Can't get real hop flavor

[jddevinn]

RO water for the wort.

What water profile are you building the water back up to?

rack a full, clean one gallon into secondary

I'd loose the secondary for all recipes unless there is a specific reason for it to be there, it's just contributing to post fermentation oxidation.

 

[Nick Z]

Slightly off topic: but since you are using such small quantities of hops, why not just use stainless tea infusers instead of all the straining? That is what I do. Also, I am a bit forgetful, and when I forget to add the hops to the boil until the last six or seven minutes I certainly get more hop aroma and flavor in my beer than when I boil the hops longer. Maybe a five minute addition would help?

I.... didn't know you could do that. I tried something like that with hop steeping bags. But the hop pellets didn't stay in the bags. The vast majority of it escaped into the wort. Would the same happen with a tea strainer?

I also figured that having hops trapped would lead to crappier hop utilization than when they were freely floating around in the wort.

Are there infusers large enough and fine enough for this? I could look into picking up three or four of them. It also be more sustainable than using hop steeping bags and tossing them.

 

[Nick Z]

What water profile are you building the water back up to?

I build whatever "balanced" profile is for the color of the beer in Bru N Water. I.e. amber balanced, black balanced, etc. I build it so that all the adjusted cells are green. Typically I add gypsum, chloride, and epsom salts. For darker beers I have to use baking soda and pickling lime to push up the mash pH.

And yes, I bought the supporters version.

I did look at the one gallon brewers thread. I liked it but there were so many posts I just couldn't read them all.

I learned to brew through books like Papazian's and Palmer's. But most of what was in there applied to five gallon batches with specific equipment.

I had hoped to join the local homebrew club (I think it's Oregon Brew Crew or the Portland one) and ask some kind souls to teach me brewing. Or at least let me observe. Then COVID hit and that idea went down the drain.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I just couldn't read them all.

Consider skim reading starting in 2018.

 

[McKnuckle]

Get one of these and a standard 5 gallon bucket. Put your hops in the boil with no bags or screens. When done, pour the wort into the bucket over this filter. Then move it to your fermenter. Done.

Amazon.com

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If it wasn't covered in one of their existing eposides, it might be interesting to email the guys over at Basic Brewing to find out how they bottle their "Hop Sampler" batches.

 

[Nick Z]

Would this work as a tea infuser for the hops?

https://www.amazon.com/Infuser-Cook...2&sr=1-2-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081
If I was to use the paint strainer thing in a bucket, how would I do this with flameout hop additions? Just leave everything in the kettle for a certain amount of time and then strain it all out at once?

 

[Mtrhdltd]

Out of curiosity, why are you so worried about hops in your fermenter? You are removing the very thing you want more of.

 

[McKnuckle]

If I was to use the paint strainer thing in a bucket, how would I do this with flameout hop additions? Just leave everything in the kettle for a certain amount of time and then strain it all out at once?

YES. It's extremely simple. The flameout hop additions need to be steeped at below 180F or so for 20-30 minutes. Then you chill the rest of the way down.

You then use the bucket filter as a preliminary step when you transfer your cooled wort to the fermenter.

Cooled wort with all hops floating in it --> pour into bucket over filter to contain hops --> pour clear wort from bucket into fermenter --> pitch yeast

 

[greywolf]

It is the oxygen. It sucks all the hops flavor out of your wort. Fix that and you will see huge improvements. You can do it as Mcknuckle says (great solution) but Hops sediment isn't the problem, Oxygen is. Transfer wort to bottling with as little disturbance as possible. I went to ferment and serve in the same keg for these styles. Instant improvement. I use a floating dip tube and don't worry about debris or sediment. I can bottle off the keg if I want to take them somewhere. You' re so close.

 

[McKnuckle]

I agree about oxidation being a major factor. That, and likely some rough treatment of finishing hops without adequate flavor hop additions to add depth to the overall profile. Hence the multiple angles being explored here.

 

[Golddiggie]

Your local HBS should sell the nylon mesh bags (tight weave) that will contain the hop particles easily. I've used them in the past for both the boil and in keg. Never had an issue with the hop matter leaking out. If you're using muslin bags, those are NOT made to contain hop matter.

For the tea item, make sure that everything is stainless steel. Especially the chain and such. There are a lot of them that the chain is NOT stainless (chrome plated maybe). Which will at least discolor.

I still think you should just get the 300 (or 400) mesh stainless strainer that sits in your boil kettle/pot and be done with it. There are plenty of them even on Amazon for not a lot of money. Get one larger and when you step up your batch size, you'll be able to keep using it.

