Carbonated Beer transfer from Conical to keg using a spunding valve

[USMChueston0311]

Hey guys,

I ferment and carbonate with my spike CF15. I have been using their closed loop transfer setup, and have issues with foam. I transfer at around 35-36 degrees F.

I was recently told I could use a spunding valve on the Corny keg, and pressurize the corny and use the spunding valve some how to transfer and equalize/reduce the pressure to fill and avoid Co2 coming out of solution. I have searched for about an hour now, and can't find anything demonstrating this or any information pertaining to my specific setup.

Does anyone else do this and have any tips or a explanation so that when I keg my oatmeal stout this week I can use this method and avoid foam and loss of co2.

When I sample the beer from sample valve it tastes very good and carbonated to appropriate volumes, but when I pour a pint after transfer its under carbed and not the same. It takes a few days on gas to get back to where it was before transfer.

Thank you

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yes, the back pressure will suppress the foam. Say your fermenter is at 15 PSI, set your spunding valve to maybe 11 or 12 PSI, and then push CO2 into your fermenter at maybe 20 PSI, or whatever is necessary as it empties to keep the fermenter at 14-15 PSI.

Alternatively, leave the keg closed and just intermittently pop the PRV to let out pressure. Or get a ball valve adaptor on the gas post and barely crack it open.

 

[USMChueston0311]

Yes, the back pressure will suppress the foam. Say your fermenter is at 15 PSI, set your spunding valve to maybe 11 or 12 PSI, and then push CO2 into your fermenter at maybe 20 PSI, or whatever is necessary as it empties to keep the fermenter at 14-15 PSI.

Alternatively, leave the keg closed and just intermittently pop the PRV to let out pressure. Or get a ball valve adaptor on the gas post and barely crack it open.

What is the point of the spunding valve then? I could just pressurize the keg and pop PRV periodically by what you're saying?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Popping the PRV is the cheap easy way of doing it. It's less accurate, and you still could get a lot of foaming and carb loss (though it'd be an improvement). As long as the keg pressure initially is below the tank pressure, it'll work. But if you're at perfect carb already, you can maintain that pressure precisely with the spunding valve and increase the head pressure on the fermenter to push. It's a toy and slightly more elegant. A cracked ball valve or floated pinhole fob (so that gas releases slowly) are common among smaller craft brewers filling kegs from brites. It's the exact same thing. They're easy to set up on sankey kegs. A bit tougher for a cornie

 

[USMChueston0311]

Popping the PRV is the cheap easy way of doing it. It's less accurate, and you still could get a lot of foaming and carb loss (though it'd be an improvement). As long as the keg pressure initially is below the tank pressure, it'll work. But if you're at perfect carb already, you can maintain that pressure precisely with the spunding valve and increase the head pressure on the fermenter to push. It's a toy and slightly more elegant. A cracked ball valve or floated pinhole fob (so that gas releases slowly) are common among smaller craft brewers filling kegs from brites. It's the exact same thing. They're easy to set up on sankey kegs. A bit tougher for a cornie

So basically if my conical is carbed and ready to transfer at 38f and 13-14PSI, I would purge, and then pressurize the corny to 12-13PSI? What would I set the spunding valve to? And would I leave the spunding valve set to the same pressure the entire transfer?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Keg pressure and spunding valve set to your equilibrium pressure for your desired carbonation (ex: 11.5 PSI at 38F for ~2.5 volumes). Presumably tank is already at the same. Then add 2 additional PSI head pressure to the tank (so 13.5 PSI). The once you're transferring, you'll want to increase the supply to the tank to keep that head pressure.

 

[Bilsch]

If your fermenter is at 15 psi then I'd set the spunding valve on your receiving keg at 15 also. Then add something more than 15psi to your fermenter and this will start the beer moving from the Spike to the keg. But I think I remember reading somewhere that the CF15 max pressure is 15 psi. If that is the case and you can't put more then 15 on it, then you are going to have to set the receiving keg at slightly less then 15, say 13 but when the beer gets there the pressure drop will cause CO2 to come out of solution and there will be foam. Certainly less than if the receiving keg had no pressure but some. What will also help is if you can get the transfer lines and receiving keg as cold as the beer.

 

[stevehaun]

I was having the same problem. I kegged today using a spunding valve set about 2 psi lower than the fermenter pressure. It worked great - no foaming.

 

[USMChueston0311]

View attachment 624464

I was having the same problem. I kegged today using a spunding valve set about 2 psi lower than the fermenter pressure. It worked great - no foaming.

