Candi syrup and when to add?

[Erik the Anglophile]

I am in my head sketching up some plans for a strong dark belgian I'm gonna do sometime in the future(have a couple brews planned so I don't really know when it will be). And am thinking something like pilsner as base malt, biscuit and special b, 3-4% each, and candi syrup. Was thinking of using about 10%d 90 and 5%d 180, added with protafloc at about 20 min remaining of boil. Am i thinking right or should I add it after primary or is late boil easiest?

 

[IslandLizard]

I add sugar syrups when fermentation is slowing down. I feel it prevents the yeast from early binging, while leaving more of the syrup's character.

No secondaries, unless I want to age it for >1-2 months, which I usually do in a keg to prevent oxygen exposure.

 

[Vale71]

I add the syrup in the fermenter at the beginning of transfer. Adding it at boil will cause you to lose some of the expensive syrup to kettle trub while adding it to the fermenter will give you 100% utilization. I have never had issues with it not dissolving, I just warm the bag up in hot tap water to reduce viscosity and since I fill my conical from the dump port this provides sufficient agitation to achieve uniform mixing.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I ferment in a bucket, so it would involve lifting the lid. Do i just add it when the kreuzen is calming down and shake it a bit and let fermentation kick back up? And also, if i weigh it up in a container then some will stick to it and I won't get everything in there, could I just put it in a sanitized stainless steel measure cup and dump the whole thing in there?
Nvm about the container, realised i can just use one of those soft plastic spatulas to scoop out the last syrup.

 

[charlesbrewer]

I heat mine into runny liquid, and pour to the bottom of my fermentor. I then pour my entire wort into my fermentor over a strainer. That gets it to mix well enough. But I know its not for everyone.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I heat mine into runny liquid, and pour to the bottom of my fermentor. I then pour my entire wort into my fermentor over a strainer. That gets it to mix well enough. But I know its not for everyone.

That sounds like a plan, not too keen on adding stuff during fermentation what with contamination and all. Could the same be done with light/dark muscovado sugar and cane sugar for stouts and strong ales etc?

 

[IslandLizard]

I ferment in a bucket, so it would involve lifting the lid.

I leave the lid on, remove the airlock and grommet, just don't drop the grommet into the bucket. Then add syrups through a funnel with a piece of hose clamped to the spout. The hose reaches a good inch or 2 below the beer level. Keep the funnel half full while pouring to prevent gurgling and air being sucked in, until it's all down.

To make the sugar syrups better pourable, I dilute them with left behind heated up wort, kept in fridge or freezer. But you could use water instead. Keep good sanitation when doing this.

I add the syrup in the fermenter at the beginning of transfer. Adding it at boil will cause you to lose some of the expensive syrup to kettle trub while adding it to the fermenter will give you 100% utilization.

My emphasis ^ and ever so true. Any sugars, DME, etc. are better added that way for zero loss.
Or added at the end of fermentation as I outlined above.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I add sugar syrups when fermentation is slowing down. I feel it prevents the yeast from early binging, while leaving more of the syrup's character.

This works great for me as well, it helps prevent stalling in bigger beers and I get better attenuation, and it also means you dont need such a huge pitch of yeast.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

I'll be doing a BGSA during New Years and will end up adding it at flame out. I have read many sources that either during the final minutes of the boil, during krausen, and when the krausen is subsiding are all acceptable practices. Most traditional Belgian brews have the candi syrup added to the kettle. YMMV

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think I'll go with the adding in bucket befor I pour in the wort plan, might start doing that with sugar in recipes where I use sugar aswell. Sine I aireate the wort it will probably get mixed in the wort good enough.
Thanks for replies, cheers!

