Can't trust my yeast.

[IslandLizard]

I don't really know. It's set in the fridge for a month. It was pretty compact, I would say. Maybe that will give you some idea of how much it might be.
Yes. Ale.

As long as that sediment layer (yeast solids) in that pint jar was around 3/4"-1" you're in good shape.
You do need a 2 liter to starter to bring it up to around 392 billion cells (quadrupled).

Here are my calcs:
Having about 3/4" - 1" of thick sedimented slurry in a pint Mason jar translates into around 75-100 ml of (prime, top cropped) yeast slurry.

Generally, 40-60% yeast solids will correlate to 1.2 billion cells per ml.*
So you've got 90-120 billion cells in there. Likely a bit better, due to it being top cropped (far less trub %).

* Source: Professional | Yeast Harvesting & Repitching - Wyeast Lab

 

[slayer021175666]

As long as that sediment layer (yeast solids) in that pint jar was around 3/4"-1" you're in good shape.
You do need to starter to bring it to around 392 billion cells (quadrupel).

Here are my calcs:
Having about 3/4" - 1" of thick sedimented slurry in a pint Mason jar translates into around 75-100 ml of (prime, top cropped) yeast slurry.

Generally, 40-60% yeast solids will correlate to 1.2 billion cells per ml.*
So you've got 90-120 billion cells in there. Likely a bit better, due to it being top cropped (far less trub %).

* Source: Professional | Yeast Harvesting & Repitching - Wyeast Lab

I already started a 2 l starter. I hope you're not telling me that I needed to make a 1 l, now?

 

[IslandLizard]

I already started a 2 l starter. I hope you're not telling me that I needed to make a 1 l, now?

Sorry, I forgot to mention the starter size. I edited, it's a 2 liter starter, indeed.
That should get you in the 392 billion cell ballpark.

 

[passedpawn]

I already started a 2 l starter. I hope you're not telling me that I needed to make a 1 l, now?

If you're pitching from a mason jar of saved yeast trub, and it's not too old, I would not bother with a starter. Just dump it into the fermentor.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Not trub, top cropped yeast. I wouldn't think twice about pitching a month old 1" of top cropped yeast into a normal gravity 5G. For 10G, a quick liter SNS would probably be effective. I regularly pitch 500ml SNS starters into 4G up to and including 1.100 with very good results. Note, I don't count or estimate cells. 2L will be plenty and it's near impossible to overpitch. An underpitch by half would only add ~90m to lag time.

TL/DR Pitch healthy active yeast. Relax, have a beer, etc.

 

[slayer021175666]

Starter has been sitting for 16 and 1/2 hours. No perceivable activity yet. Haven't tasted it but, I don't see any foam and all the yeast is just sitting on the bottom of the wort.

 

[balrog]

shaking and or stirring, right?

 

[slayer021175666]

SNS. Just stirring it up by hand every now and again when I pass by it.

 

[balrog]

Good.
My older reserved yeast pint jars take longer to get started in a starter than younger ones, but the resultant starter starts startlingly normally when used in the brew.

 

[slayer021175666]

Good.
My older reserved yeast pint jars take longer to get started in a starter than younger ones, but the resultant starter starts startlingly normally when used in the brew.

Right. I'm not real worried at this point. I would just like to brew and until I know for sure that the yeast made a good starter beer, I can't.
I was just kind of letting everybody know what's going on.

 

[DBhomebrew]

SNS. Just stirring it up by hand every now and again when I pass by it.

To start, did you shake the bejeebers out it until you had a jar of foam?

 

[slayer021175666]

To start, did you shake the bejeebers out it until you had a jar of foam?

Yeah, I shook it for about 45 seconds. Right after I put the yeast in it.

 

[w8av]

You should never store yeast in RO water. It will weaken the yeast cell walls and possibly kill a lot of cells. It should be stored in the beer it was harvested from as it is used to that environment. When you are ready to re-pitch it, add some of the beer you are brewing and either put it on a stir plate to rouse the yeast or shake it up in the jar (commonly known as SNS - Shaken Not Stirred).
You can also use some of it and make a new starter the day before brewing to insure that the yeast is till viable.