Pmed.

 

[USMChueston0311]

If your fermenter is at 15 psi then I'd set the spunding valve on your receiving keg at 15 also. Then add something more than 15psi to your fermenter and this will start the beer moving from the Spike to the keg. But I think I remember reading somewhere that the CF15 max pressure is 15 psi. If that is the case and you can't put more then 15 on it, then you are going to have to set the receiving keg at slightly less then 15, say 13 but when the beer gets there the pressure drop will cause CO2 to come out of solution and there will be foam. Certainly less than if the receiving keg had no pressure but some. What will also help is if you can get the transfer lines and receiving keg as cold as the beer.

Couldnt I just de-gas the fermenter some? To even it out, say down to 12-13 and then set spunding at the same pressure, and add some gas to fermenter?

Im just trying to achieve foam free and loss of co2 keg fills.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Another option, if possible, is to either pump or gravity flow from your fermenter to your keg, and use a balance line. Basically allow the gas displaced from the keg to flow back to the headspace of the fermenter.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also are you deliberately carbing so high that 15 PSI and 38 is your equilibrium?

You could chill it further- normal ABV beer won't freeze at 30F and that'll drop your equilibrium pressure substantially. 11.5 PSI at 38F becomes 7.5PSI at 30F. Which if your fermenter max is 15 PSI gives you plenty of wiggle room.

 

[USMChueston0311]

Also are you deliberately carbing so high that 15 PSI and 38 is your equilibrium?

You could chill it further- normal ABV beer won't freeze at 30F and that'll drop your equilibrium pressure substantially. 11.5 PSI at 38F becomes 7.5PSI at 30F. Which if your fermenter max is 15 PSI gives you plenty of wiggle room.

I was using 15 a reference point. its usually around 12-13, i brew 13 gallon finished batches occasionally so it needs a higher volume of co2. This one will probably be around 12. Its hard for my cf15 w chiller to get down beneath 36 without constantly running. The lowest ive ever gotten is 35.

So if my conical is done at 12, i set my spunding valve to 12, after I purge and then pressurize to at least 12, and then add spunbding valve and transfer as usual?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I was using 15 a reference point. its usually around 12-13, i brew 13 gallon finished batches occasionally so it needs a higher volume of co2. This one will probably be around 12. Its hard for my cf15 w chiller to get down beneath 36 without constantly running. The lowest ive ever gotten is 35.

So if my conical is done at 12, i set my spunding valve to 12, after I purge and then pressurize to at least 12, and then add spunbding valve and transfer as usual?

Are we all imagining you had the fermenter at 15 or was that edited out? Because now I don't see you saying it other than now. If your tank can handle 15 PSI (I assume that's a PRV mechanism and it can physically hold more), you can set the tank pressure to 15 and force higher pressure gas in.

Get the fermenter, kegs, and transfer lines at your pressure at that temp, with the spunding valve if that pressure is greater than 13 PSI, then go colder so the whole system is at temp and stable and your beer is at desired carb at less than 13 PSI. Increase tank pressure *only* to 2 PSI higher than that (max 15). Once it's at the new pressure, *immediately* start transfer (you just wanna push the beer, not absorb any of the gas). You'll see the tank pressure drop. Add pressure to the tank *above* whatever PSI to matain the transfer pressure in the tank. I'd start with a 5 PSI increase on your regulator and go from there.

So a step by step example, for 2.5 volumes at 38F.

1. Tank set to 11.5 PSI and 38F, and allowed sufficient time to reach equilibrium (or if you've got a stone or something, quick carbed appropriately).

2. Sani and CO2 purge all your stuff. Get lines and keg ALSO at 38F and 11.5 PSI.

3. Spunding valve set to....11.5 PSI.

3. Increase regulator to tank *only* to at least 13.5 PSI (more is fine but you need to watch it)

4. As soon as you're at 13.5 PSI, start your transfer right away.

5. Increase regulator to tank as needed (I'd start at 18 PSI and go from there) to maintain 13-14 PSI in the tank itself.

6. Once transfer is done, cut beer flow to keg, and then cut gas to fermenter.

Easy.

 

[USMChueston0311]

Are we all imagining you had the fermenter at 15 or was that edited out? Because now I don't see you saying it other than now. If your tank can handle 15 PSI (I assume that's a PRV mechanism and it can physically hold more), you can set the tank pressure to 15 and force higher pressure gas in.