 

[eric19312]

3.) I bottle condition (I don't have kegging equipment and don't want to get it) so the beer is exposed to a lot of air in the bottling bucket and the empty bottles. Could the hop flavor be getting lost that way? I know that happens with the super hoppy New England IPAs but people have been bottle conditioning regular IPAs for decades, yes?

If it wasn't covered in one of their existing eposides, it might be interesting to email the guys over at Basic Brewing to find out how they bottle their "Hop Sampler" batches.

I think @BrewnWKopperKat was onto something. I think James is bottling with Cooper's Carbonation Drops. This eliminates the bottling bucket...just fill the bottles direct from your fermentor and I would think this would substantially reduce oxygen pickup during bottling. The drops will also assure you are getting enough carbonation to push some hop aroma into your face when you taste the beer.

 

[ashopis]

And #1 and #2, oxygen is not that aggressive in non bio transformed beers, as there are less bindings going on, it definitely affects but I've had commercial bottle condiotions dry hopped saisons, some 3 years old and there was still hop freshness, due to that lack of binding components going on. He's reducing hop extraction at whirpool by removing them earlier and he's doing the same thing with the use of bags at dry hop, I don't do Hazy IPAs but I do dry hop other beers and I had a massive change in my beers when I moved from musslim bags to a hop tube in dry hop.

So I would leave the hops until the end of the cooling, a strainer is pretty easy to sanitize so you can use it at cool temps, and move to a hop tube, it will improve a lot the hop extraction. Oxygen shouldn't be a major issue when it comes to not biotransformed beers, obviously don't leave them there to sit for months, specially out of the fridge, but they should be good during a couple months so you should be able to drink through those batches while still tasty

What is a “hop tube?

 

[Nick Z]

Out of curiosity, why are you so worried about hops in your fermenter? You are removing the very thing you want more of.

I think I had read somewhere that you must get all of the hop sediment out of the wort before fermentation. I believe the idea was that hops in the wort result in off flavors, excessive bitterness, etc.

On the dry hopping side the reason I want to contain the hops is that I started with just tossing in the hops loose (in secondary). It was a nightmare bottling. No matter how carefully I racked tons of hops clogged up the bottling bucket and the bottling wand and the siphon.

If letting them loose is what's needed then I'll do it.

These are the hop steeping bags I used:

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...d6HnaAHc0VARUHyGR5_U7XQ28S-DcmphoCaIQQAvD_BwE
I used them because, well, they were called hop steeping bags. But the hops escaped last time I used them. I checked the bag afterwards and I didn't see any holes in it nor did my knot come loose. I assume the hops just migrated out.

I wanted to extend a note of thanks again. I acknowledge I must seem dense. I think I just got into the habit of making do with what was on hand.

The replies are appreciated.

 

[McKnuckle]

You do not have to get all the hops out of the wort before fermenting, but it's better if you do. This is the trouble with having the homebrew Wild West on HBT answer your post. You'll get the whole gamut of personalities and degrees of refinement among brewers and you have to sort through them.

But yes, while some people will say "I just throw everything in; it all settles out, I get good beer" - and they probably do - kettle hops in the fermenter is not a best practice in brewing. But they are so easy to remove... it's been explained in this thread several times already.

I agree about dry hops. I always contain them. One clogged poppet on an otherwise perfectly carbonated and sealed keg is enough to force that practice. Get these for your dry hops.

 

[Golddiggie]

@Nick Z IME, teh muslin bags do NOT have a tight enough weave to contain pellet hops. They could work for leaf hops.

Get these: Straining Bag - Fine Mesh Hops 8

Or one of these: stainless hop filter
Or one like it sized for your boil vessel. I picked up the 6x14 model and modified it for use in my keggle. You should be able to find one that works well with your boil vessel, if you're doing a full boil at least (for your tiny 1 gallon batches ).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The drops will also assure you are getting enough carbonation to push some hop aroma into your face when you taste the beer.

And if carbonation drop / tabs don't work, there are a number of additional ideas for dosing individual bottles over in "one gallon brewers unite".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Yup. I just throw everything in; it all settles out, I get good beer.

 

[Nick Z]

I was under the impression that you had to get every single particle of hop matter you could out of the wort before it goes into the fermenter. Just like you have to get every single particle of grain you can out before the boil.

I could have sworn Papazian mentioned sparging the hops. Where he strains out the hops then pours the wort back over them.

It occurs to me I get more hop flavor out of the Centennial Blonde Ale than I do the IPA recipes. It may be because I use whole leaf hops in that recipe (I just happened to have some whole leaf Centennial and Cascade on hand when I first made it and just kept doing it). Getting that small amount of whole hops out only took one or two runs through the strainer. As opposed to the dozen or so it takes with pellet hops. That might have lessened the damage I was doing to those brews.

