Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

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The CaraAroma has roasty flavor. I was so happy when I stumbled into a decent description of it, which is why I went this route instead of British 135/160.
 
I've been watching this thread for a malt breakthrough. I'm going to brew this beer next with stonebrewer's hop schedule and the 13.5% Cara Aroma / 86.5% 2-Row malts, WL007, 149F mash. I bought a 22oz bottle of the commercial beer today at Costco.

Does anyone have a recommendation for chloride & sulfate levels for this beer? My typical for a hop-focused American beer is 50 ppm Cl and 150 ppm SO4.

I have a batch of Stone Ruination almost ready for dry hopping.
 
reddskinnfan said:
So, here it is!

Color is VERY close. Mine is on the right. It might be 1 SRM off and most likely just needs to clear a little more. Grain taste is so close it's hard to tell them apart!!! Hops are tad (and I mean VERY little) more toward the bitter end of spectrum in the real deal AB, but again hard to tell. Aroma is a little more fruity in the clone attempt, but that is probably the yeast (since Stone's yeast is actually proprietary). Hop flavor is spot on!

All in all this is a success and a step in the right direction! Put side by side, I don't think anyone would be able to discern which is which.

My next attempt will be:

Grain:

85% 2-Row
15% CaraAroma

Hop additions:

3 oz FWH
1 oz 20
.5 oz 15
.5 oz 10
.5 oz 5
.5 oz 0

-Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, that looks really good. I'm ready for my first attempt, starter is in fridge, but have a few Qs.


  • Did you brew the recipe listed under your "attempt #2" a couple pages back or something much closer to the one listed above?
  • In the bulk buy thread you mentioned dropping the CaraAroma to 12-13%. Have you reconsidered based on flavor rather than color.
  • Do you use (Rahr) Pale malt or standard 2-row?
  • Are your leaf hops indeed 9.8% AA? I'm building mine for hop pellets and those things are 14.2% AA (!), so I need to make some careful adjustments. Your hop schedule in "attempt #2" as listed is very different than the one above. Should I follow this one instead and forego the #2?
 
reddskinnfan said:
Okay, gents, here we go.

I am brewing my attempt at Arrogant Bastard on 3/29. I have a 3.5L starter of WLP007 going right now, which I will step up again with another 3.5L on Friday, after work.

I am going off my previous attempt at this, and the work put into this "clone" by Stonebrewer, Ultravista and TrickyDick.

As noted by the others, and which is my personal opinion as well, Special B is off in this recipe. However, it isn't that far off. Special B has a raisin/date flavor to it which is just a little "over-the-top". C120 and C150 get you close on color, but lack the flavor profile. So, I got to thinking.... I know, dangerous!

What grains follow closely in Special B's footsteps. Rather, what grains were created to meet the needs of brewers who didn't have access to Special B. Well, there were two that caught my attention.. Weyermann CaraAroma and British (Munton/Baird) Dark Crystal.

Well, Stonebrewer already tried the British Crystal and thought it was close, but still not quite right. So, I am going for CaraAroma. CaraAroma has a less sharp dark fruit (plum/raising/fig) flavor, has a more pronounced aroma profile, and is reported to be a little more "roastiness". I have also heard that CaraAroma has a tendency to provide more red color than just contributing to darkness.

As such, here is what I am doing:

Arrogant Bastard Clone - Old Ale (19 A)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 10.50 gal
Boil Size: 13.69 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 11.44 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 10.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Date: 29 Mar 2014
Brewer: Michael Clements
Equipment: Keggle
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.6 %

Ingredients:

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
22 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.5 %
3 lbs 8.0 oz Caraaroma (130.0 SRM) Grain 2 13.5 %
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 3 34.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 4 31.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 9.0 IBUs
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 7.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 5.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 3.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [9.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]

Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color:

Est Original Gravity: 1.067 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.2 %
Bitterness: 91.2 IBUs
Est Color: 20.5 SRM
Measured Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.3 %
Calories: 233.4 kcal/12oz

Mash Profile:

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Sparge Water: 8.68 gal
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE
Total Grain Weight: 26 lbs
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.20
Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 32.74 qt of water at 161.3 F 148.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (1.81gal, 6.87gal) of 168.0 F water
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
Carbonation Type: Keg
Pressure/Weight: 12.54 PSI
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 45.0 F
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Keg with 12.54 PSI
Age for: 30.00 days
Storage Temperature: 65.0 F
Click to expand...

IslandLizard said:
Mike, that looks really good. I'm ready for my first attempt, starter is in fridge, but have a few Qs.


  • Did you brew the recipe listed under your "attempt #2" a couple pages back or something much closer to the one listed above?
  • In the bulk buy thread you mentioned dropping the CaraAroma to 12-13%. Have you reconsidered based on flavor rather than color.
  • Do you use (Rahr) Pale malt or standard 2-row?
  • Are your leaf hops indeed 9.8% AA? I'm building mine for hop pellets and those things are 14.2% AA (!), so I need to make some careful adjustments. Your hop schedule in "attempt #2" as listed is very different than the one above. Should I follow this one instead and forego the #2?
Click to expand...

