Can't get real hop flavor

[Harleybrew32]

another question when you put the hops in your bag, do you leave room for them to expand?
in other words don't tie the bag tight to the hops leave some room.

 

[McKnuckle]

@Nick Z , the real challenge begins once you pitch the yeast.

Your recipe and pre-pitch technique sounds fine, but how are you treating fermentation and packaging? That's really the most important part of the process to preserve all flavors and aromas in beer, malt and hops alike.

The Centennial and Cascade hop schedule sounds great to get those flavors into the wort. But you need to keep them around once it turns into beer. Talk less about your hop additions and more about your cold side process.

 

[bwible]

My last couple APA’s and IPA’s were lacking in hop flavor and I have it down to 2 things.

1) I picked up a hop spider - a little basket made of a tight wire mesh that hangs inside the kettle - and I have found that all the beers I’ve done using it lack bitterness and flavor. I thought of increasing all my hop additions to make up for that, but I decided to just stop using it instead.

2) My water chemistry. I moved last year and have only done a few hoppy beers since. I got a water test from Ward Labs at the new house. It says Chloride is 81 and Sulfate is only 5. Reading Palmer and others, they say you want sulfate/chloride 2:1 or higher - mine in much off the other way. 16:1 Chloride/Sulfate. I think need to adjust this ratio.

I’m not a water chemistry expert and I’m aware there is much debate around Palmer’s calculations not being a cure-all. But I think I have to add Gypsum since I have practically no sulfate. Burton On Trent is high in Gypsum, thats why they’ve brewed good IPA there forever.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I don't think it has been asked, what are you fermenting in?

It was mentioned back in #26.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Talk less about your hop additions and more about your cold side process.

"Asking for a friend": could those of you who have good cold side processes talk about your process?

 

[bwible]

Get these for your dry hops.

+1 - I own 2 of these and they work very well

 

[bwible]

[Deleted]

 

[McKnuckle]

Anyway, info I can see in this thread about fermentation is that primary takes place in a 2 gallon plastic bucket. Nothing is stated about sealing or opening for samples. Clear beer is racked to a secondary vessel, racking technique and vessel not specified, nor is time in secondary specified. Beer is bottled from secondary vessel, no info about how (spigot, siphon, bottling wand, purging, etc.).

So I think there's plenty of oxidation risk with this. Sounding like a broken record now so I'll bow out and watch for a while.

 

[Golddiggie]

"Asking for a friend": could those of you who have good cold side processes talk about your process?

If you're talking post chill and once in fermenter, here's what I do...
Move to fermenting location (temperature stable room or chamber).
Infuse wort with pure O2.
Pitch yeast (typically from a starter process).
Seal fermenter (I use converted/adapted commercial kegs).
Either fit with airlock/blow-off hose or spunding valve (fermenting under pressure for the past couple of batches, liking it).
Leave it the F alone for 2-4 weeks, or until it's finished and enough time has one past for the yeast to flocculate out of suspension.
Transfer to serving/carbonating keg with CO2 push.
Move to keezer for chill and carbonate (~2 weeks at serving pressure/temperature).
Enjoy.

I've been using CO2 pushes to move my finished beer for a long time. I have TC caps made that fit directly onto the keg openings that allow me to do this easily. My 50L fermenter (or 13.3 gallon) was fitted with a 4" TC ferrule when I set it up. The matching cap has both gas and liquid fittings, plus a thermowell. I use a temperature sensor to tell me what's going on inside the beer.
Since I started using the spunding valve, I've not needed a blow-off hose at all. I set the valve to vent at about 14psi and just let it run. I have the outlet tube on the assemble going into a small (plastic) jar with Starsan solution in it so that I can see gas movement. Since my fermenters are 100% sealed (zero chance of leaks) this is a valid sign. I still give it time it needs to finish (I don't rush things). My fermentation chamber doesn't (yet) have a heat source, just cooling. I might add a heat element to it at some point, but I've not needed to yet. If nothing else, I'll just close it up and allow the fermenting beer to warm it.

Also, if I want more hop flavor/aroma in a batch, I add hops into the serving keg before it goes for chill/carbonate. I've left those in for a few months without issue. I do have the lids with the tab welded to them that will allow me to suspend stainless mesh hop infusion items for these recipes moving forward. No more rinsing/cleaning the nylon mesh bags for me.

I also chill my wort with a 12" long, 40 plate, plate chiller. One of the best things I did for the brewing process.

