Candi Syrup - Is it real? - Does it matter?

[day_trippr]

Could simply be CSI priced themselves out of LDC's business model...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Nature abhors a vacuum. So does business. Betting that LDC saw the opening and rushed in with a poorly-executed replacement, hoping no one would notice or care.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have no real knowledge of the situation other than when I asked LDC why the product changed, they just said they had a problem with the original supplier. Who knows what that is. Pricing disagreement maybe. I wouldn't immediately assume LDC was the aggressor in the conflict. Maybe it was all a cost cutting plan from the beginning. No evidence.

 

[Snuffy]

But you gotta admit, that label similarity is the shady part. Change your product, sure. But don't trick me into thinking it's the same.

 

[MaxStout]

They wouldn't be the first company to step close to the line of some other company's trade dress. Aldi does it a lot.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Side question: can oatmeal stouts start claiming they're "heart healthy" too?

 

[MaxStout]

Side question: can oatmeal stouts start claiming they're "heart healthy" too?

Why, yes! And kids find it yummy!

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I haven't written it up yet, but in September I brewed my annual Westvleteren 12 clone with the new 180L. It's been in bottles for a couple weeks.

Hey Mashdar, any tasting updates on how this beer with the knockoff syrup turned out, now that it has some age on it? I just used my last pouch of real Candi-Syrup last week, and now my office/fermentation chamber is smelling SO amazing, that I'm tempted to get another batch going right away, but would have to try and split the new 2.5 lb packs (I do 2.5 ~ 3.0 gallons on my stovetop), which is something I'd rather not have to do, if the knockoff syrup still makes a "wow, that's pretty amazing" dark-strong ale.

 

[mashdar]

Hey Mashdar, any tasting updates on how this beer with the knockoff syrup turned out, now that it has some age on it? I just used my last pouch of real Candi-Syrup last week, and now my office/fermentation chamber is smelling SO amazing, that I'm tempted to get another batch going right away, but would have to try and split the new 2.5 lb packs (I do 2.5 ~ 3.0 gallons on my stovetop), which is something I'd rather not have to do, if the knockoff syrup still makes a "wow, that's pretty amazing" dark-strong ale.

I just finished the last high-O2 exposure bottle, but I wasn't taking notes. I'll cool down one of the better 2024 bottles (I number them as I fill) and do a side by side with the last of the 2023 batch in a few days.

 

[mashdar]

Taste test as promised. This is the 2023 batch vs 2024 batch of the CSI classic recipe Westvleteren clone.

Major differences are:
2023 used 2 lbs CSI D-180 in 5 gallons. 2024 used 2.5 lbs LD Carlson D180 in 5 gallons.
2023 airlick went dry during storage, which likely darkened it and changed flavor/prematurely aged. It ended up with a slight ethyl acetate defect (pear/nail polish).
2024 got over-carbed to 3.5 volumes because I'm a dummy.

I've attached a side-by-side photo and two backlit for comparison.

Edit: corrected acetyl acetate to ethyl acetate

Edit: Adding tasting notes, finally.

Spoiler: Wuvleteren '23 (CSI version)

• Production notes
  • Left in primary for ~1 mo.
  • Bulk aged in carboy for ~4 mo
  • Airlock went dry during bulk aging. Likely darkened, decreased shelf life, and may be responsible for the ethyl acetate. Worth noting, though, that color was not all that different from earlier years.
  • Primed, added fresh yeast, & bottled
  • bottle ~18 months old, 22 months total aging
• Appearance
  • Dark Ruby
  • Clear
  • Nice Bubbles
  • Head is very tight and self replenishing at 1/4"
• Smell
  • Light toffee. That's mostly all.
• Taste
  • Toffee
  • Raisin
  • Dark fruit
  • Ethyl acetate - pear verging on nail polish.
  • Probably slightly past prime at 22 mo old. The extra O2 during bulk aging is probably the reason for early demise.
• Mouthfeel
  • Slightly thick, smooth
• Overall
  • This was better 6 months ago. Too bad, as '21 and '22 aged much more gracefully.
  • Acceptable, but in this state I wouldn't be thrilled if I bought this bottle.

