Can't seem to figure Brewing Cider out

[NZBrewGuy]

Hey guys,

Hoping to get some advice here, currently busy with my 5th Cider batch since I started Brewing(I only do cider as I prefer it).

I would like to say I have learned a bit from all the previous batches but I just can't seem to get it right.

I have always used a mangrove jacks kit (apple x2 pear x1 strawberry pear x2) Strawberry & Pear Cider

My first 2 batches I followed the instructions and bottled my cider after 2 weeks (Gravity was at the required reading) but both ended up smelling and tasting (sulpery?, best way to discribe is egglike?) , my next batches I started changing things up to see if I could get a better result. Batch 3 I bottled after 3 weeks (additional week after fermenting stopped- gravity was fixed for the week) and then left for 2 months before drinking but sadly the same. Last batch I bottled after 3 months again but left for 5 months before drinking and it tasted alot better, still tasked and smelled bad when I bottled it, downside is they were flat after the long time in the PET bottles.

This brings me to my current batch, it has been fermenting for just over 3 weeks, the gravity has been stable for the past week, it still smells (eggy - not vinegary) and I can taste the same as before . I have been sure to keep my temps at 24c throughout and I am certian in how I sanitised everything. I have stirred this once for around 5 min after watching a youtube video on getting some of the co2 out not sure if this was correct or not.

With the current state it is in I do not wish to bottle it without knowing how it will end up.

I am hoping to get some advice on where to go on this.

My plan is to move this(I know i shouldnt but need to get it to a fixed spot) and keep it in the fermenting bucket for atleast a couple of months. Hoping that the flavor and smell will get better as time pases.

Can anyone let me know if this is the right thinking on my side or if I am just wasting time/going down the right track?

Please feel free to ask away on anything I might have missed.

 

[JohnSand]

Welcome aboard!
I've only made cider once in recent years, and it went about as expected. I don't think that leaving it to ferment longer will hurt it.

 

[DBhomebrew]

The sulphur should dissipate over time. A few months or more. In bulk with an airlock might be faster than in bottle.

To prevent it from forming to begin with, consider looking into a nutrient protocol.

 

[redrocker652002]

I have never done it, but want to. I did a ton of looking around on Youtube, and if I remember correctly, most said it has to sit in whatever it's final container is for a longer period of time. I could be wrong though, as I have not looked in a while. I liked this vid and a few others they did. Simple yet complete in my mind.



I was poking around and found this article as well. Not sure if you heat up the juice or not. Also, I have read that there can be no additives, just juice and vitamin C.

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/blogs/bottled-knowledge/instructions-on-how-to-make-hard-cider
Good Luck, and Rock On!!!!!!!!!

 

[Maylar]

Sulphur/rotten eggs/rhino farts is due to stressed yeast. 24°C is at the high end of the yeast's range. At that temperature they need more nutrients (nitrogen) than the apples have. You can either supplement yeast nutrient at the start of fermenting, or (better still) ferment at a lower temperature. Holding 65°F will give you a much cleaner result, though it'll take longer.

 

[redrocker652002]

Sulphur/rotten eggs/rhino farts is due to stressed yeast. 24°C is at the high end of the yeast's range. At that temperature they need more nutrients (nitrogen) than the apples have. You can either supplement yeast nutrient at the start of fermenting, or (better still) ferment at a lower temperature. Holding 65°F will give you a much cleaner result, though it'll take longer.

Good call. That makes sense. I just learned something Rock On!!!!!!!!

 

[DaveC73]

Sulphur/rotten eggs/rhino farts is due to stressed yeast. 24°C is at the high end of the yeast's range. At that temperature they need more nutrients (nitrogen) than the apples have. You can either supplement yeast nutrient at the start of fermenting, or (better still) ferment at a lower temperature. Holding 65°F will give you a much cleaner result, though it'll take longer.

This for sure. Also, those kits come with Mangrove Jack's M02 cider yeast, which I use a lot. I've found that if you don't baby this yeast, it produces sulphur like, well, stink. I ferment around 64F and feed it at least 1 tsp per gallon of yeast nutrient. That usually, but not always, results in a clean smelling cider with this yeast.

