Can u make cider on top of the trub from beer primary?

[Nubiwan]

sorry for duplication here. Posted something smilar in the beginners forum, but not sure it was the right spot to ask, so here goes.

Almost certain I read a post on here where someone claimed they simply poured 5 gallons of 100% apple juice over the trub from an ale they just bottled in order to make an Apfel Wine or cider. What's the difference is another question?

I tried to search the same post again, but have been unable to find it.

So, my questions is obviously, does this work? Will the yeast reawaken and ferment the sugars in the Apple juice? Will the end result be a cider, or a wine? Or a load of crap?

If it does work, then do I need to agitate the trub at all to get the "yeast activated"? Stir it up type thing? I assume no point in taking an OG (perhaps from the Apple juice directly).

Do I need to add more or different yeast? What about more fermentables? DME, sugars, honey? Can I just add 2 or 3 gallons of Apple juice, instead of 5, and get a similar tasting end product?

Before someone suggests it, I know there is an Ed Wort post dedicated to making Apfel wine, but it's not quite the same as I am asking here, as that's from scratch type thing, and not using an existing beer trub.

Anyway, thanks in advance.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Would it not be easier to simply buy a packet of wine yeast for a dollar and avoid lots of potential problems?

I use "apfelwein" and "cider" interchangeably.
"Apple wine" had added sugar to significantly increase ABV.
Anything unfermented is "juice" or "must".
Not everyone agrees.

 

[Blacksmith1]

I remember reading that same post. The problem is the best search terms to find it bring 1.2 million results.
IIRC the only issue might be a slight flavoring from the little bit of left over beer in said trub.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

it will work fine, as long as you like the kind of yeast you were using in the beer. Sure, cider is different, but it will work. Whether or not it is the best option is another questions, and much more complicated.

 

[S-Met]

Beer yeast does well with ciders, you will be fine. Alcohol tolerance may be lower, but if you are just using apple without added sugars, it will ferment dry (1.000).

 

[papz]

Yes, you can use the yeast cake from a beer to make a cider. Yes, you can just put the juice on top of the cake.
Yes, you can do 3 gallons instead of 5.
Yes, the flavor may be different than if you just put 5 gallons of apple juice into a starter of (insert yeast strain x here)
Will it taste better???? Maybe... Taste is subjective anyways.
Yes... some people on here cry if you call anything with sugar added a cider and not an apfelwein.
No....it does not matter what anyone calls it.
Make it, share it, drink it, enjoy it.
I do suggest taking the gravity reading from the juice itself before adding the yeast. I also suggest shaking the hell out of it once you do add the yeast to wake them back up.
Best of luck to you.

 

[madscientist451]

A few years back I did some yeast trials with cider and some beer yeast strains worked better than others for me.
My go-to yeast these days for cider is Cider House Select and 71-B.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yes, you can use the yeast cake from a beer to make a cider. Yes, you can just put the juice on top of the cake.
Yes, you can do 3 gallons instead of 5.
Yes, the flavor may be different than if you just put 5 gallons of apple juice into a starter of (insert yeast strain x here)
Will it taste better???? Maybe... Taste is subjective anyways.
Yes... some people on here cry if you call anything with sugar added a cider and not an apfelwein.
No....it does not matter what anyone calls it.
Make it, share it, drink it, enjoy it.
I do suggest taking the gravity reading from the juice itself before adding the yeast. I also suggest shaking the hell out of it once you do add the yeast to wake them back up.
Best of luck to you.

Hey thanks for that Papz.

How about warming up some of that apple juice to help me breakdown the trub and stir it? Trub gets pretty sticky to the base of the pale. Ok to break it all down and stir it in?

Not talking boil, just hot. Figure I'd heat maybe a gallon, and stir my trub up with that. Then add whatever remaining gallons.

 

[S-Met]

Hey thanks for that Papz.

How about warming up some of that apple juice to help me breakdown the trub and stir it? Trub gets pretty sticky to the base of the pale. Ok to break it all down and stir it in?

Not talking boil, just hot. Figure I'd heat maybe a gallon, and stir my trub up with that. Then add whatever remaining gallons.

Not necessary, but if heating, keep it under 125. Much warmr and you may set pectins (cloudy) but more importantly, change the flavor from fresh to cooked apples.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Mmmmm, apple pie cider.
Does that work? Or does it come out nothing like apple pie?

 

[Nubiwan]

Mmmmm, apple pie cider.
Does that work? Or does it come out nothing like apple pie?

Crusty????

 

[Darthbrewder]

Yes this will work. Don’t heat anything. Shake the crap out of eat bottle of juice before you add to the fermenter. If you are concerned about the yeast not being in suspension then give the fermenter a little swirl after you add the juice. Cheers!

