Thats like saying that all cars that come out of the US are the exact same quality regardless of manufacturer or price point. I am sure that more than less of the stainless steel vessels that come out of China are inferior and not up to spec but you cant assume that is the case for every single manufacturer. This is why you have to do your homework. From what I understand these are the same vessels that are imported and sold by one if not more US wholesalers who supply to breweries. Can anyone confirm this?
China Made Fermenters
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Thats like saying that all cars that come out of the US are the exact same quality regardless of manufacturer or price point. I am sure that more than less of the stainless steel vessels that come out of China are inferior and not up to spec but you cant assume that is the case for every single manufacturer. This is why you have to do your homework. From what I understand these are the same vessels that are imported and sold by one if not more US wholesalers who supply to breweries. Can anyone confirm this?
Makes sense. I only brought it up because it was a major corny keg distributor that was deciding whether to go with China made stuff or Italian and all the companies they found in China weren't up to par with regards to holding pressurized gases. Stated they were rated for up to so many PSI but were failing far below the acceptable PSI. Again just sometihng i wanted to mention just cuz it seems like this is gonna be a big investment for people, i would hate to see ya get stuck with a bad product, especially one that could lead to ruined brew
I agree with you. Im curious as well. I have heard of the QC issues you spoke of with a few different facets of the brewing industry, specifically SS kegs. If these are the same ones imported to the US by a few wholesalers than that is enough for me. I just need some confirm this 100%.
So just got an email back from our supplier and he confirms that they are the supplier for glacier tanks to their Portland warehouse..
So.. If you want more Info on the tanks look at glaciers website..
There you go. I guess you could call Glacier tanks and ask them who their supplier is...
OP
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CrankyBeaverBrewery
Well-Known Member
Well these tanks are the exact same ones from glacier.. So the welds glacier are selling are the welds we would get..
Also the sales rep did confirm they supply glacier tanks with their products and confirmed the owners and names of the people they deal with at glacier
Also the sales rep did confirm they supply glacier tanks with their products and confirmed the owners and names of the people they deal with at glacier
Just playing devils advocate here
Your point is not neccesarally true. Yes, they supply Glacier (we'll take their word for it at the moment), but Glacier seem to be buying a lot of these tanks so to continue to sell to them the supplier would have to make sure they keep up with their quality.
For this purchase you would be buying a small number (in their terms) of one off tanks and if there is little chance of loosing repeat business (because there is not likely to be any repeat business anyway) you might not get the same treatment as Glacier does.
I have heard of sotries where the first 1, 2, 3, etc. small batches from a supplier in China is perfect then once the $500k order is placed the quality drops off sharply (this could be because the company actually over extended itself and could not deliver quality in the timeframe rather than intentionally being a dick).
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
Glacier does all of the warranty work for this supplier. So if something does come up a bit short for whatever reason, it can be corrected fairly easily.
I've heard the same story that the 304 steel coming from China isn't "real" because a magnet doesn't stick to it. Funny enough, if your magnet sticks to 304 stainless, it's not 304 stainless. That's actually one of the reasons 304 is used in medical applications and instruments, it has a low magnetic reactance.
I've heard the same story that the 304 steel coming from China isn't "real" because a magnet doesn't stick to it. Funny enough, if your magnet sticks to 304 stainless, it's not 304 stainless. That's actually one of the reasons 304 is used in medical applications and instruments, it has a low magnetic reactance.
Unless it is work hardened
I guess if the Chinesse supplier will foot the bill to repair unsatisfactory fabrications through Glacier then I would expect them not to send any unsatisfactory products out the door in the first place. Has that been confirmed?
I guess the other side is they would not want a bunch of people going around saying that they bought tanks from the same supplier as Glacier and they are rubbish, that would hurt Glacier and eventually them.
I think the real problem for Chinesse suppliers is that for every legit one there are 10 or more dodgy ones. I have heard of conterfeit bearings that are better build quality than the ones they knock-off... except whoever reverse engineered the original messed up one critical dimension which meant they ran great but could not be regreased!
On your 304 story I have heard bundles of high strength steel where the outer 1-2 pieces are what were ordered and the middle of the bundle is low quality mild steel when check with a spectrometer!
As always it is a case of buyer beware and do your due diligence (which it seems like it is happening)
OP
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CrankyBeaverBrewery
Well-Known Member
So the time has come.. If we have enough people ( to commit ) this weekend or next.. Lets place our order.. Anybody still on the fence ??