Spoiler: Wuvleteren '24 (LDC version)

• Production notes
  • Left in primary for ~1 mo.
  • Bulk aged in sealed keg, 5psi for ~4 mo
  • Primed, added fresh yeast, & bottled. 1.5/5 gallons were still in keg, so priming was ~3.5 vol instead of 2.5 vol. D'oh. Didn't notice until mostly done with bottling, ended up drinking the keg portion from keg.
  • bottle ~6 months old, 10 months total aging
• Appearance
  • Medium-dark copper
  • Clear
  • Nice bubbles
  • Head is fairly tight and self replenishing at 1/4"
• Smell
  • Malt
  • Cherry
  • Faint alcohol
  • Caramel
• Taste
  • Lingering toffee, maybe faint cardboard
  • Cleaner than '23, but less complex
  • Limited undernotes
• Mouthfeel
  • Slightly thick, coats mouth, sticky
• Overall
  • Just kind of boring.
  • Missing the dark fruit and red color I associate with Westvleteren 12.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Almost 5 months aging in the keg and almost tastes like oxidation in BOTH beers I made that used the crap that Temu Candi Syrup that LD Carlson is selling.

Getting a sweetness and almost papery/cardboard flavor which I would say is 100% oxidation normally. Although it is possible - I want to blame the syrup. I used a pinch of "D-45" in both of them. I can only detect it on the first sip, but future sips do not have that problem. It is on both the Tripel and the Golden Strong that I brewed. I pressure ferment and I close transferred into a keg with dextrose and ascorbic acid.

It is not typical for me to have oxidation problems, but two back to back makes me think it is the syrup. Wish I had used the real stuff. The Golden Strong came out at 10.1% and the Tripel at 10.5%, the beers are flawless otherwise and aged nicely otherwise.

Golden Strong finished at 1.007. Tripel finished at 1.010.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

probably just a waste of ingredients, but now I kinda want to make a Temu brand Dark Strong:

• knock-off d-180
• american 2-row
• handful of wheaties
• us-05

/goin' straight ta hell

 

[mac_1103]

goin' straight ta hell

Nah. But corn flakes and rice crispies are another matter.

 

[mashdar]

The packaging they use is quite O2 permeable, as opposed to the foil pouches CSI uses. That was my first concern prior to realizing it wasn't even the CSI product.

PS I added the tasting notes, finally.

 

[jdubdvdt]

The packaging they use is quite O2 permeable, as opposed to the foil pouches CSI uses. That was my first concern prior to realizing it wasn't even the CSI product.

PS I added the tasting notes, finally.

Did you add the cardboard after my comment?

I'm wondering if it's the syrup being oxidized or if it's the syrup being subpar quality.

 

[DuncB]

I just use dextrose in my BGS as per Duvel.

 

[mashdar]

Did you add the cardboard after my comment?

I'm wondering if it's the syrup being oxidized or if it's the syrup being subpar quality.

No, actually. It's funny, I didn't even remember writing that.

 

[jdubdvdt]

No, actually. It's funny, I didn't even remember writing that.

I did not add any syrup after fermentation started. Wonder if the oxidation came from the bottles of syrup or if they just taste bad.

I'm not convinced it's oxidation but I guess it could be. Would the yeast scrub it?

 

[Bobby_M]

The packaging they use is quite O2 permeable, as opposed to the foil pouches CSI uses. That was my first concern prior to realizing it wasn't even the CSI product.

PS I added the tasting notes, finally.

I guess you may be disappointed to find that the new CSI packaging is PET jugs.

 

[doug293cz]

I guess you may be disappointed to find that the new CSI packaging is PET jugs.

As plastics go, PET is a pretty good oxygen barrier, but not as good as foil.

Brew on

 

[mashdar]

The LD Carlson appeared to be HDPE, which is... not so good. (I'll double check tomorrow - I still have half a bottle sitting around.)

 

[jdubdvdt]

The LD Carlson appeared to be HDPE, which is... not so good. (I'll double check tomorrow - I still have half a bottle sitting around.)

Just looked at mine

HDPE