabs.

 

[weirdboy]

For what it's worth, I use vitamin C to treat my water instead of campden tablets. I purchased a big bottle of powdered vitamin C (probably a lifetime supply) for a couple bucks online.

 

[RCCOLA]

For what it's worth, I use vitamin C to treat my water instead of campden tablets. I purchased a big bottle of powdered vitamin C (probably a lifetime supply) for a couple bucks online.

How much do you use? I have some of this from Puritan's pride but wasn't sure on the dosage.

 

[weirdboy]

How much do you use? I have some of this from Puritan's pride but wasn't sure on the dosage.

16mg per gallon of water for typical water treatment concentrations. The half-life for the reaction is about 4 minutes, so what I do is add the vitamin c as I start filling up the pot and heating it for dough-in. By the time I get to my strike temp it's usually been long enough for the reaction to have removed the bulk of the chlorine/chloramine.

 

[bob1852]

Thanks Martin and AJ (and others) for continuing to help us understand water issues relating to homebrewing. It's making my beer better, it's not as hard as it initially sounds (thanks to your explainations and calculators), it's cheap, it works, and it is science not voodoo.

Cheers.

 

[RCCOLA]

16mg per gallon of water for typical water treatment concentrations.

Is that correct? That's .08 gram per 5 gallons. That is a tiny amount.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

16mg per gallon of water for typical water treatment concentrations. The half-life for the reaction is about 4 minutes, so what I do is add the vitamin c as I start filling up the pot and heating it for dough-in. By the time I get to my strike temp it's usually been long enough for the reaction to have removed the bulk of the chlorine/chloramine.

Is that correct? That's .08 gram per 5 gallons. That is a tiny amount.

I've read that Ascorbic Acid will only temporarily neutralize chloramines and that the neutralizing bonds break down within a day. Maybe AJ can shed some light.

 

[weirdboy]

Is that correct? That's .08 gram per 5 gallons. That is a tiny amount.

Yes, it is a tiny amount.

I got the 16mg/gallon figure from the guy who came to speak about water chemistry for our BJCP prep class. Doing some further research on the subject, I found this quote in a thread on another forum:

"Ascorbic acid a USEPA approved dechlorinating agent is commonly used for chloramine removal in kidney dialysis treatment applications." "..an ascorbic acid concentration of 1.7 mg/l...will remove a chloramine residual of approximately 3 mg/l."


3mg/l is the maximum recommended concentration of chloramine in drinking water, and typical concentrations are between .2 and 2mg/l.


My local water is treated with chlorine, which is at around 1.2mg/l.

 

[ajdelange]

I've read that Ascorbic Acid will only temporarily neutralize chloramines and that the neutralizing bonds break down within a day. Maybe AJ can shed some light.

Afraid I can't. I do recall reading somewhere that ascorbic acid isn't a good choice for keeping beer in a reduced state because the oxidized ascorbic acid eventually turns around and oxidizes some reductone in the beer and I suppose that could happen when the oxidized ascorbic acid reaches the mash tun but if the amount quoted is correct it can't do much damage. Anyway, I am not nearly certain on this.

 

[ThatGeekGuy]

Something I received when I asked the EHS chemist from our local MUD about removing chloramines. She also said that metabisulfate aka Campden tablets is an effective way to remove chloramines quickly from our water. I thanked her and told her I'd bring her some (chloramine free) beer for her time....

http://www.wqa.org/pdf/techbulletins/TB-Chloramine.pdf

 

[ajdelange]

1/4 tablet per 5 gal takes care of up to 3 mg/L

 

[ArcLight]

1/4 tablet per 5 gal takes care of up to 3 mg/L

AJ, does that mean if the Chlorine/Chloramine concentration is say 1mg/L, then that 1/4 of a tablet would actually be sufficient for 15 gallons? (that it scales linearly? 2mg/L = 10 gallons, etc)


Also, I think you mentioned that the tablets you were talking about were 700mg/tablet. The ones from the LHBS are 550 mg/tablet, so thats 20% less.


I'd like to use as small a dose as possible, because it does add some salts. At the very least, I want to account for them, if its not a trivial amount.

 

[brewtus_]

iambeer,

Don't listen to Yooper or trust that old paper by AJ Delange.