Can I get a final head count to who's in the order.. Reply here or pm me with what your looking to order..
Also perfered payment system.. ??
PayPal good with everyone.. ?
Also once I get the head count.. Il get the dimensions in what the supplier with ship the fermenters in then I can give everyone an estimate from Seattle port to their respected addresses..
Can I get a final head count to who's in the order.. Reply here or pm me with what your looking to order..
Also perfered payment system.. ??
PayPal good with everyone.. ?
Also once I get the head count.. Il get the dimensions in what the supplier with ship the fermenters in then I can give everyone an estimate from Seattle port to their respected addresses..
I might be interested in either 2 15 gallon jacketed conicals or 2 10 gallon jacketed conicals (depending on if we have confirmed they have 25% headspace)... How much would they be? Thanks.
Hey Cranky, good luck with the group buy. Since I am in New Zealand it would be pointless for me to join in but I am interested in how this goes.
Please keep this thread updated when the fermenters come in, as I might look at getting some for a future project I am working on...
Again good luck, your doing a great service with this one
MaxOut
Well-Known Member
I'm down for two 1BBL non jacketed. PayPal is good and shipping would be to hughesville, md. Give me some final # s and exact options included . I would like all accessories including pressure relief. Thanks
OP
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CrankyBeaverBrewery
Well-Known Member
Some possible good news.. We have a member in china that I have set up a tour of the facility to see welds and and the whole operation..
So for anyone who is on the fence hopefully once he does the tour he can put your mind at ease.
So for anyone who is on the fence hopefully once he does the tour he can put your mind at ease.
OP
OP
CrankyBeaverBrewery
Well-Known Member
$1200 for the 15 gallon jacketed and $1150 for the 10 gallon jacketed.. And for head space he hasn't confirmed just yet
bmason1623
Well-Known Member
I have a spanking brand new jacketed 2 BBL with all of the accessories for sale. $2750 and it's yours.
Quaker
Beer Missionary
CrankyBeaverBrewery said:
Barring something unexpected, I'll be there Saturday morning.
awesome.
Good work Quaker! See if you can take photos of their factory and gear to post back on here, only if they are happy for you to ofcoarse.
Quaker
Beer Missionary
I visited Haishun this morning and spent 2 hours there. In short form, I think everyone will be safe ordering from there. Below is a summary of my observations and some photos.
Materials: They order their steel stock in coil form in large quantities from a single source. Typically about 20T per lot. They get 3rd party confirmation of the material certs prior to delivery. They had a bad experience with some of their first brewery tanks in 2006 due to purchasing some sheet from a local distributor, and that drove them to their current supplier and attention to selection. I saw a sampling of their material certificates. They do outsource the machined items such as tri-clamp fittings and components. Although not applicable to the fermenters, for motorized equipment they source Siemens motors, Metler Toledo load cells, and other global brands to ensure reliability and serviceability in their export markets.
Workshop: It is a Chinese factory, no doubt about that. They have 2 separate workshops which I'd estimate at around 20,000 square feet. One is used for metal cutting and fabrication of control panel housings. They have duplicate equipment, one dedicated to the stainless and the other for the cold rolled steel used in the control housings. The stainless tank fabrication shop is dusty and dirty from all the grinding and polishing work happening. They are obviously busy with most of the floorspace utilized. At the time of my visit, there were no home brew sized units completed on the floor. Most of the work in progress was larger, 7-20 bbl. There was a 300L unit which had completed the jacket installation, but wasn't clad yet.
Processes: All welding is manual. They do have some machines for grinding and polishing the radial seam welds. All the welds for fittings, leg attachments, etc. are ground and polished manually. In all the parts I looked at, I could not see any surface porosity or cracks in the welds. In some of the photos below you may get that impression, but what you are probably seeing is dust on the surface. I noted a couple places where the welders were referencing a packet of drawings and specs for their specific job which was on the floor with them, because there is no standard unit. Nearly all their orders are customized.
Inspection: There is an inspection step by a QC person of the prepped components prior to going to the tank fabrication area. They do a 6 bar water pressure test of the jackets prior to insulating and cladding them. They test the final tank completed tank to 2 bar.