 

[slayer021175666]

You should never store yeast in RO water. It will weaken the yeast cell walls and possibly kill a lot of cells. It should be stored in the beer it was harvested from as it is used to that environment. When you are ready to re-pitch it, add some of the beer you are brewing and either put it on a stir plate to rouse the yeast or shake it up in the jar (commonly known as SNS - Shaken Not Stirred).
You can also use some of it and make a new starter the day before brewing to insure that the yeast is till viable.

There are lots and lots of arguments for and against storing in water or storing in beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

SNS. Just stirring it up by hand every now and again when I pass by it.

Sorry, that's NOT S-n-S, it's intermittent stirring/swirling. It's a lesser productive starter method, with a high possibility of blow offs when it finally takes off, while you're not looking, such as overnight...

How about using that gallon jug, it would be about half full? Shake it really well, as often as you can, producing lots of foam, after letting air in before shaking?
Just make sure to release the cap after the shaking, to prevent :<boom>: due to pressure build-up.

 

[slayer021175666]

Sorry, that's NOT S-n-S, it's intermittent stirring/swirling. It's a lesser productive starter method, with a high possibility of blow offs when it finally takes off, while you're not looking, such as overnight...

How about using that gallon jug, it would be about half full? Shake it really well, as often as you can, producing lots of foam, after letting air in before shaking?
Just make sure to release the cap after the shaking, to prevent :<boom>: due to pressure build-up.

I thought sns meant shaken, not stirred. Anyway, I'm not using a stir bar and every now and again when I pass it in the hall, I pick up the jug that you mentioned and turn the cap down on it and shake the hell out of it and then loosen the cap a little bit so that it can get air and leave it sitting there. I think, I'm doing exactly what you describe. No?

 

[IslandLizard]

I thought sns meant shaken, not stirred. Anyway, I'm not using a stir bar and every now and again when I pass it in the hall, I pick up the jug that you mentioned and turn the cap down on it and shake the hell out of it and then loosen the cap a little bit so that it can get air and leave it sitting there. I think, I'm doing exactly what you describe. No?

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

 

[slayer021175666]

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

To your credit though, I think I did use the word stirred. I could have said agitate or any other word you can think of so, I can see why you thought that. It's important to use the correct nomenclature in brewing and especially when you're writing stuff in a forum and people can't hear your inflection/tone/etc..

 

[slayer021175666]

Yup, that's the idea behind S-n-S, Shaken-not-Stirred.
All good!

Island lizard, it finally started going at about 10:00 last night and it's going really strong right now. Do you think, I should smell it and taste it right now and go ahead and Brew if I think it's alright or should I wait for it for ferment out and then try it?

 

[Deadalus]

I've had similar foaming happening, often with Belgian yeasts, but others have too, at times.
I reckon it's still been fermenting a little in cold storage.

They typically show a few signs up front. One being a (slightly) bulging, or hard-to-the-touch (non-depressible) lid. This is due to internal pressure buildup, which you'll hear when releasing the lid/cap. That's your usual tell tale of what's coming next, as you just experienced!

Once the lid is released the pressure drops and little bubble spikes (fountains) start rising up from the bottom. It may develop into heavier foaming, even raising the whole yeast cake, making it ooze over the top. Just wipe it off and proceed as usually. As long as nothing has gone into your yeast, and you've been using good sanitation practices, as usual.

...

I know the thread is sort of past this but just wanted to add an agreeing post. I overbuild my starters and sometimes I would put the banked bottles into storage right after splitting the starter either when pitching at high krausen or after decanting. This would happen and like Balrog I wouldn't want to worry about if it was infected or not so I would dump it on the next starter build when I observed some of these mentioned points. After it happened a few times, I figured out what it likely was--continued fermentation. I agree it's probably fine not to worry about it but instead I just make sure to split the starter and let the portion for banking continue until it is done and the yeast settle out. I would think you would be less inclined to see it from harvesting off a finished batch but perhaps the greater amount of yeast is sufficient to have it continue a little. I also noticed that it tended to happen when I let the yeast get a warmer. My keezer lid has a tight opening so I have to store banked yeast in my ferm fridges and these can get warmer when doing a D-rest or if the power is out and the controller flakes out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Island lizard, it finally started going at about 10:00 last night and it's going really strong right now. Do you think, I should smell it and taste it right now and go ahead and Brew if I think it's alright or should I wait for it for ferment out and then try it?

