Carbonation Problem (help!)

[HopHouse]

Let me preface by saying that this is my first time kegging and I may just be freaking out because its new and I don't know all of what to expect.

I kegged a hefeweizen on Wednesday night so about 3 days ago. I followed common advice that I've read here: Santized keg. Checked for leaks with star San. Siphoned into keg. Placed lid on, put 20 psi on to seal lid and purged oxygen from headspace. Placed in freezer with temp controller set to 40F. Connected gas, and set to 30 psi and held it there until last night (about 48 hours). I wanted to test it so I turned off gas, purged headspace, turned regulator down to 12 psi, connected my 5 ft picnic tap that cAme with kit to the liquid side, and drew a pint. Foam city. I poured it out and turned down regulator to 8. Still quite foamy. Turned down once more to 3-5 psi and this time I got a good pour. After reading quite a bit last night, I turned it back up to 12 psi overnight so as to keep proper pressure in the keg. Tonight I drew a pint and it was foamy again and very flat.

Do I need longer lines? Do I need to give it more time at 12 psi? I know I could have set and forgot about it for a couple weeks but obviously I was wanting to test out force Carbing this way.

Anybody got some answers?

 

[machineglen]

Let me first say that the best way to force carb a beer is to set the pressure as per a carbonation chart and let it sit. Im usually too impatient so here is some advice on how to speed things up. Be warned that it is easy to over carbonate your beer when you do this.

First off dispensing at 12 psi is too high and is causing your foam even though you have flat beer. Try dispensing at 4-5 psi with a picnic tap.

temperature, pressure and agitation all have an effect on how rapidly co2 is dissolved in beer. How i force carb beer is to get it cold (40 F) set the pressure to 30 psi and GENTLY shake or rock the keg for about one minuet. You will hear the Co2 going into solution. Don't shake the heck out of it or go longer than a minuet or you will over carbonate your beer. After shaking i keep the keg charged at 30 psi , disconnect or turn off the gas and leave it alone at 40 F overnight. Next day it turn the gas back on at dispensing pressure burp the keg and pull a pint.

Hope this helps

 

[brettg20]

+1 on above but 4-5 psi is a bit too low even with a picnic tap

 

[JuanMoore]

You need a longer line, or epoxy mixer sticks in the diptube. The reason it's flat is likely that a lot of the CO2 is being lost to foam. It could possibly be slightly overcarbed also, I typically only go 36 hrs at 30psi the rare times I'm in a rush to carbonate. You're opening the faucet all the way when pouring right? It might help if you hold the faucet as high as possible while pouring too.

First off dispensing at 12 psi is too high and is causing your foam even though you have flat beer. Try dispensing at 4-5 psi with a picnic tap.

If the OP wants to serve his beer at 40° and maintain ~2.5 vol of carbonation, then 12psi is the perfect serving pressure. It's the same serving pressure (and temperature) that I use. If you carb a beer to 2.5 vol and store it at 40°, but serve at only 4-5psi, CO2 will break out of solution in the lines while it sits, causing the first pour of every drinking session to be foamy. It will also cause the beer to lose carbonation with every pour, until it eventually only has ~1.8 vol. Or are you suggesting the OP store the beer on 12psi, but then purge and reset the pressure to 4-5psi every time he wants a beer, and then turn it back up to 12 psi?

 

[HopHouse]

So if I am reading this correctly, to serve with my 5 foot lines I will need to set pressure down to 4-5 psi and then raise back to 12 psi when not serving so the beer remains at correct carbonation based on my 40 F freezer.

Is this correct? Sounds like it'd be easiest to get some 10 foot lines for my beer and balance my system so I don't have to continually change pressures.

That sound correct to you guys out there?

 

[JuanMoore]

So if I am reading this correctly, to serve with my 5 foot lines I will need to set pressure down to 4-5 psi and then raise back to 12 psi when not serving so the beer remains at correct carbonation based on my 40 F freezer.

Is this correct? Sounds like it'd be easiest to get some 10 foot lines for my beer and balance my system so I don't have to continually change pressures.

That sound correct to you guys out there?

Yep, you're right on the money.

 

[day_trippr]

A serving system has to be balanced for beer temperature and the level of carbonation. The pressure derived from those two factors should be used for both carbonation and serving.

The proverbial "10 foot line" that so many recommend as a good length to use (myself included) actually best applies to typical carbonation levels - ie: 2.5-2.7 volumes or so - and not the level that a hefe carbed to style requires (mid-point around 4 volumes).