Products: Brewing equipment is about 40% of their business. Of that, they mostly make small to medium sized units. The homebrew items are just a small piece of the business. They don't normally put a jacket on anything less than 1 bbl or 100L. They can jacket a 20 gallon, but don't recommend it. There just isn't much effective area on it by the time they work around any connections, legs, etc. His preferred minimum buy is 10 pieces. That's not for efficiency in the process, because they don't require them to be all the same design or size. It's more for the efficiency of managing the exportation documents and clearances. They can accommodate specific requirements. They will provide a drawing per your request for review. So if there are multiple requests, make sure you get and review each individual drawings.
I'll be ordering one 15 gallon fermenter directly from them, since I have the luxury of being local, avoiding the 17% VAT, and no exportation required. Lead time is 2 months based on their current order book.
Materials: They order their steel stock in coil form in large quantities from a single source. Typically about 20T per lot. They get 3rd party confirmation of the material certs prior to delivery. They had a bad experience with some of their first brewery tanks in 2006 due to purchasing some sheet from a local distributor, and that drove them to their current supplier and attention to selection. I saw a sampling of their material certificates. They do outsource the machined items such as tri-clamp fittings and components. Although not applicable to the fermenters, for motorized equipment they source Siemens motors, Metler Toledo load cells, and other global brands to ensure reliability and serviceability in their export markets.
Workshop: It is a Chinese factory, no doubt about that. They have 2 separate workshops which I'd estimate at around 20,000 square feet. One is used for metal cutting and fabrication of control panel housings. They have duplicate equipment, one dedicated to the stainless and the other for the cold rolled steel used in the control housings. The stainless tank fabrication shop is dusty and dirty from all the grinding and polishing work happening. They are obviously busy with most of the floorspace utilized. At the time of my visit, there were no home brew sized units completed on the floor. Most of the work in progress was larger, 7-20 bbl. There was a 300L unit which had completed the jacket installation, but wasn't clad yet.
Processes: All welding is manual. They do have some machines for grinding and polishing the radial seam welds. All the welds for fittings, leg attachments, etc. are ground and polished manually. In all the parts I looked at, I could not see any surface porosity or cracks in the welds. In some of the photos below you may get that impression, but what you are probably seeing is dust on the surface. I noted a couple places where the welders were referencing a packet of drawings and specs for their specific job which was on the floor with them, because there is no standard unit. Nearly all their orders are customized.
Inspection: There is an inspection step by a QC person of the prepped components prior to going to the tank fabrication area. They do a 6 bar water pressure test of the jackets prior to insulating and cladding them. They test the final tank completed tank to 2 bar.
Products: Brewing equipment is about 40% of their business. Of that, they mostly make small to medium sized units. The homebrew items are just a small piece of the business. They don't normally put a jacket on anything less than 1 bbl or 100L. They can jacket a 20 gallon, but don't recommend it. There just isn't much effective area on it by the time they work around any connections, legs, etc. His preferred minimum buy is 10 pieces. That's not for efficiency in the process, because they don't require them to be all the same design or size. It's more for the efficiency of managing the exportation documents and clearances. They can accommodate specific requirements. They will provide a drawing per your request for review. So if there are multiple requests, make sure you get and review each individual drawings.
I'll be ordering one 15 gallon fermenter directly from them, since I have the luxury of being local, avoiding the 17% VAT, and no exportation required. Lead time is 2 months based on their current order book.
Quaker
Beer Missionary
A few more pictures
MaxOut
Well-Known Member
Looks good!
wow. I was thinking as reading this thread from the beginning this wouldn't turn out too good...
I say that because from another site, car/truck related, someone had found stainless truck headers cheap from China & started to spread the word on how cheap they were in price... When others ordered them & went to install they:
1 didn't fit correctly
2 were a cheap softer grade stainless & not what grade they said they were
3 the welds looked like a 6yr old ran a wire feed around them
It is awesome a member actually went and did a plant tour, even more awesome they let you take some pictures!! Those look very nice.
I say that because from another site, car/truck related, someone had found stainless truck headers cheap from China & started to spread the word on how cheap they were in price... When others ordered them & went to install they:
1 didn't fit correctly
2 were a cheap softer grade stainless & not what grade they said they were
3 the welds looked like a 6yr old ran a wire feed around them
It is awesome a member actually went and did a plant tour, even more awesome they let you take some pictures!! Those look very nice.
I am in for 2 15 gallon non-jacketed fermenters. Provided we can confirm the following:
-They do have the 25% headspace.
-I can get it all 1.5" triclamp fittings
-I assume they don't come with any valves etc...but can we confirm this?