 

[Chalkyt]

Following Maylar's comments about yeast stress and DaveC73's experience with M02, you might be interested in a discussion in Claude Jolicoeur's book about the need for yeast nutrients in relation to fermentation (it seems that apples are inherently low in nitrogen).

Both he and Andrew Lea (at Long Ashton) came up with yeast needing something like 25ppm of YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) for each 10 gravity points of successful fermentation, or 238ppm (say, 250ppm for easy maths) of DAP nutrient for fully fermenting a cider from SG 1.060.

This translates roughly into 0.25 grams of DAP per litre. Being "rough" again, this is at least 1/4 teaspoon per gallon which is what I use with success to get a primary fermentation done in about two weeks at 15C- 18C. When I started some years ago, the "shop" told me to put a teaspoon of DAP and a teaspoon of yeast (in that case EC1118) in 5 litres of juice, but I find that 1/4 teaspoon of DAP works O.K.

I had read somewhere than M02 comes with nutrient, but I just had a look at a package (and on their website) and there doesn't seem to be any mention of this.

I guess being summer in NZ (like here in Oz), you might have to go to some extra measures to keep the fermentation temperature a bit lower than 24C.

Hope this helps with your next batch.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I would be tempted to try another yeast.
All ale yeasts will do.
I've tried Voss, M47, M31, bry97 and MJ cider yeast as well.
I use store bought apple juice.
All ferment dry, so you may want to add some apple juice or sugar to your glass if you like your cider on the sweet side

 

[madscientist451]

Hey guys,



I have always used a mangrove jacks kit (apple x2 pear x1 strawberry pear x2) Strawberry & Pear Cider


I am hoping to get some advice on where to go on this.

MY 2 cents:
Quit using the cider kits.
I'm not saying they are bad, but they use a concentrated industrial processed juice and you can't really expect the best when using that as a main ingredient.
Apple harvest time should be coming soon in your location, can you get local juice from a farm?
Ask if they put any preservatives in the juice (which will not permit your yeast to work properly.)
If no juice is available, perhaps they have "seconds" or reject apples to sell? Look on you tube for info how to crush and press apples on the cheap.
Or just go to the local supermarket and use frozen apple juice concentrate. This will be similar to using the kits, but at least will be cheaper and maybe you can blend it with some juice from the store.
I've only had the Sulphur problem one time, and that was when I used Nottingham ale yeast. A wine yeast like 71-B works well, but my go-to yeast is cider house select, and you can re-use the yeast many times.
I usually don't use any yeast nutrient in cider, but with some yeast you have to.
I let my cider age at least 6 months before bottling or drinking. But you can probably drink it long before that.
Look for local homebrew clubs, someone there will be able to tell you where to get the best juice for your cider.

 

[zadamxtr]

I've had a few batches of really nice cider since I started a couple months ago. Never had any sulphur smell. I don't bother with kits, its cheaper and possibly almost just as easy to buy some pasteurised juice with no preservatives from the supermarket, pick up some cider or white wine/champagne yeast, and make it yourself. Make sure to always sanitize everything really well. Try and avoid letting the cider get too warm during fermentation, 18-22 degrees C is the best for most cider yeasts. If you don't have a way of cooling it, what I did was get a large tub and filled it with water, then kept the fermenter 90 percent submerged in the water. This doesnt really cool it but it stops the temperature from going up and down so much, so your highs wont be as high, and your lows wont be as low. Let it sit in the fermenter with the airlock for a few days after all bubbling stops. Then rack it (transfer carefully using a siphon, leaving behind the bottom 10% with all the sediment) into another fermenter/container (sanitized) and put an ait lock on again, leave it in there for another 2-4 weeks before botting and carbonating. Once bottled, let carbonate for 2-3 weeks. Then place in the fridge and let sit in the fridge for another week or so before drinking.

Do that and you should get a really nice cider with almost no yeast or sulphur smells.