 

[ebbelwoi]

Make sure you leave a lot of headspace when you pour the apple juice on the old yeast cake. That's a large amount of yeast to start out with, and when it all starts munching on the new sugar at the same time, it's going to be a big ol' yeast party.

 

[papz]

Cider doesn't get as foamy as beer normally.
What type of yeast you have i'm sure affects this but headspace has never been an issue doing this and i make a LOT of cider.

 

[Zambezi Special]

Nice idea, and since I have just bottled my first batch of beer and had some liters of apple juice around, I have just given it a try
We'll see what happens

 

[ebbelwoi]

Cider doesn't get as foamy as beer normally.
What type of yeast you have i'm sure affects this but headspace has never been an issue doing this and i make a LOT of cider.

Well, it was an issue for me with Kirkland juice and Nottingham at warm-ish temps. Glad to hear it hasn't been an issue for you, but it can be for others.

 

[Nubiwan]

Nice idea, and since I have just bottled my first batch of beer and had some liters of apple juice around, I have just given it a try
We'll see what happens

Gonna bottle my ale today and put the apple juice on my trub. How is your cider coming along?

 

[Nubiwan]

Below are pictures of my cider experiment on my recentlty bottled red ale trub

Pics top to bottom:

1) apple juice 100% no additives except Vit C

2) The wort after essentially throwing apple juice on trub. got nice and aerated. Mixed up pretty good as you can see by the cloudy appearance.

3) My head space

Have some concerns over potential for contamination from the old scud from my ale Krausen. Will take my chances. It was $20 for the juice, and took 5 minutes to pour the bottles in the pale. Might lead to disappointment in 4-6 weeks, but its the chance you take. All done within an hour after bottling - fingers crossed. Kept the apple juice below the scud line as well. 21 liters. sg was 1.044 in the juice - so might get a 5.7 ish ABV.

 

[edubz]

I've done that plenty of times. It's "OK". I have a couple friends that really like it. Ive played around with adding tart cherry juice post fermentation. We've added brown sugar to spike alcohal. It was fun.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Keep us updated. Hope it turns out good.

 

[Nubiwan]

Well, its about 5 hours in, and that airlock is bubbling every 12 seconds, so its no slouch. Faster than anything I ever brewed before.

I usually put a blow off on my beer because it can get really active. Am I going to need one for cider? Was told cider does not generate a great deal of activity. So far its the most active thing I have seen in brewing.

Don't want to confront a mess tomorrow morning with my air lock full of Krausen ****.

Temps are 68 degrees in room, so assume that is a good range for cider and will do my bottled Ale no harm either.

 

[Nubiwan]

I've done that plenty of times. It's "OK". I have a couple friends that really like it. Ive played around with adding tart cherry juice post fermentation. We've added brown sugar to spike alcohal. It was fun.

If I get a high 5 ABV, then think I'll be happy with that. Starting to think I am going to like cider..... Assume I have to wait couple months for best results.

 

[Nubiwan]

One last question or 10.

My primary is very cloudy. Can I expect that to clear over a few weeks? Pectin Enzyme needed for that, or just wait it out? Can I add Pectin now? Later? I live in Canada, so cold crashing in the greater outdoors is available to me.

Have read that apple juices (which I used) are a little too sweet to retain apple flavours. That maybe I should use some additives - tannins and/or acids (malic) I think were suggested. Any thoughts?

How long to age in primary? Is it done when stopped fermenting, or best to leave it for a month or two or more in primnary?

I eventually plan to bottle. Is it better to carbonate, or simply bottle? Can I use the beer chart for carbonating (priming) cider? How long to age in bottle?

 

[papz]

One last question or 10.

My primary is very cloudy. Can I expect that to clear over a few weeks?

Yes

Pectin Enzyme needed for that,

No

Have read that apple juices (which I used) are a little too sweet to retain apple flavours. That maybe I should use some additives - tannins and/or acids (malic) I think were suggested. Any thoughts?

Don't.......
Make it as is and decide if YOU like it or not.
If you do....then no need for extra BS
If you don't....make the next batch with said extra BS

How long to age in primary? Is it done when stopped fermenting, or best to leave it for a month or two or more in primnary?

Low ABV ciders..... i do inbetween 2-4 weeks, longer times don't hurt up till after 12 weeks (sometimes longer is fine too)

I eventually plan to bottle. Is it better to carbonate, or simply bottle? Can I use the beer chart for carbonating (priming) cider? How long to age in bottle?

I keg myself..... the CO2 chart should be the same for cider.
Hope this helps.

