Carbon monoxide hazards are real

[Broothru]

I realize this is a late response, but if it was me, I'd put it near wherever you are most likely to be in the garage. At about eye level. Also, I personally wouldn't burn propane in a closed space like a garage with the door closed. CO results from incomplete combustion which happens when you burn something without adequate oxygen present... Like with poor airflow when your garage door is closed.

Basically any combustion reaction (anything that is burning) can result in incomplete combustion (yellow flickering flame, produce CO+soot+other stuff) in combination with complete combustion (blue flame, produce exclusively CO2+H2O). I would guess that most propane burners produce all of the above in varying quantities and at different times. I'm afraid if you put your detector too close to the burner it might sound it's alarm for normal/acceptable levels of the various combustion reaction products.

TLDR Don't brew in closed spaces. Put your detector by your head.

Just to add on: CO has a much greater affinity to hemoglobin than does oxygen. Hemoglobin is what carries oxygen to every cell in your body. CO is very toxic to air breathing organisms (like you and me). It is also odorless and tasteless.

So, if your lungs are unknowingly filling with a poison that displaces the one gas necessary for your continued existence, and your sensory receptors are not warning you of that condition, then you may soon be known to others as "the former homebrewer known as....."

Y'all be careful out there.

Brooo Brother

 

[kh54s10]

TLDR Don't brew in closed spaces. Put your detector by your head.

First part is dead on, second is questionable. CO is heaver than oxygen so it will build from the bottom up. It has been a long time since I used a detector, but I believe that I remember the directions with mine saying to install 3 feet above the floor.

I think lower would give you warning earlier than at head level. You might be getting lung fulls if you sit down for instance.

 

[Broothru]

First part is dead on, second is questionable. CO is heaver than oxygen so it will build from the bottom up. It has been a long time since I used a detector, but I believe that I remember the directions with mine saying to install 3 feet above the floor.

I think lower would give you warning earlier than at head level. You might be getting lung fulls if you sit down for instance.

While true that CO would initially stratify lower that ambient air (O2 + N) I believe it would diffuse fairly quickly through the atmospheric column in a confined space. There it could bind to blood in the aveola of your lungs and poison as well as suffocate you.

The good news is that it would probably be a relaxed and relatively painless way do depart this mortal coil.

Brooo Brother

 

[kh54s10]

While true that CO would initially stratify lower that ambient air (O2 + N) I believe it would diffuse fairly quickly through the atmospheric column in a confined space. There it could bind to blood in the aveola of your lungs and poison as well as suffocate you.

The good news is that it would probably be a relaxed and relatively painless way do depart this mortal coil.

Brooo Brother

Yes it will diffuse fairly quickly, but being stratified in the beginning (to me) means that lower placement will give you warning that you might not get at head level.

I don't want to test whether it would be a relaxed and relatively painless way to DIE...

 

[Gozie Boy]

Yes it will diffuse fairly quickly, but being stratified in the beginning (to me) means that lower placement will give you warning that you might not get at head level.

I don't want to test whether it would be a relaxed and relatively painless way to DIE...

Agree, lower is better.

 

[Tyler B]

First part is dead on, second is questionable. CO is heaver than oxygen so it will build from the bottom up. It has been a long time since I used a detector, but I believe that I remember the directions with mine saying to install 3 feet above the floor.

I think lower would give you warning earlier than at head level. You might be getting lung fulls if you sit down for instance.

CO quickly diffuses into the air in a room.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21536403/

I'd still probably put it by my head. That's where I'm breathing air from. Definitely not in dead spaces, by windows/doors, on the ceiling, the floor,or across the room.

 

[SanPancho]

Co alarms can be installed anywhere. Theres no spec on placement, unlike co2 or smoke alarms.
In this case, id try and figure the area in the garage with the least amount of movement, i.e. away from drafts or ventilation so as to monitor an area where you would actually notice the concentration of co.

 

[Birrofilo]

For what I know, the most poisonous place of your house is the kitchen. Even with a perfectly regulated methane burning stove, the CO2 and other combustion gases that you breathe are not good for you, even if they seem "odourless". Even if you have an electric stove, the vapour of oils when you fry and cook are not good for you.

Ventilation is necessary whenever you cook. Cooking anything in a basement without ventilation, or in a kitchen with windows closed and no forced ventilation, is not healthy. Even in cold months, it is good to leave the window a bit open and the fume extractor on.

All that said, using a "turkey frier", or any flame without ventilation is not a good idea, not just for the CO or the CO2, but because combustion is never perfect and you are always bound to breath some combustion pollutant, not just CO2 and water.

When I use my gas oven to sanitize bottles, I always feel and recognise the combustion gases (the stove is new) and I let the window a bit open. Some people detect the "smokes" less than other, but they breathe them just like anybody else.

I learn from this thread that there is people using "turkey fryers" indoors or in a basement. So far I gave for granted that this is considered an option available only to people having a patio or working in the garage (with the entrance open) or in a shed with good ventilation.

 

[ace0005]

Just thought I'd weigh in as well..... CO poisoning is no joke!! I almost killed 6 people because I didn't pay enough attention to this subject (7 including myself). I was dumb enough to brew with propane in my basement! I took measures to ventilate the brew space, but it wasn't enough. The incident shook me so much that I stopped brewing until I was able to convert to an electric system (see pic to left), which took about 3 years. PLEASE be careful when using propane burners, and never use one in an enclosed space no matter how good your ventilation may be!!

