Failure to Carbonate in the Bottle

[Tony Scott]

I have epic fails on getting some of my batches of cider to carbonate in the bottle and without giving you a long history of the things I have tried, wanted to ask the following questions.

1. Hydrate the yeast prior to using it in bottling?
   1. The manufacturers all say "yes" and my local brew shops say "NO NO NO"
2. Add grains of dry yeast in to the bottles of primed liquid -or- stir the yeast in the bucket with the priming sugar?

I will not ask about carbonation drops because I always failed when I used them. I think my issue is with the yeast handling.

My best luck has been when I stir the priming sugar into the batch before bottling and also when I use the same variety of yeast that I started with, stirring that in to the batch before bottling.

Whenever I have used a different yeast at bottling, I have had an epic fail. I let my cider settle out and clear for weeks, so I am pretty convinced I need to add more yeast at bottling.

From brew shops, I get two answers.

1. You should not need to add yeast
2. Oh, yeah, definitely!

WTF? and HELP!

Thank You in advance,

Tony

 

[balrog]

I make ApfelWein, apple juice and chamaigne yeast. It sits in the fermenter for 6-8 weeks, becomes crystal clear.
I bottle using a bottling bucket, adding priming sugar.

There is plenty of yeast still in the liquid, which comes alive on the priming sugar and carbonates in the bottles.

 

[bushpilot]

I have never had to add yeast, and have never had a failed carbonation.

You are not stabilizing, correct?

 

[Chalkyt]

I recently had a similar problem. Have a look at my post of 7 September "An update on Failed Carbonation. Why is it so?", just down the page a bit.

You don’t mention what yeast you are using or what the bottling SG is, but basically a high nutrient demand yeast (such as ale yeasts) combined with cider that is low in nutrients can fail to carbonate because the yeast just runs out of nutrient and stops working. Adding a small amount of nutrient like DAP should start it off again. This may not be your problem but it does sound suspiciously like it.

Similar to your method, I carbonate by adding priming sugar (juice if I have it) and DAP to the bottling bucket and bring the cider up by two gravity points per volume of C02 that I want (plus some extra if I am also going to heat pasteurise the cider and retain some sweetness... but that is another story).

As outlined in the posts above, unless the cider is very old and the yeast has all expired, there should be enough left for carbonation especially if there is sugar and nutrient. Some sources do suggest adding a small amount of yeast like EC1118 if you are uncertain. I have done this in the past but now don't think it is necessary as nutrient depletion and not lack of yeast seems to be the culprit.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Rish]

Adding a small amount of nutrient

OP, are you using nutrients? If not, as @Chalkyt says, that could be your issue. I add Fermaid O to my ciders and never have a problem even after 6+ weeks in the fv.

 

[bushpilot]

I recently had a similar problem. Have a look at my post of 7 September "An update on Failed Carbonation. Why is it so?", just down the page a bit.

You don’t mention what yeast you are using or what the bottling SG is, but basically a high nutrient demand yeast (such as ale yeasts) combined with cider that is low in nutrients can fail to carbonate because the yeast just runs out of nutrient and stops working. Adding a small amount of nutrient like DAP should start it off again. This may not be your problem but it does sound suspiciously like it.

Similar to your method, I carbonate by adding priming sugar (juice if I have it) and DAP to the bottling bucket and bring the cider up by two gravity points per volume of C02 that I want (plus some extra if I am also going to heat pasteurise the cider and retain some sweetness... but that is another story).

As outlined in the posts above, unless the cider is very old and the yeast has all expired, there should be enough left for carbonation especially if there is sugar and nutrient. Some sources do suggest adding a small amount of yeast like EC1118 if you are uncertain. I have done this in the past but now don't think it is necessary as nutrient depletion and not lack of yeast seems to be the culprit.

Let us know how you get on.

Oh, wow, you thought of a couple of things I failed to consider in my response. Good job.

Too high an abv can cause carbonation failure.

I don't recommend adding DAP, as I am pretty sure it will not be usable to the yeast that late in the fermentation.

 

[Chalkyt]

Hmm... interesting comment about alcohol inhibiting yeast, which I hadn't considered. I guess we are drifting off topic a bit and starting to get into rarified atmosphere but probably it still has relevance to the problem. Some points to throw into the search for a solution are...

There isn't always alcohol tolerance information for yeasts although the general opinion is that common "cider" yeasts will accommodate 12-14% ABV. Having said that, Fermentis quote 9-11% ABV for S04 (an ale yeast which I use a lot) and other sources say 8-12% for Ale Yeasts. I have seen it suggested that yeasts will start to falter once they get within 2% of their alcohol tolerance. This brings some yeasts into play regarding incomplete fermentation if used with high sugar (and potentially high alcohol) ciders, especially if the ciders have been chaptalized (say SG1.060 = 8% ABV).

As far as absorption of YAN (to restart fermentation) is concerned. Both Lea and Jolicoeur seem to agree that adding DAP (20% YAN) at 50ppm to a stalled ferment will restart for a 10 gravity point drop, and the process can continue down to dryness. On the other hand, a paper by Molly Kelly (Extension Educator at Penn State) says "Note that at ½ sugar depletion the yeast cannot utilize N since alcohol accumulation prevents uptake".

As far as YAN is concerned, Fermentis suggest that one of their newer yeasts (TF6) requires >0.9 mg/L of YAN to 1g/L of sugar (i.e a SG1.050 juice with 110g/L sugar needs at least 100ppm of YAN). This could well apply to other high nutrient demand yeasts in ciders which have less than the needed level of nutrients.

So how much YAN do apples typically have? The research is all over the place, ranging from less than 100ppm to a sample spread of 27ppm to 574ppm. The answer is..."don't know!", but it seems that adding YAN to cider might be more useful than not adding YAN if you want to ensure complete fermentation.

So, what is the answer to failed carbonation?..."you pays your money and makes your choices."

 

[MikeCo]

Adding bottling yeast is important IMO for anything that's been aged a long time and/or is high alcohol. You may not need bottling yeast for shorter aged or low alcohol beers, but adding yeast won't do any harm. It's good insurance that your bottles will be carbonated properly in a reasonable amount of time. Be sure to use yeast that can tolerate the beer's alcohol level.

1. Make sure you are adding enough priming sugar; use a good calculator and a scale to weight the sugar. Be sure to know the correct volume of the beer. Some bottling buckets have gallon markings that are way off.
2. Rehydrate the yeast in a small amount of sterile water and stir it into a cream. I do this mainly to help it mix evenly in the beer with the priming solution.
3. Keep bottles warm - 72 to 75F if possible for a few weeks to allow faster carbonation.

I usually use about 4g of bottling yeast for a 5 gallon batch. I only bottle higher ABV and barrel aged beers.