I ONLY move my beer to another vessel (that's not for serving/carbonating) IF I'm going to age it for XX weeks (or longer). No "secondary fermenter" used. When I do move it to an aging vessel, it's moved via CO2 push (bottom to bottom via dip tubes) and then the headspace is fully purged with CO2 (multiple times to ensure I remove as much O2 as is possible without going insane). Even with using CO2 pushes and such, I move my beer as little as possible.

Another benefit of my method is once the yeast is pitched, the fermenter isn't moved (at all) until I've transferred the finished beer out of it. No lifting it to syphon out the beer, for any reason. I also haven't used a syphon in ages (got rid of mine many years ago now). I use a simple keg to keg jumper (beer ball lock fittings and clear tubing) for the transfers (swivel nut fittings). Makes things much easier on me. especially when I need to move 9 gallons of beer out of the 50L fermenter alone.

 

[Nick Z]

@Nick Z , the real challenge begins once you pitch the yeast.

Your recipe and pre-pitch technique sounds fine, but how are you treating fermentation and packaging? That's really the most important part of the process to preserve all flavors and aromas in beer, malt and hops alike.

The Centennial and Cascade hop schedule sounds great to get those flavors into the wort. But you need to keep them around once it turns into beer. Talk less about your hop additions and more about your cold side process.

You're very correct. It would seem my hot and cold side processes both suck like an Electrolux.

I ferment in two gallon buckets. I typically use dry yeast. Sometimes liquid. I probably tend to over pitch. When dry hopping I put the hops in those little muslin baggies and toss them into the bucket. I try to allow as little air in as possible.

Here is an absurdly detailed version of how I deal with beer post fermentation:

Rack the beer to a one gallon jug out of the bucket. The logic behind this is that I end with less trub and crap in the final beer. It also allows me to visually see how much clean beer I have. I leave it in secondary for about a day for the yeast to settle. Then bottle the next day. There is very little head space in the gallon jug.

Then I rack the beer to my bottling bucket with the priming sugar, give it a gentle stir (the one time I didn't do this I didn't get even carbonation). The bottling bucket is a one gallon bucket with a spigot installed. Then attach the bottling wand and fill the bottles. Immediately cap them with O2 absorbing bottle caps. Then let them sit for about a month at room temperature.

It seems to take them about a month for full carbonation to occur and not taste "green." I usually carbonate lighter beers to three volumes and darker beers to two volumes.

Suggestions for improvement are very much welcomed. But I intend to continue bottling. Kegs, even small ones, just aren't practical at this juncture.

I assume my asinine methods are not just damaging hop flavor but other flavors as well? I seem able to make decent porters and stouts but that could simply be wishful thinking on my part.

I will note that I recently made the strawberry milkshake IPA out of Zymurgy. I could tell something went wrong because despite the enormous amount of Mosaic hops put in there the final product had virtually no hop flavor. In fact it had a sort of "rancid" taste at the end. I do not intend to make New England IPAs again.

The one time I made a hoppy beer that worked I recall racking the beer to a glass jug after fermentation and throwing the hops in loose for dry hopping. It was a horrible mess at bottling time. But the resulting beer was hoppy.

Again, my thanks to all of you for your help.

 

[McKnuckle]

Thanks for the detail! I would say that in terms of classic homebrew techniques, your method is not unusual at all. But in light of contemporary discoveries and equipment/technique evolution in the homebrew community, you are transferring too frequently and probably making the beer vulnerable to O2. While your darker, malty beers don't seem to suffer, that's because hops are just more delicate. They are the first sensory component to go south.

Here's some discussion on what you might change:

Current:
Bucket --> Jug --> Bottling Bucket --> Bottles

Future:
Sealed fermenter --> Bottles

If your goal is to bottle 1 gallon of beer, here's what I would do to improve this. Pick up a primary fermenter with a spigot, large enough to contain the batch size, and stop using a secondary. You can get a Big Mouth Bubbler in a 5 gallon size. It's fine that it's much larger - the headspace will be filled with CO2. It's no issue.

I use a 1 gallon BMB, which is actually about 1.4 gallons. But the bigger ones allow one to be more careless about batch size.

Allow the beer to ferment in the primary without opening it from the start to the finish, not even once. Take samples from the spigot if you must, and use a refractometer (with correction for alcohol) to determine when FG is reached. The exact FG is less important than confirming stability. A hydrometer is great, but we have tiny volume here and can't waste it.