-If possible I would like to not have the thermowell on the side and have a 2nd triclamp fitting in the lid. (one in the center for a new thermowell and 1 off center for airlock/blowoff)
Do we know what the costs are looking like to have these shipped over yet?
-They do have the 25% headspace.
-I can get it all 1.5" triclamp fittings
-I assume they don't come with any valves etc...but can we confirm this?
-If possible I would like to not have the thermowell on the side and have a 2nd triclamp fitting in the lid. (one in the center for a new thermowell and 1 off center for airlock/blowoff)
Do we know what the costs are looking like to have these shipped over yet?
Interesting.....
Quaker
Beer Missionary
I'm definitely not taking over for Cranky, but I can address some of these. The 7/10/15gal homebrew units are not 25% headspace. The 15 gallon is closer to 65L total volume or 17+ gallons. For me that was fine, because I figured max batch would be about 12 gallons pitching volume, but a true 15 gallon batch may be an issue.
The valve on the racking port and bottom dump are normally assumed included. You can get what you want for tri-clamps, thermowell's etc.
To get a final quote on shipping, a final number on units is necessary. Any numbers provided prior are just rough estimates assuming 10 units.
My recommendation is for people to decide if they're in or out. Use the previous pricing guidance and quit waffling, then proceed to step 2 which would be spec'ing out each person's units for a final quotation. For example, if the totals are 4x 15 gallon, 5x 1bbl and 1x 2bbl, then I expect they will provide Cranky with a standard drawing for each. Then people could mark that up for the specific items they want. Drawings would be updated by Haishun and a formal quote provided. I'd recommend Cranky look through each person's drawings of common sizes to see if people can agree on a common configuration - not required, but I think it would make it easier.
I'll share my drawing once I get it next week. I requested a thermowell sized for a Ranco temp probe located below the 20L level line, heavy duty casters, and an immersion cooling coil integrated in with some turns also below 20L so I can use a simple temp control setup with an aquarium pump and ice water in a cooler. Most of my batches will still be 5-6 gallons for now until I can upgrade my little mash tun, which probably won't happen until I return to the US. Although now I'm mulling over a second conical, tossing in my false bottom, installing a heating element below that, buying a March pump, and building a controller for a RIMS configuration... but alas, I'm already stretching the wife's sense of reasonable "investments".
I agree. That's why I didn't put a dash by the shipping costs question. Though I do think it's important to have at the very least a rough estimate.
I know they usually come with valves... But who knows what happens when you order direct from China... Would still like to see that in writing somewhere. I know I can buy them I already own a conical... I'll be OK as long as all the fittings are 1.5" Tri-Clamp.
Headspace sounds fine for my needs.
Like I said. In for two 15 gallon unjacketed.
I know they usually come with valves... But who knows what happens when you order direct from China... Would still like to see that in writing somewhere. I know I can buy them I already own a conical... I'll be OK as long as all the fittings are 1.5" Tri-Clamp.
Headspace sounds fine for my needs.
Like I said. In for two 15 gallon unjacketed.
I'm in for 2x 1.5bbl unjacketed.
Paypal would be good.
How are we going to do the payments? 30% to get the order rolling, balance when they're ready to ship?
I'm in Seattle, so no shipping required, and give me a PM Cranky, I can probably help facilitate shipping/freight for everyone.
Paypal would be good.
How are we going to do the payments? 30% to get the order rolling, balance when they're ready to ship?
I'm in Seattle, so no shipping required, and give me a PM Cranky, I can probably help facilitate shipping/freight for everyone.
OP
OP
CrankyBeaverBrewery
Well-Known Member
i think its gunna turn out great.. good prices.. also once we place our order and all our tanks are ready to ship they said they can hold onto them all for us and get them looked for from Quaker to make sure all welds are up to spec.. ( if quaker has the time ) and its a 2 month lead time soo..
paypal is good for me if its good for everyone else ?
im just trying to get the dimensions of the shipping boxes they would be using for each fermenter so i can plug that into shipping calculator and get those estimates out.. could i get your zip codes ? pm with your zip codes and order and i will get back to you on the estimate..
Im thinking we should do 50% upfront and then once they are ready to ship the other 50% ?
paypal is good for me if its good for everyone else ?
im just trying to get the dimensions of the shipping boxes they would be using for each fermenter so i can plug that into shipping calculator and get those estimates out.. could i get your zip codes ? pm with your zip codes and order and i will get back to you on the estimate..
Im thinking we should do 50% upfront and then once they are ready to ship the other 50% ?
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