Get the fermenter, kegs, and transfer lines at your pressure at that temp, with the spunding valve if that pressure is greater than 13 PSI, then go colder so the whole system is at temp and stable and your beer is at desired carb at less than 13 PSI. Increase tank pressure *only* to 2 PSI higher than that (max 15). Once it's at the new pressure, *immediately* start transfer (you just wanna push the beer, not absorb any of the gas). You'll see the tank pressure drop. Add pressure to the tank *above* whatever PSI to matain the transfer pressure in the tank. I'd start with a 5 PSI increase on your regulator and go from there.

So a step by step example, for 2.5 volumes at 38F.

1. Tank set to 11.5 PSI and 38F, and allowed sufficient time to reach equilibrium (or if you've got a stone or something, quick carbed appropriately).

2. Sani and CO2 purge all your stuff. Get lines and keg ALSO at 38F and 11.5 PSI.

3. Spunding valve set to....11.5 PSI.

3. Increase regulator to tank *only* to at least 13.5 PSI (more is fine but you need to watch it)

4. As soon as you're at 13.5 PSI, start your transfer right away.

5. Increase regulator to tank as needed (I'd start at 18 PSI and go from there) to maintain 13-14 PSI in the tank itself.

6. Once transfer is done, cut beer flow to keg, and then cut gas to fermenter.

Easy.

Thank you for the breakdown. Will give it a shot, and post back results!

Im a visual learner, reading or trying to understand it by listening is a little more difficult to me. Sounds like a plan.

 

[Bobby_M]

If I carbed in the Unitank to 12 psi, I set the spunding to 12psi on the gas output of the receiving keg and then push about 20 psi on the unitank. The excess pressure is to move the beer at a good pace but anything over the spund pressure will get it done with no foaming or carbonation loss.

 

[Vale71]

Ideally, to prevent foaming the receiving tank should be set at a pressure that is slightly higher than the beer's current equilibrium pressure, so the fermenter should be set at an even higher pressure without exceeding its limits.
Here are some numbers from my setup just as an example (warning, metric system in force ):

Equilibrium pressure at 1°C: 0.7 bar
Fermenter pressure: 1.0 bar
Spunding valve set at: 0.8 bar

And then of course as with all trasfers it helps if the keg is cooled prior to transfer and the lines should be kept as sort and as straight as possible.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The easiest way, which also saves CO2 from your cylinder, is a closed transfer. Set the fermenting vessel higher than the receiving keg. Pressurise the receiving keg to the same (or similar) pressure as the fermenting vessel. Connect the 'gas in' of both vessels (you'll need a length of line with a gas disconnect on both ends). Connect the 'liquid out' of both vessels (use a length of line with a liquid disconnect on both ends). Take the gas disconnect off the receiving keg, give a short pull on the PRV to vent some gas. This makes the pressure in the receiving keg slightly lower than the fermenting vessel so beer will start flowing between the two. Re-connect the gas disconnect to the receiving keg. Both vessels will now be at equal pressure, but beer will continue to flow through siphoning (as the receiving keg is lower - the top of the receiving keg must be lower than the bottom of the fermenting vessel). It isn't fast - expect about 20 minutes for a 5 gallon transfer - but it is easy, doesn't waste CO2, and keeps the foam down.

 

[Vale71]

The easiest way, which also saves CO2 from your cylinder, is a closed transfer. Set the fermenting vessel higher than the receiving keg.

Unfortunately raising a >10 gal fermenter higher than the receiving keg when the fermenter is full is everything but easy and kind of defeats the purpose of having a fermenter you could just roll around your basement without having to do any lifting at any time...

 

[USMChueston0311]

Unfortunately raising a >10 gal fermenter higher than the receiving keg when the fermenter is full is everything but easy and kind of defeats the purpose of having a fermenter you could just roll around your basement without having to do any lifting at any time...

I agree. I can't life a full CF15 any higher.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Unfortunately raising a >10 gal fermenter higher than the receiving keg when the fermenter is full is everything but easy and kind of defeats the purpose of having a fermenter you could just roll around your basement without having to do any lifting at any time...

That's where a sanitary diaphragm pump comes in . Also can solve the "slow" problem from above.

Balance line transfers are super super easy. And (anecdotally based in my experience) have the least loss of aromatics.

 

[Blackwagon]

I'm approaching my first conical carb then pressure transfer so I'm planning out what I actually need to make this work. Should I stick with 3/16" ID or does the ID matter for a transfer?