 

[RolandD]

This needs to be said again, if you have propane or natural gas piped into you home, YOU, 100%, NEED TO HAVE CO ALARMS IN YOUR HOME.

Gas stoves, furnaces, hot water heaters, clothes dryers, and vent-less gas heaters can all leak CO into your home. Stoves must have a hood that is vented to the outside. Dryers must be vented outside, not into the crawlspace. Even when properly operating these allow acceptable amounts CO into the home. When one or more begin to malfunction levels climb rapidly.

 

[Turfgrass]

I brew in the basement and I learned about CO quickly (first brew) when I started to feel a headache come on. Realizing afterwards that my vent fan might have been pulling in CO and whatever else when the furnace is on. Now I always kill power to the furnace on brew days and I all is good, but it defininately scared me.

 

[rocco1]

Last week, my buddy and I experienced a pretty severe episode of CO poisoning while brewing in the garage. I became very light-headed, and he nearly lost conciseness.

Yesterday we brought along an OSHA-type CO monitoring device, and were able to determine the source was the hot liquor tank burner. Combination of dirty/corroded burner and burner placed too close to the bottom of the HLT nearly "snuffing" the burner flame were causing incomplete propane combustion and massive amounts of CO.

Lucky that we were familiar with the signs and symptoms of CO exposure, and could measure levels accurately to pinpoint a source. Levels returned to normal following a burner cleaning and burner repositioning.

Keep those burners clean and watch out for incomplete combustion. Pay attention to proper ventilation. We're going to have a full-time monitor in our garage for CO from here on out.

Very important point, I have been brewing in the garage with LP since 2012. I have a detector as well as a fire extinguisher within reach. I always vent with a window and prop the garage door open a couple of inches with a block during the the cold months. Stay safe!

 

[Garfield43]

If you bought some cheap no name CO detectors from Amazon they may have been recalled.
I noticed a refund post to my Amazon account. I looked in to it and my CO detectors had been recalled.

I can't find any info on the CPSC page about the recall. If you bought them from Amazon they should have refunded the purchase price to you. The problem is if you received one as a gift. You wont get the notification that way.

All I can find is a tiny crappy pic.
If you have a detector that looks like this, consider getting a new one.
They only last for a few years anyway.

 

[matt_m]

7 years. I believe any made in the last 12 years will start chirping at that point to let you know they are done.

Edit: that might vary. I see Kidde says 10.

 

[PCABrewing]

I noticed several posts here that stated CO is heavier than air.

I was pretty sure that is incorrect so I researched it.
Air is typically 28.8 whereas CO is 28.0 mol, slightly lighter than air.

It also mixes readily with air and is therefore easily distributed by air movement.
CO2 is heavier than air CO is not. CO2 is a big risk when going into manholes because the first symptom may be simply passing out and thereby becoming trapped in the CO2.

Side note: Propane is heavier than air and will definitely "pool" in low spots, like a basement.
Serious issue on boats with Propane cooking or heating equipment. We use gas detectors to protect against blowing the boat to pieces, no joke.
Natural gas mixes and is not heavier than air. CNG is the preferred gas for marine cooking but is not as easily refilled.

So using a propane heater/burner indoors is a double-whammy risk.

 

[maximillian.george]

Is this warning applicable for electric brewers also? What releases CO?

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Is this warning applicable for electric brewers also? What releases CO?

Only for gas / propane

CO is produced when natural gas or propane doesn't fully combust

Absolutely no concerns with electric brewing

 

[IslandLizard]

Is this warning applicable for electric brewers also? What releases CO?

CO = Carbon Monoxide
Deadly, even in small amounts.

CO2 = Carbon Dioxide
Dangerous (suffocation) when present in larger amounts.

 

[beren]

Interesting fact: some researchers suspect "ghost sightings" were due to CO poisoning.

 

[inkbird]

This is something that should attract everyone's attention. Thank you for sharing, which makes us realize that carbon monoxide poisoning should be prevented in advance.
We will start some tests and gifts on air detectors from time to time, including carbon monoxide detectors. If you need them, please contact me.
It is important to monitor the air around you and keep yourself in a safe and healthy environment.
I wish you all a happy and healthy life!

 

[bkboiler]

related story...

the family and I went up to the mountains a few years ago and we were in a cozy cabin and it was snowing outside...

At 2am the CO alarm goes off.

"EVACUATE! EVACUATE! Carbon Monoxide, Evacuate! 75ppm" it literally was blaring those words at probably 100dB. Like a fire alarm volume.

We were pretty terrified, so we opened all the windows in the middle of the night and called the fire department (and the Airbnb host while we were waiting).

They came out and tested the stove, furnace, etc with their meter. All was just fine ...

Low and behold I had not cracked a window while the fire was going in the fireplace (log fire)...wow, I felt pretty stupid, but glad that they had the CO alarms. Now I know... (I had opened and preheated the flue but not cracked a window).

Kids were pretty rattled, but it is a funny memory now when we remember the robotic voice of the female CO alarm

 

[MaxStout]

Or forgetting to open the chimney damper of a fireplace or wood stove.

But that mistake usually alerts you quickly by the smoke bellowing into the house.

Did that once, in a rental cabin.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Or forgetting to open the chimney damper of a fireplace or wood stove.

But that mistake usually alerts you quickly by the smoke bellowing into the house.

Did that once, in a rental cabin.

Wish I could say I never did that....