 

[redrocker652002]

I've had a few batches of really nice cider since I started a couple months ago. Never had any sulphur smell. I don't bother with kits, its cheaper and possibly almost just as easy to buy some pasteurised juice with no preservatives from the supermarket, pick up some cider or white wine/champagne yeast, and make it yourself. Make sure to always sanitize everything really well. Try and avoid letting the cider get too warm during fermentation, 18-22 degrees C is the best for most cider yeasts. If you don't have a way of cooling it, what I did was get a large tub and filled it with water, then kept the fermenter 90 percent submerged in the water. This doesnt really cool it but it stops the temperature from going up and down so much, so your highs wont be as high, and your lows wont be as low. Let it sit in the fermenter with the airlock for a few days after all bubbling stops. Then rack it (transfer carefully using a siphon, leaving behind the bottom 10% with all the sediment) into another fermenter/container (sanitized) and put an ait lock on again, leave it in there for another 2-4 weeks before botting and carbonating. Once bottled, let carbonate for 2-3 weeks. Then place in the fridge and let sit in the fridge for another week or so before drinking.

Do that and you should get a really nice cider with almost no yeast or sulphur smells.

Did you boil or do anything with the cider? If it is pasteurised in the bottle I am guessing transfer into a sanitised fermenter is about all that is needed, right?

 

[epicarmyman101]

Did you boil or do anything with the cider? If it is pasteurised in the bottle I am guessing transfer into a sanitised fermenter is about all that is needed, right?

I use pasteurized juice straight from the jug. I currently have a batch going now with a tube of concentrate mixed in to bump up the gravity. I just sanitize the equipment. I don't generally panic about contamination, as I've never had a problem.

To address the kit issue, they are useful in that they get your feet wet in the hobby. However, these forums, and especially the pinned threads, are far more helpful and will save you money in the long run.

Don't beat yourself up. In my experience, good results depend a lot on the quality of the ingredients going in. Fermentation isn't a miracle fix for sub-par juice and poor yeast. Kits can only achieve so much.

 

[Rish]

keep my temps at 24c

This is the largest part of your problem. You should be at 18c (or less) to 20c to avoid the sulphur smell. Use a swamp cooler or a vat of water with frozen bottles of water to keep your temps down for the first week of fermentation. Give it a least a month in primary. No need to move to secondary unless you are adding fruit, spices, etc.

 

[redrocker652002]

I use pasteurized juice straight from the jug. I currently have a batch going now with a tube of concentrate mixed in to bump up the gravity. I just sanitize the equipment. I don't generally panic about contamination, as I've never had a problem.

To address the kit issue, they are useful in that they get your feet wet in the hobby. However, these forums, and especially the pinned threads, are far more helpful and will save you money in the long run.

Don't beat yourself up. In my experience, good results depend a lot on the quality of the ingredients going in. Fermentation isn't a miracle fix for sub-par juice and poor yeast. Kits can only achieve so much.

I am getting motivated to give it a try. Might have to give it a go next weekend. 5 gallons of apple juice from the store, a packet or two of yeast and my fermenter, sounds like it might be a plan. Rock On!!!!!!!

 

[dwhite60]

Down at the bottom of this link there's information on using copper to remove sulphur smell from wine. Should work for cider.

https://blog.homebrewing.org/sulfur-smell-in-fermenting-wine/

 

[NZBrewGuy]

Hey Guys,

Appologies for the delay in replying been a busy time but have taken the advise to heart.

Migrated my Cider to secondary to stand for a longer period. I have made some space in one of my spare fridges in the garage and keeping it in there for a few months. Opened it up today and the smell is already alot more bearable. Not sure if this is in my head but my cider seems to be getting darker is this normal or could I just be imagining it?

Next I have gotten a temp controller, heat pad and will be reusing the same fridge for my next batch soon-ish.

As for the comment regarding frozen fruit juice/concentrate cant seem th buy that from retail in NZ as far as I can tell. Apples go for $1 a kg so $3 a 3l juice is still better than what I can currently do from the vineyards.

 

[NZBrewGuy]

not sure if that is clear but its been darkening used to be more golden but quite a bit darker now. Not the end of the world but just wondering about it.

 

[kaziel]

Hello - no sure this will help in you problem but I've only used once Mangov's Jacks beer (lager) yeasts and this is only time I was having eggs in the smell of the beer. Decided to bottle it anyway and after 5 weeks no smell is present.
I was doing ciders few times in the past - using only apples or juice. I've always been doing starters - few times from wine yeast and than I was doing some sort of secondary and even 3rd rest of fermentation to have it more clear (if possible). Never had eggs smell maybe due to aerating it few time - this helps to remove that. All my bates were fermented <20C.
If I were you I would go with wine yeast or Voss Kveik as many of my friends have great success with cider and those.