 

[Holden Caulfield]

My homegrown excel program will provide all the gravity calcs for preboil, post boil, and fermenter and will account for changes in gravity due to the volume added by the syrups if you add them to the boil or fermenter. I ran into these calculation challenges when doing my first Belgian and missed my numbers, the excel spreadsheet can calculate your pounds of grain, water requirements, ounces of hops, water profile, etc. If interested, here is the link to the latest version. If you have a question, just let me know.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ct5whk6i2rwv3x0/Buildabeer v7.2 DB.xlsm?dl=0

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

My homegrown excel program will provide all the gravity calcs for preboil, post boil, and fermenter and will account for changes in gravity due to the volume added by the syrups if you add them to the boil or fermenter. I ran into these calculation challenges when doing my first Belgian and missed my numbers, the excel spreadsheet can calculate your pounds of grain, water requirements, ounces of hops, water profile, etc. If interested, here is the link to the latest version. If you have a question, just let me know.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ct5whk6i2rwv3x0/Buildabeer v7.2 DB.xlsm?dl=0

Will have to check that out when I am at my computer.
Regarding adding the sugar/syrup right away, I am not planning on using any crazy amounts of syrup, so the yeast binging on that and then leaving the malt sugar shouln't really be a concern in that case right?

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Regarding adding the sugar/syrup right away, I am not planning on using any crazy amounts of syrup, so the yeast binging on that and then leaving the malt sugar shouln't really be a concern in that case right?

I am no expert at making Belgian beers (although I have read a lot) and do not have the experience on how high gravity beers will attenuate if the sugars are added to the boil rather than to the fermenter after fermentation starts to slow. There are others on this forum that are experts on high gravity Belgian beers.

My single experience with brewing a Rochefort 8 clone that started at 1.076 and ended at 1.018 turned out great but is slightly sweeter than I would like. My process included adding the dark candi syrups (about 15% of total pounds) to the boil kettle and aerating the wort only through splashing (which works just fine for me as most of my beers start at around 1.050 and I pitch healthy starters). Based on this single experience I did not obtain the high attenuation expected from the Rochefort yeast. This could be due to many factors including not oxygenating the wort, adding the syrups to the kettle, or my mash schedule. Based on this result, I will be adding the sugars to the fermenter the next time after fermentation slows.

All that being said, my Rochefort clone turned out great even though I missed my numbers so whatever path you take you will make great beer and enjoy the journey.

Below is a snapshot of Gordon Strong's Belgian Dark Strong recipe input into my program that is set to my brewing system inputs. The syrups and sugars are added to the kettle as noted in his recipe. His recipe has a very high 1.091 OG and the sugars/syrups amount to 12.4% of fermentables by weight and he still achieves very high attenuation. Here is the link to his recipe...

https://4b88jq3r6efj3m2kjq2ft5hh-wp...merce_uploads/Belgian-Strong-Dark-Ale_rev.pdf
While the %s of fermentables are the same in my program, the quantities are different from his recipe probably because I lose more wort during transfers. I had to deviate from his mash plan as he uses a step mash that is raised by heating rather than adding boiling water. The high OG combined with my 10 gal mashtun makes doing his step mash schedule impossible for my system - you should confirm that your mashtun will handle such a high gravity beer.

What original gravity are you targeting? What is your recipe? How much sugar/syrup are you adding?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I am no expert at making Belgian beers (although I have read a lot) and do not have the experience on how high gravity beers will attenuate if the sugars are added to the boil rather than to the fermenter after fermentation starts to slow. There are others on this forum that are experts on high gravity Belgian beers.

My single experience with brewing a Rochefort 8 clone that started at 1.076 and ended at 1.018 turned out great but is slightly sweeter than I would like. My process included adding the dark candi syrups (about 15% of total pounds) to the boil kettle and aerating the wort only through splashing (which works just fine for me as most of my beers start at around 1.050 and I pitch healthy starters). Based on this single experience I did not obtain the high attenuation expected from the Rochefort yeast. This could be due to many factors including not oxygenating the wort, adding the syrups to the kettle, or my mash schedule. Based on this result, I will be adding the sugars to the fermenter the next time after fermentation slows.