 

[S-Met]

Well, its about 5 hours in, and that airlock is bubbling every 12 seconds, so its no slouch. Faster than anything I ever brewed before.

Remember that you pitched on a massive active colony. No lag time here.

I get a high 5 ABV, then think I'll be happy with that.

If you added no additional sugar, most store juice ferments between 5-6%

One last question or 10.

My primary is very cloudy. Can I expect that to clear over a few weeks? Pectin Enzyme needed for that, or just wait it out? Can I add Pectin now? Later? I live in Canada, so cold crashing in the greater outdoors is available to me.

Have read that apple juices (which I used) are a little too sweet to retain apple flavours. That maybe I should use some additives - tannins and/or acids (malic) I think were suggested. Any thoughts?

How long to age in primary? Is it done when stopped fermenting, or best to leave it for a month or two or more in primnary?

I eventually plan to bottle. Is it better to carbonate, or simply bottle? Can I use the beer chart for carbonating (priming) cider? How long to age in bottle?

Will clear naturally but pectic enzyme "may" speed things up. Remenber the sayng, "Time clears all brews." A cold crash and gelatin will help too, but again, time clears all brews.

Apple flavor: very yeast dependent, but I've been happy with beer yeast. More time may allow flavor to shine through. Even though primary may be done, cider usually benefits from patience. 8-16 weeks.

Personally, I prefer low abv ciders to be carbonated. I goon the higher end of the carb chart, 2.5-3.5 volumes. I usually keg with priming sugar to approx 3 vol and adjust with gas if its not to my liking.
Since you are bottling ,maybe try a few at lower and higher volumes to see what you like. When I bottle, I use sparkling bottles as they can handle higher pressures.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Addressing your blowoff question, how much headspace do you have? If it’s more an inch or two, I think you will be fine. If it makes you rest easier then put the blow off on there, but I don’t think you will need it.

Just think of this as an experiment. If you have never brewed cider before then you are going to be surprised at the result. If you like the results or not is up to your own personal tastes.

Pectic enzyme- I don’t know if adding it now will actually do anything, positive or negative. I do know traditionally that you add it up front, before the yeast.

I wouldn’t add anything extra to this. Like I said earlier, this is an experiment, try one thing at a time.

Aging this will be up to your tastes. This is a low abv cider so, honestly I do not think it will need to be aged long, provided the yeast is kept happy.

Once it is done fermenting, no more activity, 1.000 gravity, Then it is finished. I have found that I enjoy a carbonated cider more than still. When you pull a sample to test the gravity, taste some. Maybe bottle some without priming sugar and some with. Considering this is a low abv, I think you will prefer this carbonated. I would carbonate it, if it was me. I don’t know what beer chart you are referring to, but if you are using a bottle/beer priming calculator then yes, you can use the chart.

Bottle it up and let it go for a week, test one. Then test another one a week later. Then test another one a week after that. I am willing to bet that once this is carbed, it will be a nice crisp, dry cider. Since it will be low abv I don’t think it will age well, but YMMV.

 

[Nubiwan]

........

Bottle it up and let it go for a week, test one. Then test another one a week later. Then test another one a week after that. I am willing to bet that once this is carbed, it will be a nice crisp, dry cider. Since it will be low abv I don’t think it will age well, but YMMV.

First of all, thanks all for the awesome replies. Getting pretty pumped about my cider now.

Darth: Does highlighted comment above imply a lower ABV cider will start to go off/sour/skanky after a while. Or just not age any further/better?

Should I make plans to distribute to family and friends? How long will it keep? I have about 20 dozen home brew already bottled.

Was hoping this cider be good for the summer. Might be too early.



Nubiwan feels like he knows Darthbrewder - the force is strong with this one!

 

[Nubiwan]

......
Since you are bottling ,maybe try a few at lower and higher volumes to see what you like. When I bottle, I use sparkling bottles as they can handle higher pressures.

Been using Grolsch bottles for my beer. I have collected a fair few of them and its just under a pint in each. I will likely use them for my Cider.

If I do over carbonate will the cider not bomb and/or produce a big head when poured? Does cider act differently to beer when carbed?

Exactly what is a sparkling bottle? You mean wine bottles?

 

[timman01]

When I bottle condition my cider, I use 1 can of frozen apple juice concentrate as my priming sugar. It’s the right amount for a 5 gallon batch and helps bring out the apple flavor.

 

[papz]

Exactly what is a sparkling bottle? You mean wine bottles?

He means bottles rated for carbonation......
WINE BOTTLES ARE NOT RATED FOR CARBONATION.
Do NOT try to carb in them.
Champagne bottles and beer bottles are rated for carbonation. (thicker glass)