Go ahead and boil for 20 minutes, you will be fine. All the Chloramine will be gone.
Thats what I do and my beer tastes good.




Keep in mind that no one here knows what they are talking about, they just like to talk. You wont learn anything by reading articles here. Has anyone here won anything, or been brewing for more than a year?

Trust your city government, their purpose is to take care of their citizens.

>>That is the dated document from the 90's.... In contrast, multiple .gov and city water websites are saying that it takes 5 minutes to remove half of chloramine (and 5 minutes for another 50% reduction, etc) or approximately 20 minutes to remove most of chloramines. I don't understand why you guys can't accept that.

I agree with you. The Chloramine will be long gone, before the end of your 60 minute boil.
Most cities run excellent breweries. The city of Stone in California makes great IPAs. The city of Sierra Nevada on California also makes good beer.

1. Make sure you never squeeze your grain bag if you steep your grain, else you will get Tannins in your beer.

2. Make sure you transfer your beer to a secondary after 5 days. Leaving your beer on that dead yeast cake will cause autolysis and ruin your beer.

3. Don't use Aluminum pots, else you will get Alzheimers.

4. Don't let your beer get stale, bottle it after a week in the secondary (in clear bottles, so sunlight can kill any foreign yeast).
Give it a week to carbonate and start drinking it.

5. This is all true, no sarcasm at all.

Don't forget:

6. Don't use a Rubbermaid cooler for mashing since you'll likely leach out nasty plastic additives into your beer.

 

[DrBergeron]

Thought I'd weigh in on this since I have to remove Chloramines for my Saltwater fishtanks. The best method to bring it down that I've used is to use a RO machine with a .5 micron Carbon prefilter with a siliabuster DI cartridge made by Spectrapure. It's a bigger expense at a few hundred bucks but it should be able to remove almost all chloramine out of normal city treated tap water. If you plan to invest in RO/DI you should get the higher end filters since they're worth the money. Lots of talk about chloramines on a lot of different aquarium websites that have quite a few knowledgeable people in the water treatment industry.

"Low end systems rely on multiple carbons as they use low quality, low capacity carbon since it costs less and improves their profit margin. Often granular products are completely exhausted in as little as 300 total gallons, thats 60 good RO/DI gallons and 240 waste gallons at the normal 4:1 waste ratio. Compare that to a single 0.5 micron 20,000 gallon carbon block at 4,000 good and 16,000 waste gallons. Big difference."

I use water from my RO/DI to make all my beer in addition to synthetic saltwater and I've never noticed any off flavors in my beer. It's also very easy to hit Mash PH due to the water being, in most respects, distilled.

 

[ajdelange]

AJ, does that mean if the Chlorine/Chloramine concentration is say 1mg/L, then that 1/4 of a tablet would actually be sufficient for 15 gallons? (that it scales linearly? 2mg/L = 10 gallons, etc)

Yes.

Also, I think you mentioned that the tablets you were talking about were 700mg/tablet. The ones from the LHBS are 550 mg/tablet, so thats 20% less.

They do vary in weight and so an adjustment would need to be made for that.

I'd like to use as small a dose as possible, because it does add some salts. At the very least, I want to account for them, if its not a trivial amount.

The amounts of salts added are very small and one of them, ammonium,is a yeast nutrient.

You can get the paper mentioned extensively earlier in this thread at hbd.org in the Preserve at the mirror of my website. There are tables in there that show how much of what is produced for each mg/L chlorine or chloramine destroyed.

I tell people to crush a tablet, dissolve it (to the extent you can) in some warm water and add that a bit at a time to the brew water. When you can't smell chlorine any more, when the smell of sulfur dioxide begins to become prevalent, you have titrated the chloramine i.e. you have used no more than you actually need.

 

[bovineblitz]

For the life of me, I can't understand people's avoidance of using campden. I see all kinds of bad info on this site about how to get rid of chlorine/chloramine when it can be eliminated with a 1/4 tab per 5 gals of water. I use it in every batch.

I just went and looked at the price tag on my campden tablets. It was $1.90 for 50 tabs.

I think $.08 per batch is pretty damned good insurance against band-aid beer.

Hell, I moved from a place with chloramine to a place with chlorine. I still take a knife and scrape a tablet once or twice just to get a tiny amount of sodium metabisulfate in there. Take THAT, chlorine!