 

[Maylar]

not sure if that is clear but its been darkening used to be more golden but quite a bit darker now. Not the end of the world but just wondering about it.

I would be very puzzled about that color.

 

[cmac62]

with the color my first reaction is oxidation, but that is really dark.

 

[NZBrewGuy]

with the color my first reaction is oxidation, but that is really dark.

With oxidation would it still be safe for consumption?

As stated it still tastes like cider, have no issues throwing it out if it is unsafe.

 

[Maylar]

With oxidation would it still be safe for consumption?

As stated it still tastes like cider, have no issues throwing it out if it is unsafe.

It's safe. You'll know if it's funky when you taste it. Never had a cider go bad, but oxidized wine is very noticeable.

 

[zadamxtr]

Did you boil or do anything with the cider? If it is pasteurised in the bottle I am guessing transfer into a sanitised fermenter is about all that is needed, right?

Nope, the juice came pasteurised already, so no need to boil it as it is already boiled and sealed in the bottle so no contaminants can get in. Thats why the juice stays good in the bottle for months without refridgeration despite not having any preservatives in it.

 

[kindrox]

I started making cider about six months ago. I've made apple, strawberry, peach, apricot, watermelon, lemon, raspberry, grape, banana, and coffee. I started with frozen juice concentrates (lemon, apple, grape) and have branched out into real fruit (strawberry, raspberry, banana, watermelon) or using frozen concentrate and fruit.

I have used two kits, the first one a Vintner's Best Peach Fruit Wine Base. I am happy with it, it tasted like peach when I moved it to secondary, and then tasted better when I sampled it after two months. I might possibly buy this brand again. My peach from Jumex juice hasn't been a home run yet (has an off putting smell but tastes ok. Currently waiting it out) and I am going to try making peach cider from fruit. If the Vintner's Best comes out better than my real fruit efforts I can see myself buying that kit again.

So when the local home brew shop had a raspberry-lime kit 50% off (I paid about $25) about a month ago I got it. I don't recall the brand but it came in a bag. The brew itself was dark in color. After primary it tasted nearly like nothing and then you add a little pouch of clear liquid which had all the flavor. Never will buy one of these again. Compared to the juice concentrates and real fruit results this kit cider is extremally low in quality and at 50% off still is as expensive as a similar volume of frozen concentrate cider for which I have had mostly great success.

I have brewed colder than you (the brew closet was 60F when I started back in February and as crept up to 68F here in June) but I watch Florida based City Steading on Youtube and it seems they brew much warmer than I with good results. I also use yeast nutrient.

All that said, I have a bunch of one gallon jugs and I have done test batches of apple, grape and banana with up to five different yeasts. I note the yeast(s) I like for each fruit and then I stick with those yeasts for those fruits from then on.

Apple Juice
Notthingham
Safcider TF6

Dark Grape Juice
Notthingham
MA33

Strawberry
Notthingham
K1-V1116

Banana
SN9
SafeAle 05
Notthingham
P C D Blanca

Raspberry
VR21


It looks like I haven't yet written down in my brew notes what I used for the watermelon but I didn't like the outcome of it. Maybe I did something wrong on that one because it has the fusel alcohol flavor.

But overall my outcomes have been amazing. My best drinking result to date is a strawberry apple my friends rated 8/10. I just purchased 100 pounds of strawberries and I have strawberry, strawberry lemonaid, and strawberry limeaid in primary and I am waiting for the bananas to ripen to get a strawberry banana brew going.

 

[kindrox]

I forgot to mention that I don't use camden tablets with real fruit (knock on wood). Batches with acidic results I have done nothing but freeze the fruit for a couple days. With bananas I have dipped the whole fruit in boiling water for 30 seconds. Recently, if I do more than freezing the fruit, I pasteurize at about 140-150F. Pectic and Amylase enzyme work best about 140F - 150F so now days my procedure is freeze then thaw then mash the fruit, then put it in a big pot and add my enzymes.

Then I put it on high heat while I stir. When the fruit reaches 150F I turn it off, put the lid on, and let it cool down all night. Then I put it in a mesh bag. Then again I haven't been doing any of this for more than six months so maybe a year from now I will regret not using camden tablets. But not so far.