This S-n-S starter process has been going for 36-some hours, now, yes?

Have you been shaking it every few (2-3) hours? Or were there much longer times in between shakes?

Reason is, the yeast needs oxygen (from fresh air that's being let in) to grow (multiply). What you see now is probably mostly fermentation and she's going to town. So keep shaking until ready to pitch.

I guess you could brew, then pitch the whole actively fermenting starter. When would you pitch that, 8-12 hours from now?

The bigger question is always: Are there going to be enough (active) cells for your 10 gallon 1.056 batch?
You'd be the judge...

 

[slayer021175666]

This S-n-S starter process has been going for 36-some hours, now, yes?

Have you been shaking it every few (2-3) hours? Or were there much longer times in between shakes?

Reason is, the yeast needs oxygen (from fresh air that's being let in) to grow (multiply). What you see now is probably mostly fermentation and she's going to town. So keep shaking until ready to pitch.

I guess you could brew, then pitch the whole actively fermenting starter. When would you pitch that, 8-12 hours from now?

The bigger question is always: Are there going to be enough (active) cells for your 10 gallon 1.056 batch?
You'd be the judge...

I probably shook it more often than every 2 to 3 hours when I was awake. While I slept for 7 hours or so, it didn't get shaken of course.
It's been about 40 hours total at this point.
It takes me anywhere from 5:00 to 7 hours to brew so I would say 5 to 7 hours before I pitch.
I don't have a problem with the cell count. I was just pitching the jar, right out of the refrigerator, into the 10 gallons before and it did have a lag time but, it worked.

 

[DBhomebrew]

SNS starters need to be pitched whole at high krausen. Otherwise, you're missing some of the purported advantages.

 

[slayer021175666]

F#@kin' Hell! I've got 10 gallons of wort sitting here but, I tasted that starter and it tastes sour. At least a little bit sour anyway. Taste just like a less potent version of the exact flavor that I do not want in my hefeweizen! I've had plenty of beer sour on me and I can't put that yeast starter in my beer in good faith. I drained through my kegerator tap until it blew and rinsed out one of my refrigerated kegs with RO water that had some yeast in the bottom of it and I'm letting it warm up on the counter right now. It's probably not near enough cells but, at least it doesn't taste sour. I can't just sit here and let the wort spoil. But, that sour taste bugs me. It also bugs me how long it took the starter to take off. I have another keg sitting here that I could pour off into bottles and do the same thing with it to get the yeast out of the bottom of it. Although, it's been very cold and sitting in the fridge, at least that would be more cells and, At least I know that beer tastes fine and there's nothing wrong with the yeast in the bottom of those kegs. I can't say for SURE that there's anything wrong with the yeast in the starter but, it has that exact taste that I hate. It's only a small amount of that taste but, it is there. I can't bring myself to pour it in and take my chances. I think I'd rather wait on the lag time of the keg yeast.
Thoughts?

 

[IslandLizard]

Crap! Really sad to hear that. I had already forgotten about the sour taste you had mentioned...

You can freeze your wort, to prevent spoilage for a few weeks, likely longer, until you get enough yeast together. But be careful IRT the containers used. Using smaller containers (1/2 - 1 gallon) is better, and don't overfill, it will expand by 10% or more. Do not use kegs or glass for that!

For example, I freeze starter wort (@1.093) in 44 oz cottage cheese containers, and soup stock in 1 - 1.25 gallon plastic containers, similar to those used for cheap ice cream, and fill to only 80% of their volume.

Chilling as close to freezing as you can (in brew buckets) will keep it fine for a few days to week, but err toward the shorter time limits.
When in doubt, reboil (or heat till 150-160F and keep there for 20-30 minutes) then rechill before pitching yeast.

Yeast on the bottom of kegs is usually not the best to use for fermentations. They're the slower flocculators, not the hard workers doing the bulk of conversion, and crash out first.

