Carmalized sugar unfermentable?

[cnadon]

I brewed a Clone of the Ommegang Abbey Ale. Instead of 2.5 lbs of corn sugar, I used .5 lbs of table sugar and 2.0 lbs of sugar that I carmalized pretty dark with the addition of some lime. I also mashed out for 5 minutes at 167*

The recipe OG is 1.074. I came in around 1.081. I fermented with WLP 550, 1.5 litre starter and let it rise to 80*. After a week of very active fermentation, there was no more bubbling, but the gravity was at 1.024, instead of the recipe's FG of 1.013. After another week at 72*, the FG is still around 1.022.

Question: would the use of carmalized sugar have given me unfermentables that are keeping the FG high, or is this perhaps stuck.

I'm planning on conditioning for a week or two at 38* and then bottling. Will they blow?

 

[ACbrewer]

tentatively I'd say yes. going from what it makes see here
http://www.scienceofcooking.com/caramelization.htm

Caramelization Products:

2C12H22O11 = 4H20 C24H36O18 Caramelan
3C12H22O11 = 8H20 C36H50O25 Caramelen
Continued heating yields caramelin C125H188O80

ok so if these are just rings getting larger and larger they'd eventually make a product that the yeast cant get at. Most of the time the yeast seems to go after 2 and 3 ring sugars (6 carbons in ring. a glucose is a single ring, table sugar a double ring, as is maltose a double ring). In mashing you take the multi chains of rings and break them down to either 2 or 3 rings. the Caramelan looks like a 4 ring and the caramelen is 6 with the the caramelin being 20 rings.

So off hand yes I'd guess that it won't go any farther with the yeast. I'm sure something else could eat the carmel, but then it would wreck the beer. How does it taste?

 

[cnadon]

Thanks for the links.
The beer tastes pretty good and not as sweet as I would expect from such a high FG. But I just started brewing this summer and don't have a lot of experience.

My worry is making bottle bombs. I'm wondering , would a little champange yeast ruin it?

 

[cnadon]

Here's the recipe I used and mash temps. Would the Crystal and other specialty malts also increase non fermentables?

Thanks.

Abbey Ale

5 lbs. 9.6 oz.
(2.54 kg) Pilsner
malt
2.25 lbs. (1.02 kg)
aromatic malt
1 lb. 6.4 oz.
(0.64 kg) crystal
malt (20 °L)
2.25 lbs. (1.02 kg) Briess Special
Roast malt (50 °L)
2.66 lbs (1.21 kg) corn sugar
6.25 AAU Styrian Goldings
hops (60 mins)
(1.25 oz./35 g of 5% alpha acids)
0.33 oz. Styrian Goldings
hops (0 mins)
0.25 oz. (7 g) Curacao orange peel
0.5 oz. (14 g) licorice root
Wyeast 1214 (Belgian Ale) yeast
or cultured Ommegang yeast
1.2 cups corn sugar (for priming)

Step by Step

Step mash with a 10-min. rest at 113 °F (45 °C), a 10-min. rest at 144 °F (62 °C), a 15-min. rest at 154 °F (68 °C), a 15-min. rest at 162 °F (72 °C) and a 5-min. rest at 169 °F (76 °C). Boil for 90 minutes, adding corn sugar at the beginning of the boil. Add orange peel and licorice for final 15 minutes of the boil. Ferment 76–84 °F (24–29 °C). (Yes, that hot.) Condition for 2 weeks at 28 °F (-2 °C). Keg and adjust to 3.0 volumes CO2. Or bottle in heavy bottles with corn sugar with a target of 3.5 volumes of CO2.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

That looks like the BYO clone. I looked at the same clone but it seemed to heavy on darker grains and too light on the pils. Yes, the carmelization will effect the fermentability but with <50% Pilsner my concern was whether or not the pils would have enough diastatic power to convert the other grains. I think the sugar was probably meant to counteract that but carmelizing it may have defeated the purpose. When I brewed it I upped the pils and lowered the aromatic and special malts a bit. I also threw in a little Special B, which kind of serves the same purpose (flavorwise) as carmelizing the sugar. You could try adding some amylase enzyme to encourage some more fermentation.

 

[cnadon]

Yes, the BYO clone. I'll get some amylase and give it a dose this evening. Thanks.

 

[cnadon]

BTW, should I worry about the amylase not stopping since the enzyme isn't used up in the reaction? I don't have a keg and am planning on bottling the beer.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I've never had that problem with AE. I've heard that Beano will keep going but AE is just supplying more of the enzyme that it got originally from the grain. My understanding is that it basically makes up for the conversion power that was lacking in the original mash. Once it has converted whatever is left to convert it will stop. Someone with more knowledge of the chemistry may be able to explain it better (or tell you that I'm entirely wrong).

 

[5mooth0perator]

tentatively I'd say yes. going from what it makes see here
http://www.scienceofcooking.com/caramelization.htm

Caramelization Products:

2C12H22O11 = 4H20 C24H36O18 Caramelan
3C12H22O11 = 8H20 C36H50O25 Caramelen
Continued heating yields caramelin C125H188O80

ok so if these are just rings getting larger and larger they'd eventually make a product that the yeast cant get at. Most of the time the yeast seems to go after 2 and 3 ring sugars (6 carbons in ring. a glucose is a single ring, table sugar a double ring, as is maltose a double ring). In mashing you take the multi chains of rings and break them down to either 2 or 3 rings. the Caramelan looks like a 4 ring and the caramelen is 6 with the the caramelin being 20 rings.

So off hand yes I'd guess that it won't go any farther with the yeast. I'm sure something else could eat the carmel, but then it would wreck the beer. How does it taste?

I had researched this a little recently. Caramelization is an unpredictable process, many different compounds are produced, by fusing sugars. My suspicion is that they are not fully fermentable, however some enzymatic reactions might still occur on parts of the compounds that still resemble sugars, possibly producing fusel alcohols and larger esters.

 

[raysmithtx]

Using a hydrometer or refractometer to get the Gravity reading?

 

[cnadon]

I hav

 

[cnadon]

I used a hydrometer for both OG and FG.

I decided to take a half cup, add a bit of amylase, and let it sit at 72* to see how low the gravity goes (a week or two?). No harm in waiting to bottle, I suppose. But I do get thirsty.

 

[ACbrewer]

I had researched this a little recently. Caramelization is an unpredictable process, many different compounds are produced, by fusing sugars. My suspicion is that they are not fully fermentable, however some enzymatic reactions might still occur on parts of the compounds that still resemble sugars, possibly producing fusel alcohols and larger esters.

The question was "was it possible that carmelization could result in a higher og" and I think the answer to that is yes. But I take your point also. We make nice neat chemistry equations, but the solution is usually a lot messier than that.

So it would be best to say, his ferment could be done if the carmelization has built a lot of big molecules that the yeast can't eat. Or it could be still going. In fact since just about all beer has some bacteria pollution, if the right bacteria are in there, it could go from that.

 

[ACbrewer]

I used a hydrometer for both OG and FG.

I decided to take a half cup, add a bit of amylase, and let it sit at 72* to see how low the gravity goes (a week or two?). No harm in waiting to bottle, I suppose. But I do get thirsty.

this is probably your best idea going forward. And thirsty is as thirsty does

 

[cnadon]

Well, a week after adding the amylase and a bit of champagne yeast, my half cup is stiil standing unbudged at 1.022. Given that the OG was about 10 points high at 1.082, the ABV is right where the recipe wants it, 7.8%. So I'm bottling and looking forward to a thick, sweet brew in a couple weeks and for sometime thereafter. Thanks to all for your help.