Okay, I just looked at my BeerSmith 2 files. It was 13.5% CaraAroma (and 86.5% Rahr 2-row) so the drop to 12% would drop it down from 20.5 SRM to 18.5 SRM (noticeable enough to address the slightly darker color).

As far as hops, here is my exact schedule and AA% (two different AA%):

1.5 Chinook (14.3%) - FWH
1.5 Chinook (14.3%) - 90
1.0 Chinook (14.3%) - 20

2 Whirfloc - 15

.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 15
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 10
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 5
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 0

WLP007 - 3.5L starter

-Mike
 
reddskinnfan said:
Okay, I just looked at my BeerSmith 2 files. It was 13.5% CaraAroma (and 86.5% Rahr 2-row) so the drop to 12% would drop it down from 20.5 SRM to 18.5 SRM (noticeable enough to address the slightly darker color).

As far as hops, here is my exact schedule and AA% (two different AA%):

1.5 Chinook (14.3%) - FWH
1.5 Chinook (14.3%) - 90
1.0 Chinook (14.3%) - 20

2 Whirfloc - 15

.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 15
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 10
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 5
.50 oz Chinook (9.8%) - 0

WLP007 - 3.5L starter

-Mike
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the exact as-brewed recipe. I always tweak the last minute too. Are all those Chinooks leaf, but different crops? Quite a drop there.

I may brew it then with 12% CaraAroma but use Pale Malt instead of standard 2-row. Or is that a bad idea? I got plenty of both, just trying to keep the malt balanced, without much color change.

What did you do brewing water wise? 50 ppm Cl- and 150 ppm SO4--?
From what I remember tasting it was a bit sulfate-y and perhaps more from MgSO4 than Ca2SO4. Just a small detail, though.
 
IslandLizard said:
Thank you so much for the exact as-brewed recipe. I always tweak the last minute too. Are all those Chinooks leaf, but different crops? Quite a drop there.

I may brew it then with 12% CaraAroma but use Pale Malt instead of standard 2-row. Or is that a bad idea? I got plenty of both, just trying to keep the malt balanced, without much color change.

What did you do brewing water wise? 50 ppm Cl- and 150 ppm SO4--?
From what I remember tasting it was a bit sulfate-y and perhaps more from MgSO4 than Ca2SO4. Just a small detail, though.
Click to expand...

Go ahead with the Pale malt. Worth a shot.

Chinook were too different sets of leaf. One from 2012 and one from 2013.

I forgot to add gypsum to my water. It could benefit from some additional Sulfur.
 
ultravista said:
Has anyone attempted up scaling this to the Double Bastard?
Click to expand...

Very doubtful since Mike just got it into a bottle recently. Think several of us will try brewing it and then maybe, just maybe, someone will try to translate it into DB. After I try a bottle of this, I likely will try to brew a batch myself. Got CaraAroma coming in our next group buy, so should be a perfect time this fall to brew this monster again...
 
Two weeks in bottle and two days in fridge soakin' up the CO2.

I am absolutely convinced that CaraAroma is the malt in A.B.

I just need to drop it to 12% and remember my gypsum next time!

Other than that, this will be brewed again, the exact same way, in a little less than 2 months.

1404602325830.jpg
 
Hi Guys, I've been watching this thread for awhile now and since there are near 90 pages on this one it's hard to totally keep track of what the original changes have been from the very beginning of this thread. If you look at the first message a Quote about Jamil's thoughts on changes seem to differ from where we are now. Could someone who is very steeped on this thread break down the changes that have proven to be beneficial and the ones that have not? I think the CaraAroma addition is a good one but would also like to know what the thoughts out there are on Jamil's original changes on the late hop changes and what brewers have actually discovered. I have a recipe that is quite different and will be brewed in the next 10 days but of course it will be 6 to 8 weeks (at a minimum) till we know how close it is.
 
ultravista said:
reddskinnfan - do you know if Stone uses CaraAroma in any of their other beers?
Click to expand...

Not to my knowledge, but it is a rumored "mistake" beer. How easy would it be mix "Cara"Aroma bags in with "Cara"mel bags???

Either way, ultravista, I think you need to try on your own and see what you figure out with this recipe. I could tell you all day long that I think it's CaraAroma, but you may think another malt is closer. Just sayin'...
 
I'm with you regarding CaraAroma, I think I'll give it a shot for the next brew. I've tried Special B, C150, and C120 (three diff. batches).

I have about a pound of Chinook in the freezer and thinking about doing a Double Bastard, perhaps oaked (first time trying oak too) w/bourbon.

The OG for DB should be somewhere around 1.104-06. I've brewed Belgians that high so no worries there.

I have a contact at a local brewery that can supply me with fresh WLP001. I may give it a try instead of 007.
 