All that being said, my Rochefort clone turned out great even though I missed my numbers so whatever path you take you will make great beer and enjoy the journey.

Below is a snapshot of Gordon Strong's Belgian Dark Strong recipe input into my program that is set to my brewing system inputs. The syrups and sugars are added to the kettle as noted in his recipe. His recipe has a very high 1.091 OG and the sugars/syrups amount to 12.4% of fermentables by weight and he still achieves very high attenuation. Here is the link to his recipe...

https://4b88jq3r6efj3m2kjq2ft5hh-wp...merce_uploads/Belgian-Strong-Dark-Ale_rev.pdf
While the %s of fermentables are the same in my program, the quantities are different from his recipe probably because I lose more wort during transfers. I had to deviate from his mash plan as he uses a step mash that is raised by heating rather than adding boiling water. The high OG combined with my 10 gal mashtun makes doing his step mash schedule impossible for my system - you should confirm that your mashtun will handle such a high gravity beer.

What original gravity are you targeting? What is your recipe? How much sugar/syrup are you adding?



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well I haven't made the recipe yet, just making some sketches in my head.
My plan was to go with mostly pilsner, biscuit and special b(bout 3-4% each), and then ~10% d90 and 5% d180.
Take syrup, add em to the fermenting bucket and chuck the wort in, I like gouden carolus imperial dark a lot if you've had that, and though this might accomplish something that is sorta kinda similair.
Will probably aim for around .90 OG, and a abv around 9%, mashing at 67C/75min seems reasonable as a compromise between fermentability and residual body. other than that I'm still gonna tinker with it, as said I have a couple brews planned before this gonna happen.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

The Belgian Candi syrup certainly adds a distinctive flavor to the Belgian brew. I'd stir in the Belgian Candi syrup with 10 minutes to go in the boil.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

My plan was to go with mostly pilsner, biscuit and special b(bout 3-4% each), and then ~10% d90 and 5% d180.
Take syrup, add em to the fermenting bucket and chuck the wort in, I like gouden carolus imperial dark a lot if you've had that, and though this might accomplish something that is sorta kinda similair.
Will probably aim for around .90 OG, and a abv around 9%, mashing at 67C/75min seems reasonable as a compromise between fermentability and residual body. other than that I'm still gonna tinker with it, as said I have a couple brews planned before this gonna happen.

Those percentages look good. You may want to lower your mash temp to 148-149 for 90 mins to increase the fermentability of the wort. The Trappist ales tend to finish fairly low despite their high starting gravities. Also, to ensure the candi-syrup is sterile, you may want to just add it to the last 10 mins of the boil. You will leave some behind in the kettle, but you can always add a little more or just go with it as you are not working off a clone recipe. Remember, a couple of pounds of syrup will add 10.4 fl oz to your kettle or fermenter.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most traditional Belgian brews have the candi syrup added to the kettle.

Because it's the easiest to put in recipes and brew instructions, not the necessarily the best method.
Unless you dump trub and all into your fermenter or strain it all out, some of that $$ syrup is left behind with your kettle trub.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Because it's the easiest to put in recipes and brew instructions, not the necessarily the best method.
Unless you dump trub and all into your fermenter or strain it all out, some of that $$ syrup is left behind with your kettle trub.

Yeah. I am curious to know how you factor in late gravity increase additions? I'm sure there's math out there for it

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Yeah. I am curious to know how you factor in late gravity increase additions? I'm sure there's math out there for it

This is exactly the math built into my excel program to address whether syrups and sugars are added to kettle or the fermenter. Once you know the percentages of grains and fermentables in your recipe, it accounts for the volume changes and point losses throughout your process and automatically provides your fermentables pounds and kettle preboil and postboil gravities to hit your OG in the fermenter whether the sugars and syrups are added to the boil or the fermenter.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ct5whk6i2rwv3x0/Buildabeer v7.2 DB.xlsm?dl=0

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah. I am curious to know how you factor in late gravity increase additions? I'm sure there's math out there for it