 

[jddevinn]

oxygen is not that aggressive in non bio transformed beers, as there are less bindings going on, it definitely affects but I've had commercial bottle condiotions dry hopped saisons, some 3 years old and there was still hop freshness,

Those commercial bottles likely were bottle to the industrial standard of having a low ppb range of dissolved oxygen. Post fermentation oxygen is definitely detrimental to all beers. A home brewer bottling from a bucket is going to have a hard time getting into the ppm range.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A home brewer bottling from a bucket is going to have a hard time getting into the ppm range.

And yet many of us make beer that we (and our friends) enjoy.

 

[jddevinn]

And yet many of us make beer that we (and our friends) enjoy.

And I'm sure that you aren't splashing all over the place while bottling and that you aren't keeping "3 years of hop freshness". If you oxidize fermented beer it will, among other things, greatly reduce the hop flavor very quickly. With the answers on process from the OP oxidation seems to be the most likely culprit.

I'm not saying that you cannot bottle good beer at home. However, post fermentation oxidation is a very quick process with a low threshold. Everyone should be doing the most they can to limit oxygen exposure post fermentation. "Oxygen is not that aggressive in non bio transformed beers" is incorrect.

 

[Nick Z]

What about dry hopping? My typical method is to stick the hops in the muslin bag and throw it into the bucket. Usually after fermentation is complete. Sometimes in the middle of it. I read about throwing in a little sugar to restart fermentation to scrub the oyxgen out of the headspace.

But considering that my dry hopping doesn't appear to be working I'd say I am doing something wrong.

 

[jddevinn]

Dry hopping can add some taste but does not add bitterness, it is primarily for aroma.

If I was you I would brew a batch or two without dry hopping while trying to isolate the flavor issue, then work on the dry hop procedure.

 

[McKnuckle]

"Throw [hops] in the bucket..."

It seems that you don't fear oxygen nearly enough. Here's how I dry hopped my last pale ale, just for comparison, to give you an idea of how home brewers can keep oxygen away from beer on the cold side:

At the beginning of fermentation, I placed my dry hops in a stainless canister, and put the canister into the keg from which the beer would ultimately be served, which I sealed up.

I then fermented the beer in another sealed keg, venting the fermentation CO2 into the serving keg via a jumper hose. I attached a blow-off from the serving keg into a jar of StarSan. This effectively purged the serving keg of oxygen and replaced it with CO2 during the ~7 days of fermentation.

At the end of fermentation, I transferred the beer from the fermenter keg to the serving keg on top of the dry hops. This was done without opening either keg, using gravity and a bit of bottled CO2 to push it. The serving keg was placed in my keezer and force carbonated over a couple of weeks. The hops were left in there for the duration.

Hop flavor and aroma were still fresh at 49 days when the keg gave up its last pint. The beer was not exposed to atmospheric O2, not even once, after the yeast was pitched. That's the kind of thing you need to work towards when it comes to O2 avoidance.

 

[Nick Z]

I just put together an experimental recipe. This uses whole leaf hops, which are easier for me to get out with my current equipment. Plus I happen to have some on hand. It should create 1.25 gallons of wort.

The malt bill is from the American Pale Ale recipe from Brewing Classic Styles. I fiddled around with the hops a bit.

The hop schedule is as follows:

1 gram of Centennial at 30 minutes.
7 grams Centennial at 10 minutes.
7 grams Cascade at 10 minutes.
10 grams of Centennial at 5 minutes.
10 grams of Centennial at 5 minutes.
10 grams of Centennial at flameout
10 grams of Cascade at flameout.

I figure I will immediately move the kettle to the ice water bath. Once the temperature drops to around 120 or so I will take it out of the bath and let it sit for 30 minutes. After that I will return it to ice water to chill down to pitching temp. Then strain the hops out, not freaking out if they don't strain perfectly. Then pitch the yeast and pray.

Thoughts? I'm going to get either some tea infusers, that bucket screen and some mesh bags. But that will take a while and I am eager to see if I can stop screwing up. I actually have a fairly large stainless steel strainer I could use. Not super fine mesh but I think it will catch most whole leaf hops.

 

[AMessenger]

I would add some dry hops to that. Here a very interesting Brulosophy experiment with some surprising results:

https://brulosophy.com/2016/02/29/hop-stand-vs-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm not saying that you cannot bottle good beer at home.

Thank you.

 

[jddevinn]

I don't think it has been asked, what are you fermenting in?