Bottles are ready, fellas. I am loving splitting batches (10 gallons) between 22 oz bottles and a Corny. Doesn't make me feel like I am backed up in the pipeline and always have a few bottles from each batch just hanging around....
 
Caraaroma is what I use and feel that it is as close to a clone as I can get. Side by side comparisons with (grey import) AB had it the identical colour and near to identical taste. Difference can be attributed to using the locally available base malt (Aus). Now freshness of product may have been an issue though it compares favourably with a fresh bottle I had in LA, though I've not been fortunate to have it fresh on tap. Coincidently, I'm sipping on my clone as I type.
 
Scaling the recipe to 11% and higher IBU (not sure). I may perhaps use medium oak, 3-4 ounces, with Maker's Mark.
 
Ultravista, I would strongly caution you to not use the 001 over the 007 the attenuation rate differences are going to make that a very dry beer with no sweetness to overcome the hop level. There are other yeast you could substitute but 001 would be one of my last on this one. Just say'en

ultravista said:
I'm with you regarding CaraAroma, I think I'll give it a shot for the next brew. I've tried Special B, C150, and C120 (three diff. batches).

I have about a pound of Chinook in the freezer and thinking about doing a Double Bastard, perhaps oaked (first time trying oak too) w/bourbon.

The OG for DB should be somewhere around 1.104-06. I've brewed Belgians that high so no worries there.

I have a contact at a local brewery that can supply me with fresh WLP001. I may give it a try instead of 007.
Click to expand...
 
docrw said:
Ultravista, I would strongly caution you to not use the 001 over the 007 the attenuation rate differences are going to make that a very dry beer with no sweetness to overcome the hop level. There are other yeast you could substitute but 001 would be one of my last on this one. Just say'en
Click to expand...

If you have access to the Mangrove Jacks yeasts, supposedly the M07 is the dry version of WLP007? If your looking for a dry yeast that is.
 
stonebrewer - I am in Las Vegas Nevada :D.

Back to 001 v 007. 007 attenuation is 70-80% while 001 is 73-80%.

007 being a dry ale yeast, wouldn't it dry it out more than 001?
 
I am trying this on my next batch. I have 6 oz of Chinook in the freezer. I just need to get some caraaroma and some yeast.
 
ultravista said:
stonebrewer - I am in Las Vegas Nevada :D.

Back to 001 v 007. 007 attenuation is 70-80% while 001 is 73-80%.

007 being a dry ale yeast, wouldn't it dry it out more than 001?
Click to expand...

You are correct! My data was wrong showing 85% on 001, thanks Brewtarget... :confused:
 
Well, just had a party last night with about 25 people. The AB keg had maybe 4 beers pulled from it before the party. I had two other beers on tap (Lemon Pepper Saison and Belma Blonde). The AB was killed in short order, along with the Blonde. The Lemon Pepper Saison is almost gone, too. I got a lot of "man is this the real Arrogant Bastard" comments. Was happy with result and can't wait to go for my next one, with slightly less CaraAroma and the gypsum addition.

Prost!
 
That's 12% CaraAroma? Do you have your recent recipe in a Beersmith file to share?

How close is the aroma, bitterness, and hopiness?
 
fixitoscar said:
ok here is my 2nd version of this. I'm really enjoying drinking my version 1. This one should be a lot closer.
upping color by 3 srm by adding more c150, upping bittering for more bite. upping finishing hops for more late hop character. Also slightly higher ferment temps for a little alcohol taste.
I'll brew this this weekend.

1.077 og @ 75% eff.
wlp 007
srm 24.5
111 ibu
84.5% domestic 2 row
11.9% c150
2.7% c75
5 oz hops all chinook

2 oz @ 90 min.
.25 oz @20 min.
.25 oz @ 15 min.
.5 oz @ 10 min.
.5 oz @ 5 min.
1.5 oz @ 0 min.
Click to expand...

Ok had my tasting last night. Much Much closer than my v1 attemp.
20140724_211200_zpsga7gnavp.jpg


Color is really close AB has a shade more red mine is a shade more brown.

Hops..initial bitterness is close but AB still edges mine out. finish hops are dead on. Nice lingering hop taste on the tongue after you swallow.

malt character. Mine has more of a dark sweetness in the middle. Not overpowering at all but not AB. AB is much more subdued and in the background.

Overall I very happy with how close it is now just being the second try for me. Its still not cloned but its close. I think the biggest issues I have are getting the color down to that nice shade of red and cutting down on the malt sweetness.

Will dropping a srm point bring it more red? If so this will also help with the
malt problem.

When its time to rebrew I'll adjust color, mash lower, and maybe drop another .25 oz of hops at 90 min.
I don't plan on brewing this again for a while. I have an itch for other styles.
 
A couple more shots, a few months in and after clearing. Bitterness and flavor are spot on. Hop aroma is still subdued. Will be getting a bottle of AB tomorrow to do side by side color comparison now that beer is clear.

1408148018002.jpg


1408148026955.jpg
 

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