 

[passedpawn]

F#@kin' Hell! I've got 10 gallons of wort sitting here but, I tasted that starter and it tastes sour. At least a little bit sour anyway. Taste just like a less potent version of the exact flavor that I do not want in my hefeweizen! I've had plenty of beer sour on me and I can't put that yeast starter in my beer in good faith. I drained through my kegerator tap until it blew and rinsed out one of my refrigerated kegs with RO water that had some yeast in the bottom of it and I'm letting it warm up on the counter right now. It's probably not near enough cells but, at least it doesn't taste sour. I can't just sit here and let the wort spoil. But, that sour taste bugs me. It also bugs me how long it took the starter to take off. I have another keg sitting here that I could pour off into bottles and do the same thing with it to get the yeast out of the bottom of it. Although, it's been very cold and sitting in the fridge, at least that would be more cells and, At least I know that beer tastes fine and there's nothing wrong with the yeast in the bottom of those kegs. I can't say for SURE that there's anything wrong with the yeast in the starter but, it has that exact taste that I hate. It's only a small amount of that taste but, it is there. I can't bring myself to pour it in and take my chances. I think I'd rather wait on the lag time of the keg yeast.
Thoughts?

pitch that yeast. You cannot taste a yeast starter and like it.

 

[slayer021175666]

Crap! Really sad to hear that. I had already forgotten about the sour taste you had mentioned...

You can freeze your wort, to prevent spoilage for a few weeks, likely longer, until you get enough yeast together. But be careful IRT the containers used. Using smaller containers (1/2 - 1 gallon) is better, and don't overfill, it will expand by 10% or more. Do not use kegs or glass for that!

For example, I freeze starter wort (@1.093) in 44 oz cottage cheese containers, and soup stock in 1 - 1.25 gallon plastic containers, similar to those used for cheap ice cream, and fill to only 80% of their volume.

Chilling as close to freezing as you can (in brew buckets) will keep it fine for a few days to week, but err toward the shorter time limits.
When in doubt, reboil (or heat till 150-160F and keep there for 20-30 minutes) then rechill before pitching yeast.

Yeast on the bottom of kegs is usually not the best to use for fermentations. They're the slower flocculators, not the hard workers doing the bulk of conversion, and crash out first.

The slower flocculating yeast is what I like. I like a lot of suspended yeast in my beers. Anyway, I'm going to do what I figure is the only way out at this at this point. I have taken the yeast out of both kegs, set it on the counter to warm it up and I'm going to inoculate my wort with them. I've done it before and I must say, it has been a good experience in the past. When you have yeast sitting inside of a keg, every single time that you take a drink off of it, you are testing it whether you mean to or not. I know that yeast has no infection because I'm drinking one of the beers off of it right now. Also, there is no way for anything to get into your keg because there's a constant pressure of inert gas at 10 lb (in my case) being pushed into it. I guess it depends on what somebody wants in their beer. I like lots of suspended yeast in ANY beer that I Brew. And by that I do mean, any beer that I personally Brew. I don't Brew clear beers of any kind. If I want them, I go to the store and get my Heineken or St Pauli girl or pilsner urquell or Stella Artois or whatever. I like yeast in my stouts, I like it in my hefs and I like it in my ipas. I think from here on out, I might just use the yeast out of the bottom of my kegs for the rest of my brewing. I'm just so sick of having lactobacillus or whatever is souring my beers. I don't know if it's the area that I live in or what but I don't know how anybody could be more sanitation conscious than I am especially after all of these soured beers in the last year or so. If inoculating these two 5-gallon fermenters with it turns out to be good, it's the way I'm going to do it for the rest of my life. Unless of course, something else goes bad. At least then, I'll know that it's in my fermenter or spigot or something like that. Not, in the yeast itself.

 

[slayer021175666]

pitch that yeast. You cannot taste a yeast starter and like it.

I hear what you're saying but, once I tasted that sour taste, no way in hell am I going to pitch it. I think that it will turn those beers into the same sour tasting ****.

 

[passedpawn]

I hear what you're saying but, once I tasted that sour taste, no way in hell am I going to pitch it. I think that it will turn those beers into the same sour tasting ****.

you be you. Fermentation is not lovely, it's puberty of our favorite drink. it goes through phases.

 

[slayer021175666]

you be you. Fermentation is not lovely, it's puberty of our favorite drink. it goes through phases.

I thought about maybe inoculating one with the starter and inoculating the other with the yeast out of the kegs. I would hate to find out that it ruined one of them but, at least I'd have the other to drink and I know if the starter was bad or not, for sure. I like to hear what you say and I'd like to not be worried about it but, when I taste that sour taste, it makes me think that the whole batch is going to go bad if I put it in there.