You will find yourself still fighting foam issues unless you lengthen the lines, probably in the neighborhood of 15 feet for conventional barrier tubing (eg: Bevlex 200), and 20 feet for the Bev-Seal Ultra series 235 stuff (which is slicker than puppy poop).

fwiw, with 10' of Bevlex 200, when I serve sprightly brews like hefes I have to use a couple of epoxy mixer sticks to make up for the lack of line length...

Cheers!

 

[HopHouse]

Ok- so I still need some help as I'm a bit lost now. As I stated in original post, I started this whole process by kegging a Hefeweizen and sticking into chest freezer with temp controller set to 40-41 degrees. I set the regulator to 30 PSI and left for 48 hours. I then turned down to 12 psi, bled tried to serve and got all foam with my 5 foot lines and picnic tap.

Per suggestions, I went out and bought 10 foot lines and bumped up my pressure as I really want my Hef at about 3 volumes which at 40F is like 18 psi. I set the reg to 18 and waited 24 hours. First bad thing that happened is the new pressure caused my picnic tap to leak and I lost a small but noticeable amount of beer out of the drain in my kegerator. Streamed all the way out my garage for probably an hour. I unhooked the beverage line and ran star San through it and stuck it the chest freezer alongside my other kegs to cool. Tonight I came back to test, so 48 hours at 18 psi... Hooked up my beer line and dried to draw a pint, opened up fully into a tall hef glass along the side and all foam. Tried another and same thing.

Can I not serve and carbonate at 18 psi with my system? Do I need longer lines yet again? I've seen others on the boards use 10 foot line and get good results with 18 psi or 3 volumes. This is anything but the "slower" pour I've seen Yooper post about... Mine is fast and foamy.

So am I overcarbed? Need longer line again? No idea where to go from here

 

[JuanMoore]

With 30psi for 2 days I seriously doubt you got over 3vol (unless you shook the keg), so I doubt you're overcarbed. You will absolutely need longer lines for what you described though. The more carbonation the beer has, the more the CO2 wants to come out of solution, and the slower you have to pour it to prevent foaming. Same thing for higher temperatures. At 40f and 3 vol, the beer's going to want to foam some no matter how gently you poor it, since the CO2 is so far from equilibrium. To slow the pour down enough, you'll likely need a ~20' line, and/or epoxy mixer sticks in the diptube.

Did you try holding the faucet as high as possible when pouring? That will add a little resistance and help slow the pour down a little as well.

Another possible issue is the picnic faucet. They can sometimes have rough edges from the molding process that create problems with beer that's on the verge of foaming. I've seen some that had molding flash so bad that the faucet was essentially unusable. You might try taking it apart and trimming any flash off with an exacto.

 

[Bobby_M]

Are you opening the tap fully? If you only squeeze half way, you'll pull the carbonation out due to the restriction.

 

[HopHouse]

Are you opening the tap fully? If you only squeeze half way, you'll pull the carbonation out due to the restriction.

Yes I am fully tapping the picnic faucet. I tried a different approach after two pints of foam. Turned off gas, bled pressure through relief valve, reset reg to 10 psi, and then turn gas back on and served. Nice slow pour, carbonation stayed in solution and I got a good head. Beer tasted good, little carbonic acid which I assume is because I just kicked up the pressure a few days ago so that will subside.

I'm curious what people do to deal with high pressure serving for beers like this. I've got a Saison about the be kegged soon and it's looking more and more like I need to extend my line length even more for these beers.

I am looking at getting Perlick faucets soon and completing my kegerator build. Will these have any effect on the situation other than stopping the "leak" problem, or will I still need the 20+ ft lines to work with high carb beers like Hefs and Saisons?

 

[JuanMoore]

You'll need longer lines even with the perlicks. They'll make the flow slightly smoother, reducing foam a little, but the difference will be minimal. Other possible solutions are expensive flow control faucets, the epoxy mixer sticks, or lowering the serving temp (and pressure correspondingly).

 

[HopHouse]

You'll need longer lines even with the perlicks. They'll make the flow slightly smoother, reducing foam a little, but the difference will be minimal. Other possible solutions are expensive flow control faucets, the epoxy mixer sticks, or lowering the serving temp (and pressure correspondingly).

Will the perlick's with the flow knob help the problem or would I still need longer lines?