When it's time to bottle, put sugar in the bottles directly. You can do this either with Domino Dots sugar cubes, one per 12 oz. bottle, or with sugar measured on a gram scale. Then bottle as usual with your bottling wand. If you do this well, you'll get one bottle with a little trub. Big deal. Mark the bottle cap with an "X" and try it first.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Domino Dots sugar cubes, one per 12 oz. bottle

Dots come (or came) in two sizes 126 count and 198 count.

With 12 oz bottles, the 198 count dots are the better size (link to math).

But apparently, the 198 count dots are no longer made: Domino Dots FYI

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If your goal is to bottle 1 gallon of beer, here's what I would do to improve this. Pick up a primary fermenter with a spigot, large enough to contain the batch size, and stop using a secondary. You can get a Big Mouth Bubbler in a 5 gallon size. It's fine that it's much larger - the headspace will be filled with CO2. It's no issue.

I use a 1 gallon BMB, which is actually about 1.4 gallons. But the bigger ones allow one to be more careless about batch size.

Allow the beer to ferment in the primary without opening it from the start to the finish, not even once. Take samples from the spigot if you must, and use a refractometer (with correction for alcohol) to determine when FG is reached. The exact FG is less important than confirming stability. A hydrometer is great, but we have tiny volume here and can't waste it.

When it's time to bottle, put sugar in the bottles directly.

1-Gallon Brewers UNITE! (start skimming in 2018) has additional ideas on each step, including some additional ideas for dosing individual bottles.

What you wrote is roughly how I do it (and, as I've noted in the past, the beer comes out fine ).

 

[ThenFalcon]

I'll add another vote for bottling directly from the fermenter.

I've also been using 2 gallon HDPE buckets as fermenters for small batches. You can easily add a spigot to one of those yourself. These have been working good for me. I installed mine around 1.5 inches off the bottom so it's above the trub.

For priming I calculate the amount of dextrose needed, dissolve it in some boiling water, then use a syringe to prime each bottle before filling. This site explains how to do it pretty well and includes a spreadsheet that calculates the amount of solution for each bottle, depending on size.

 

[eric19312]

"Throw [hops] in the bucket..."

It seems that you don't fear oxygen nearly enough. Here's how I dry hopped my last pale ale, just for comparison, to give you an idea of how home brewers can keep oxygen away from beer on the cold side:

At the beginning of fermentation, I placed my dry hops in a stainless canister, and put the canister into the keg from which the beer would ultimately be served, which I sealed up.

I then fermented the beer in another sealed keg, venting the fermentation CO2 into the serving keg via a jumper hose. I attached a blow-off from the serving keg into a jar of StarSan. This effectively purged the serving keg of oxygen and replaced it with CO2 during the ~7 days of fermentation.

At the end of fermentation, I transferred the beer from the fermenter keg to the serving keg on top of the dry hops. This was done without opening either keg, using gravity and a bit of bottled CO2 to push it. The serving keg was placed in my keezer and force carbonated over a couple of weeks. The hops were left in there for the duration.

Hop flavor and aroma were still fresh at 49 days when the keg gave up its last pint. The beer was not exposed to atmospheric O2, not even once, after the yeast was pitched. That's the kind of thing you need to work towards when it comes to O2 avoidance.

I was with you all the way up till your use of the word "need" in your very final sentence. What you are describing is probably best practice for oxygen free dry hopping at homebrew scale but far less extreme measures can still produce an enjoyable and hoppy beer. The OP is not kegging and indicated he is not interested in kegging at current time so this approach isn't going to apply.

 

[McKnuckle]

Need to work towards. I did try to express that.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A hydrometer is great, but we have tiny volume here and can't waste it.

When brewing a 12-pack using a 2 gal pail as a fermenter (which is pretty close to what OP is trying to do), there is enough space in the fermenter to scale up the recipe about 8 oz to account for two hydrometer readings.

 

[Nick Z]

Thanks for the detail! I would say that in terms of classic homebrew techniques, your method is not unusual at all. But in light of contemporary discoveries and equipment/technique evolution in the homebrew community, you are transferring too frequently and probably making the beer vulnerable to O2. While your darker, malty beers don't seem to suffer, that's because hops are just more delicate. They are the first sensory component to go south.

Here's some discussion on what you might change:

Current:
Bucket --> Jug --> Bottling Bucket --> Bottles

Future:
Sealed fermenter --> Bottles

If your goal is to bottle 1 gallon of beer, here's what I would do to improve this. Pick up a primary fermenter with a spigot, large enough to contain the batch size, and stop using a secondary. You can get a Big Mouth Bubbler in a 5 gallon size. It's fine that it's much larger - the headspace will be filled with CO2. It's no issue.

