Caramelization of honey and fermentability

[bernardsmith]

I am planning on making a bochet - which involves the caramelization of honey. I understand that different sugars caramelize at different temperatures: sucrose, I think caramelizes at 230 F while fructose and glucose caramelize at 320 F. My question: If I cook honey at either temperature does the caramelization in fact make any of the caramelized sugars non fermentable? Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

When sugars caramelize they form polymers. As it is mono and di sachharides that ferment it isn't likely that caramels would.

Besides, if you heat honey you drive off all the lovely aromatics. That's why mead makers don't do it.

 

[armchaircommando]

I've made a couple of bochets, and it's my understanding that while some of the sugars caramelize into unfermentables, it happens slowly. I've never had a problem with attenuation in my bochets. Also, I think the boil is usually done based on time, rather than temperature. You boil the honey in a large pot for at least 30 minutes, and you put little drops of honey on a white plate to gauge the color change. When it gets to the darkness you want, you slowly and carefully add hot water to the honey to more or less stop the darkening.

 

[bernardsmith]

@ armchaircommando: Right... but different sugars caramelize at different temperatures. Are you suggesting that simply applying low heat to fructose or glucose will caramelize the sugar if that heat is applied for long enough? I ask because when you say "boil" I assume you mean on top of the stove but unless you are monitoring the temperature my guess is that you may be cooking your honey way , way above the boiling point of water and the bottom of your pot may be far higher than the temperature I set my oven at.

In any event, I heated two crocks with the same wild flower honey (2.5 lbs) in my oven at 320F - one for 2 hours and the second one for 2.5 hours and they are both now bubbling away (at about 60F) after I added 71B (and some nutrient). Both gallon carboys seem to show evidence of precipitated proteins. My plan is to add another 1lb of honey to each (the starting gravity was around 1.070 after I added enough water to fill 1 gallon carboys)

@ajdelange - I totally agree - heating honey destroys volatile aromatics and flavor molecules but a bochet is not about "heating" honey. I always avoid heat. I make wines and meads - I don't brew 'em. But a bochet is about caramelizing honey and caramelization creates all kinds of incredible flavors (marshmallow, butter, butterscotch) and aromatics as the sugars break down and form smaller chains of molecules and (I think) even simpler sugars.

 

[ajdelange]

In honey the main sugar (sucrose) is already broken down (inverted) to glucose and fructose. These polymerize to form caramels (larger molecules). See the Wikipedia articles on honey and caramelization for more details.

 

[bernardsmith]

In honey the main sugar (sucrose) is already broken down (inverted) to glucose and fructose. These polymerize to form caramels (larger molecules). See the Wikipedia articles on honey and caramelization for more details.

Sorry, I may be misunderstanding you but Wikipedia suggests that sucrose is only 1% of honey, so not ever the main sugar in honey. The dominant sugars are glucose and fructose...

"One 1980 study found that mixed floral honey from several United States regions typically contains:[65]

Fructose: 38.2%
Glucose: 31.3%
Maltose: 7.1%
Sucrose: 1.3%
Water: 17.2%
Higher sugars: 1.5%
Ash: 0.2%
Other/undetermined: 3.2%"

 

[ajdelange]

You are and you aren't. Flowers produce mostly sucrose and that's what get carried back to the hive. But the bee's saliva is acidic and contains lots of enzymes. These invert the sucrose into its component fructose and glucose. Thus the main sugar of honey (or perhaps I should have said 'nectar') is converted to glucose and fructose in the bee and the bee hive.

 

[armchaircommando]

@ armchaircommando: Right... but different sugars caramelize at different temperatures. Are you suggesting that simply applying low heat to fructose or glucose will caramelize the sugar if that heat is applied for long enough? I ask because when you say "boil" I assume you mean on top of the stove but unless you are monitoring the temperature my guess is that you may be cooking your honey way , way above the boiling point of water and the bottom of your pot may be far higher than the temperature I set my oven at.

I'm just passing along the method that seemed to work for me. Boiling the honey on the stove seems to be a fairly controllable way of caramelizing honey. Hot spots might be a problem in some cases, but once the honey is hot it is pretty fluid, so I don't think it would burn for quite a while. It didn't burn in my case at least; but I was using a glass cooktop, so maybe that makes a difference.

 

[madscientist451]

Interesting post, I've heard of a bochet, but never actually knew what it was.
So I went to Google and searched for it. Except I mis-spelled it and typed in BOUCHET:

http://ilarge.lisimg.com/image/5452795/770full-barbara-bouchet.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ca/62/1f/ca621f4c7c1193478a1bf417b73202cb.jpg

I've never heard of Barbara Bouchet either, so I guess I learned a few new things today.
That's why I love the internet.

So after looking at some great photography, I went back to Google and corrected my spelling.
I found a recipe/description from 1393 that tells how to get the correct caramelization.
I'm going to try this but will add more water to make a beer level ABV mead.
I'll also split the batch and use spices in one and one without.

 

[bernardsmith]

IMO, that "1393" recipe needs to be viewed through 21st Century eyes. The appearance of "black smoke" suggests that the mead maker was planning on all but carbonizing (AKA burning) the honey. The more carbonized the honey the more bitter it will be - bitter in an unpleasant way. What you want is to caramelize the sugars, not burn them and that means you do not need to wait for signs of burning before you remove the honey from the heat. One way to determine how much caramelization you want/have is to very carefully use a a chopstick or something similar to collect a drop every 15 minutes or so and allow the drop to fall on a white dish or plate. You can then remove the honey from the heat when the drop, hardening like toffee on the plate, reaches the color you are seeking. The longer it cooks the darker the color. But there is no requirement that a bochet needs to have all the sugar in the honey caramelized. You, not the stove oven, crockpot or fire pit, are in control.