Candi syrup such as D-90 adds a gravity of 1.032 ppg. So one pound in one gallon raises the gravity by 32 points.
If you have 5 gallons in your fermenter, 1 pound of D-90 (or any other D-xx/D-xxx syrup) will add 32 pts / 5 gallon = 6.4 points of gravity to your beer.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Candi syrup such as D-90 adds a gravity of 1.032 ppg. So one pound in one gallon raises the gravity by 32 points.
If you have 5 gallons in your fermenter, 1 pound of D-90 (or any other D-xx/D-xxx syrup) will add 32 pts / 5 gallon = 6.4 points of gravity to your beer.

So does this mean you will end up with 5 gal + 10.4 fluid oz of wort that is 6.4 gravity points higher or something less to account for the additional liquid? I tested candi-syrup and found that water and the syrup are 100% additive. In other words, if you have 1 gallon of distilled water and add 1 pound of candi-syrup, I know you will have 138.4 fluid oz of liquid, but will you have a solution with a gravity of 1.032 or 128/138.4 * 32 =1.029.6?

 

[IslandLizard]

So does this mean you will end up with 5 gal + 10.4 fluid oz of wort that is 6.4 gravity points higher or something less to account for the additional liquid? I tested candi-syrup and found that water and the syrup are 100% additive. In other words, if you have 1 gallon of distilled water and add 1 pound of candi-syrup, I know you will have 138.4 fluid oz of liquid, but will you have a solution with a gravity of 1.032 or 128/138.4 * 32 =1.029.6?

Yeah, I forgot to note that the volume will be a little larger, due to the volume of the syrup itself plus the water used to make the syrup more pourable with less of it clinging behind.

When using previously saved wort, instead of water, to thin down the syrup, the gravity of the wort used needs to be included too.

[Added]
So yes, in your example you'll end up with an extra 128/138.4 * 32 = 29.6 points of gravity, for an SG of 1.0296.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'll go with kettle then, if the gravity comes out a little low I just add a bit extra next time.
Cheers!

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I believe under Belgian brewing law they are not permitted to add sugar to the fermenter, it must all go into the kettle.

I did some big Belgians and RIS and was adding the sugars around day 4 or 5 and getting good attenuation. I got a bit over confident, and with my last Rochefort 10 clone just added the sugar in the boil. Well the Rochefort yeast gave up so early that I had to repitch a Mangrove Jack M41 starter back in to get it finished. Lesson learnt for me. I’ll be going back to adding sugars as fermentation starts winding down. In these big beers that is.

 

[Vale71]

I believe under Belgian brewing law they are not permitted to add sugar to the fermenter, it must all go into the kettle.

There is no such law.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I add the syrup at 90 if it's dark to get some maillard and at 15 or 10 if it's the clear one

 

[SRJHops]

I've started adding all my sugar at First Wort and it works great. The hot wort dissolves all the sugar in whatever form. I can then get SG's during the boil, then the OG reading.

I was having trouble getting all the sugar to dissolve when I added it at 10, plus I usually have a lot of other things going on at 10, including adding hops, yeast nutrient, and the chiller. I like being able to get all the sugar dissolved and not worry about it.

I've never tried adding the sugar to the fermenter. I'm sure it works well, but I personally would be worried about timing and attenuation. I also don't like to open the fermenter unless I have to.

I'm not sure if I am really losing a ton of flavor by adding the sugar so early -- certainly not for the clear sugars, perhaps for the dark?

I've been getting FG's of around 1.010 (OGs around 1.080), so I am pretty happy with the process -- and especially the final product.

I mash at 149 for 90 for most of them.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

So yes, in your example you'll end up with an extra 128/138.4 * 32 = 29.6 points of gravity, for an SG of 1.0296.

Great, thanks for clarifying.

 

[IslandLizard]

Great, thanks for clarifying.

YVW! I slightly modified that by crossing out "an extra" as it doesn't apply to water. (Everything is extra with water ).