I use a 1 gallon BMB, which is actually about 1.4 gallons. But the bigger ones allow one to be more careless about batch size.

Allow the beer to ferment in the primary without opening it from the start to the finish, not even once. Take samples from the spigot if you must, and use a refractometer (with correction for alcohol) to determine when FG is reached. The exact FG is less important than confirming stability. A hydrometer is great, but we have tiny volume here and can't waste it.

When it's time to bottle, put sugar in the bottles directly. You can do this either with Domino Dots sugar cubes, one per 12 oz. bottle, or with sugar measured on a gram scale. Then bottle as usual with your bottling wand. If you do this well, you'll get one bottle with a little trub. Big deal. Mark the bottle cap with an "X" and try it first.

The spigot idea is good. I have about a dozen two gallon buckets (with nice seals, gotten from homebrew shops). I could get a few spigots and install them. I think the homebrew shops will do it for me but I also have a drill press so I might be able to do it myself. I'll have to see if I have the proper size bit that won't rip the plastic to shreds (spade bits tend to do that).

Wouldn't I have to open up the fermenter to dry hop, spigot or no?

I ordered the bucket screen and some tea infusers from Amazon. I'll pop by my local homebrew shop to look for the mesh bags and spigots.

I'm not clear on how to bottle from the fermenter (without spigots). Would I attach the bottling wand directly to the hose end of the siphon? I don't think I can manipulate both ends at the same time without sucking all the trub and crap out of the bottom of the primary fermenter.

Does it make any sense to rack to secondary before fermentation is complete? On the assumption that the continued fermentation will quickly scrub out any oxygen?

 

[McKnuckle]

Wouldn't I have to open up the fermenter to dry hop, spigot or no?

Yes, but if you do it quickly and during active fermentation it's not so bad. But you could also just experiment first with no dry hops, and as much O2 avoidance as possible to see if it makes a difference.

I'm not clear on how to bottle from the fermenter (without spigots).

Don't. It's a PITA and will undermine your O2 avoidance efforts.

Does it make any sense to rack to secondary before fermentation is complete? On the assumption that the continued fermentation will quickly scrub out any oxygen?

No; there's no point, and this "scrubbing" does not actually happen.

 

[bwible]

I’ve never had luck adding sugar directly to each bottle. First is the sanitation issue. Second is the math required and minute measurements. Anybody ever try to reload .25 caliber bullets?

Batch priming is where I’ve had the best success. You’re measuring a bigger quantity of sugar and boiling that in a small amount of water, which should solve any sanitation issues.

I’m bottling 30 at a time with mixed success depending on which priming calculator I use. And I do own a gram scale. It understandably has to be even harder at the 1 gallon level.

 

[Nick Z]

I’ve never had luck adding sugar directly to each bottle. First is the sanitation issue. Second is the math required and minute measurements. Anybody ever try to reload .25 caliber bullets?

Batch priming is where I’ve had the best success. You’re measuring a bigger quantity of sugar and boiling that in a small amount of water, which should solve any sanitation issues.

I’m bottling 30 at a time with mixed success depending on which priming calculator I use. And I do own a gram scale. It understandably has to be even harder at the 1 gallon level.

I'm not sure what you mean by batch priming. Unless you're mixing your beer with the priming sugar in the bottling bucket. Which is what I do now. I use the Northern Brewer priming sugar calculator and a scale. It seems to work fine.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/pages/priming-sugar-calculator

 

[McKnuckle]

I've had plenty of luck adding sugar to individual bottles. Ask two homebrewers, and...

You need a scale capable of measuring in 0.1 gram increments. Or use sugar cubes.

Yes, batch priming is mixing the sugar in with the whole batch.

 

[Dinadan]

Back to the original topic: Hop flavor in a really small batch of beer.

Here is another idea. A while back I made an amber kit beer, 2 gallons. It was pretty good but a bit bland. So when I made the next two gallon batch of the same amber kit I tried this. When it came time to bottle, I boiled one cup of water to melt my sugar and dropped one of those infusers with 1/4 cup of Mosaic hops into the boil for a couple of minutes before I added the sugar. Then I added the water/sugar mix to the beer. I could definitely taste the hops compared my original batch, just from that two or three minute boil in the bottling water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

scale capable of measuring in 0.1 gram increments

Jewelry scales with .001 g accuracy are currently $15 - $20 (USD). Their strength is that they can accurately weigh small amounts (0.2 g) of things (brewing salts).