How long are we talking... 15'...20'?

 

[JuanMoore]

Will the perlick's with the flow knob help the problem or would I still need longer lines?

How long are we talking... 15'...20'?

The flow control faucets should fix it. Otherwise probably 20' lines.

 

[kentmich]

Balancing your line is easily done, and should cure your foaming problem. Beersmith.com has a good blog describing how to do it. Go to beersmith.com and then hit the search box and put in Keg line length. It explains all.

With everyone talking ten and twenty foot lines, it's obvious you're using 1/4 inch tubing. If you just go to smaller 3/16 tubing you increase the resistance per foot of line and don't need as much. With 3/16 inch tubing you should get a good pour at 18 psi with only 5.6 feet of tube instead of the 20 feet you would need for 1/4 inch tubing.
Sure, the stir sticks would work, but who needs a 20' coil of tubing for a picnic faucet when 5' will do?

Even if your faucet and QD have 1/4" barbs, you should be able to get the 3/16" tubing to fit if you heat it in hot water first.

Check out the blog, and it all comes clear.

 

[day_trippr]

Fyi, I doubt anyone is thinking 1/4" lines. I definitely wasn't...

Cheers!

 

[JuanMoore]

Balancing your line is easily done, and should cure your foaming problem. Beersmith.com has a good blog describing how to do it. Go to beersmith.com and then hit the search box and put in Keg line length. It explains all.

With everyone talking ten and twenty foot lines, it's obvious you're using 1/4 inch tubing. If you just go to smaller 3/16 tubing you increase the resistance per foot of line and don't need as much. With 3/16 inch tubing you should get a good pour at 18 psi with only 5.6 feet of tube instead of the 20 feet you would need for 1/4 inch tubing.
Sure, the stir sticks would work, but who needs a 20' coil of tubing for a picnic faucet when 5' will do?

Even if your faucet and QD have 1/4" barbs, you should be able to get the 3/16" tubing to fit if you heat it in hot water first.

Check out the blog, and it all comes clear.

No, we're talking about 3/16" ID line. The beersmith blog is based on the micromatic classes/seminars, which were created for servicing commercial draught systems. They use some assumptions that don't always apply in home systems. The first thing is that they only calculate the line length to provide a pour speed of ~1gal/min. That's fine for commercial systems where the beer is kept under 38° and the carb levels under ~2.8 vol. If you serve beer warmer than that, or carbed higher, you'll likely need a slower pour speed to prevent foam.

Here's where it gets complicated. The line resistance figures and tables are all based on that 1gal/min flow rate. Since line resistance isn't a constant, but is actually dependent on the flow rate, those figures and equations become useless for the slower flow rates that many of us require. The slower the flow rate, the less resistance a line will have, meaning that slowing the flow just a little could easily require doubling the line length.

Another misconception about the standard line balancing equations is that they give you the length least likely to cause foam, which is not true. They often refer to the "ideal" line length, which is where I think the confusion stems. What it actually calculates is the bare minimum length required to prevent excessively foamy pours. For a busy bar where the number of pints they can pour in a minute has an impact on profit and customer satisfaction, that probably is ideal. The only side effect of longer lines is a slightly slower pour, and IMO the "ideal" line length for most home brewers is one that allows serving at a wide variety of carbonation levels and temperatures. I have 18' lines in my keezer, and while it takes an extra couple seconds to pour a beer, I feel like it's a small price to pay for the flexibility of my system.

 

[Brew-ta-sauraus]

Let me first say that the best way to force carb a beer is to set the pressure as per a carbonation chart and let it sit. Im usually too impatient so here is some advice on how to speed things up. Be warned that it is easy to over carbonate your beer when you do this.

First off dispensing at 12 psi is too high and is causing your foam even though you have flat beer. Try dispensing at 4-5 psi with a picnic tap.

temperature, pressure and agitation all have an effect on how rapidly co2 is dissolved in beer. How i force carb beer is to get it cold (40 F) set the pressure to 30 psi and GENTLY shake or rock the keg for about one minuet. You will hear the Co2 going into solution. Don't shake the heck out of it or go longer than a minuet or you will over carbonate your beer. After shaking i keep the keg charged at 30 psi , disconnect or turn off the gas and leave it alone at 40 F overnight. Next day it turn the gas back on at dispensing pressure burp the keg and pull a pint.

Hope this helps

I follow the exadct same process as Machineglen and get the same results.