 

[Nick Z]

This is mine:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Wei...9&sr=1-1-80ba0e26-a1cd-4e7b-87a0-a2ffae3a273c
I've been quite happy with it. I've had it for about a year

 

[Nick Z]

So... as far sugar cubes or carbonation drops go, how would I figure out what volume of carbonation I am doing?

With the bottling bucket, it's easy. Measure out the sugar for the CO2 volumes and amount of beer, boil it in a little water, throw it in the bucket.

But if I dose each bottle individually I worry about consistency. Or bottle bombs.
Unless someone has worked out how many drops/cubes to use per 12 ounce bottle for a given volume of carbonation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But if I dose each bottle individually I worry about consistency. Or bottle bombs.
Unless someone has worked out how many drops/cubes to use per 12 ounce bottle for a given volume of carbonation.

You could start here (follow the "link to math") and verify to your satisfaction that the math is correct.

With 12 oz bottles, the 198 count dots are the better size (link to math).

Also check out "One gallon brewers unite".

 

[Nick Z]

Quick update:

I had an extra spigot lying around so I drilled a hole in one of my fermentation buckets and installed it. I guess we'll see if it can be bottled from.

 

[Nick Z]

I brewed the recipe I shared earlier. I wanted to over my process so that folks could critique it.

After throwing in the flameout hops I took the kettle, with all the hops in it, to the ice water bath. (it also got a pinch of Irish Moss at 12 minutes in the boil) It dropped to about 160 degrees F in a few minutes. Once it hit around 100 degrees F I took it out of the ice bath and let it sit for about thirty minutes. Then I returned it to the ice bath and chilled down to 60 F. Then I poured the wort, once, through a stainless steel colander I have. It did a good job of filtering out most of the whole leaf hops. I squished the hops a bit with a spatula to get more wort (and hopefully hop flavor out). Then I pitched the yeast and closed the fermenter. I don't plan to dry hop this one.

A couple of concerns:

I had a not very tight fitting lid on it. I didn't know whether I should keep a lid on it or not. I don't really have a proper lid for this but I did put a lid on. I think I read somewhere that you don't want to keep a lid on during chilling because of DMS or something. But I figured the less air that gets into the wort, the better.

I stirred it (gently) several times through the chilling and steeping process. If I don't do that then the center of the wort remains extremely hot, while the sides cool down. Stirring helps cool the wort more evenly. But I didn't know if even that level of fiddling with the wort was a no no. I can just not stir it but it will take much longer for the temperature in the center to drop.

While the small colander did catch most of the whole leaf hops I'm sure plenty of hop matter made it through. I didn't want to strain it again because I figured I would just be replicating the same oxygen introducing stuff I was doing before.

I'm going to bottle this batch in a bottling bucket as normal. I only have one fermenter, currently, with a spigot, and I'm saving it for something with Mosaic hops in it. I'm going to order some more spigots and try bottling directly from the fermenter. I am not going to rack this batch to secondary. Just from the fermenter into the bottling bucket.

Does Brew Tan B actually help retain hop flavor or act as an anti hop oxidation agent? I've heard widely differing opinions on this stuff, including how to use it.

Sorry for how long this is. And thanks again.

 

[jddevinn]

I had a not very tight fitting lid on it. I didn't know whether I should keep a lid on it or not. I don't really have a proper lid for this but I did put a lid on. I think I read somewhere that you don't want to keep a lid on during chilling because of DMS or something. But I figured the less air that gets into the wort, the better.

I stirred it (gently) several times through the chilling and steeping process. If I don't do that then the center of the wort remains extremely hot, while the sides cool down. Stirring helps cool the wort more evenly. But I didn't know if even that level of fiddling with the wort was a no no. I can just not stir it but it will take much longer for the temperature in the center to drop.

While the small colander did catch most of the whole leaf hops I'm sure plenty of hop matter made it through. I didn't want to strain it again because I figured I would just be replicating the same oxygen introducing stuff I was doing before.

Lid on during cooling is good. You don't want the lid on during BOILING to allow DMS to escape.

Stirring the wort during cooling is fine, when we whirlpool we just do this stirring with a pump. Oxygen addition after cooling to pitch temperature is OK and DESIRED. The yeast want oxygen to multiply, the less oxygen the less the yeast will multiply. Once cooled, before pitching is the only time that adding O2 is good.

You don't want to add O2 while still hot, and MUCH more importantly after fermentation.

I've never bottled before, but I believe the recommendation is to go from the fermenter spout (using tubing that has no leaks) to the bottling bucket and bottle from there.